Beautiful
Well-Known Member
I dont even know what to say. Sorry you think that way.
This Is Not What I Am, excerpt from the Yamaka Sutta
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No, really, read the rules.. I enjoy a good discussion, and personal takes on things, but religious instruction "let's find out together"-style is off topic here.
Yes? What's your point?
Beautiful
Well-Known Member
Precisley, you enjoy a good discussion. I don't discuss or argue. It is only a conversation, as if in between great friends. I consider you my fellow brothers and sisters. I think we should speak with care and affection towards eachother, and uncover the beauty and secrets of life together...Not you holding your beliefs and I holding mine, you with your oppinions and me with mine... and then we smash are heads against eachother. That is just nonsense. We are better than that.
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Beautiful
Well-Known Member
So you are saying that even when clinically dead, they arent considered dead to you?
That's how I see it. If it was reversible, then it wasn't death.
NDEs are fascinating, but at best, they give us clues about the extremes of life, rather than actual death. The "N" in NDE stands for "near", after all.
Learning about each other's beliefs. You can be a teacher on other forums, there are plenty out there.
Beautiful
Well-Known Member
If you knew how much I am learning from you, you would see that in fact you are the teacher here.
Beautiful
Well-Known Member
No, you said "if they didn't die" its not a NDE. So I said "what if they are clinically dead?" And you said "That does not mean they are dead." So you just made a new definition for what death is.
So you know what death is?
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@Beautiful, as Cino notes, we are very careful about not having the site become an instructional source. Discussions and sharing view points for the sake of interfaith purposes, however, are very welcome and you’ve made many such contributions already and I look forward to seeing more.
Like vanilla essence?
I hope I "smell" something good after death .. I would be quite happy with "cease to be",
but that does not look very likely, imo.
I exist now, so why not before my birth or after my death???
According to top scientists, "now" is just an illusion, so it is NOT just a case of "science v religion",
however much one wishes it to be so.
Beautiful
Well-Known Member
I don't know either.
I think that it may be of interest that:
"Near-death experiences often occur in association with cardiac arrest. Prior studies found that 10–20 seconds following cardiac arrest, electroencephalogram measurements generally find no significant measureable brain cortical electrical activity.6 A prolonged, detailed, lucid experience following cardiac arrest should not be possible, yet this is reported in many NDEs. This is especially notable given the prolonged period of amnesia that typically precedes and follows recovery from cardiac arrest."
Anyway, I'm curious what you think about the content of these experiences always being so awe inspiring and specific? They always seem to be about the same thing, right?
Even when the people they happen to are skeptics and not religious at all, like myself coincidentally
Obviously these experiences also ocurr outside of NDE's, for example the life of art prodigy Akiane Kramarik:
And buddhism is based on the things that happen to meditators. Buddha was a meditator and his teaching is founded on meditation. Its all about the shocking and unexpected secrets that take place in the field of knowledge; of infinite consciousness; of meditation.
I'm curious why these experiences are always about trascendence. Why is it always about going beyond and learning cosmic knowledge and feeling cosmic love. Why does the brain have this cosmic/spiritual agenda it wants to teach ? (Think of Akiane, who had her visions as a mere child and thus had no possible way of having spiritual knowledge beforehand)
Im really curious what you think about this phenomena, Cino. And anyone can chime in too ♡
Pleasure to meet you and thank you @StevePame
I think that it may be of interest that:
"Near-death experiences often occur in association with cardiac arrest. Prior studies found that 10–20 seconds following cardiac arrest, electroencephalogram measurements generally find no significant measureable brain cortical electrical activity.6 A prolonged, detailed, lucid experience following cardiac arrest should not be possible, yet this is reported in many NDEs. This is especially notable given the prolonged period of amnesia that typically precedes and follows recovery from cardiac arrest."
Anyway, I'm curious what you think about the content of these experiences always being so awe inspiring and specific? They always seem to be about the same thing, right?
Even when the people they happen to are skeptics and not religious at all, like myself coincidentally
Obviously these experiences also ocurr outside of NDE's, for example the life of art prodigy Akiane Kramarik:
And buddhism is based on the things that happen to meditators. Buddha was a meditator and his teaching is founded on meditation. Its all about the shocking and unexpected secrets that take place in the field of knowledge; of infinite consciousness; of meditation.
I'm curious why these experiences are always about trascendence. Why is it always about going beyond and learning cosmic knowledge and feeling cosmic love. Why does the brain have this cosmic/spiritual agenda it wants to teach ? (Think of Akiane, who had her visions as a mere child and thus had no possible way of having spiritual knowledge beforehand)
Im really curious what you think about this phenomena, Cino. And anyone can chime in too ♡
Pleasure to meet you and thank you @StevePame
Interpretation of hallucinations beyond our brain connections being jumbled are tenuous.
I am not saying all NDEs hallucinations, simply observing my times, "dead" (no light, no NDEs) and my subsequent ICU delerium and hallucinations, which I "observed". I'd ask those in the room, are there bugs everywhere, do you see that fairy crawling out the brick, are the walls covered with Arabic writing?. When they answered no, I would describe to them the hallucination I was having in as much detail as I could...to their consternation and enjoyment.
Had I been inclined to view it as such, my hallucinations could have easily been attributed to the supernatural or visions into other dimensions, openings to the divine, what have you.
I am not saying all NDEs hallucinations, simply observing my times, "dead" (no light, no NDEs) and my subsequent ICU delerium and hallucinations, which I "observed". I'd ask those in the room, are there bugs everywhere, do you see that fairy crawling out the brick, are the walls covered with Arabic writing?. When they answered no, I would describe to them the hallucination I was having in as much detail as I could...to their consternation and enjoyment.
Had I been inclined to view it as such, my hallucinations could have easily been attributed to the supernatural or visions into other dimensions, openings to the divine, what have you.
Interesting! It is enticing to draw certain conclusions from this, so here are some points to keep in mind:
- False memories. A cardiac arrest can be a traumatic experience. Trauma seems to make a person more susceptible to false memories.
- Dream time vs clock time. A dream can seem to take place over a long period of time, yet to an external observer looking at the dreamer, it might be a few seconds.
- Regarding the content: there's this phenomenon called selection bias.
This does not make them less interesting to me!
Anyway, I'm curious what you think about the content of these experiences always being so awe inspiring and specific? They always seem to be about the same thing, right?
I'm not sure they are always about the same thing. So there are reports of people "witnessing" the surgeons operating on their bodies, reports of experiencers moving around the hospital or even outside the building, out-of-body-experience style; reports of hellish places, reports of meeting ancestors or loved ones, reports of meeting deities or spirits, and many other types of reports. So yes, far-out experiences, but quite a variety.
Even when the people they happen to are skeptics and not religious at all, like myself coincidentally
You had an NDE? Wow! Now I'm even more curious to hear your story. No pressure
Well, I'm a meditator, and I have received a little formal training from a Buddhist teacher. The big flashy experiences tend to get downplayed by those whom I respect for the depth of their experience. Zen calls them "makyo"; Sanskrit traditions call them miccha - in fact, the "wrong" as in "wrong view" is the same word. So the tenor is, when meditating, don't get distracted by the lights and faces.
Me, I enjoy a good trippy meditation experience as much as the next person! I've just learned not to be too impressed by any of it, or by myself if I chance upon one.
Meh, I seem to not get those. Maybe it's a personal thing? Maybe the unpleasant experiences, the creepy-crawlies, the dread at the threshold, or the unremarkable refreshment type experiences don't get recounted as much? "Nothing happened" doesn't have much to show for, especially when compared to Cosmic Consciousness or immeasurable Love or The Eternal Now?
I didn't know about her, that's an interesting story!
But I don't buy the "no possible way of having spiritual knowledge" part. I know I had funny dreams and daydreams as a child, and my child did in turn. And her family seems to be really into religious experimentation, so she had a frame of reference for her paintings. Apparently, that famous painting of Jesus was inspired by someone who was introduced to her specifically as a model.
Again, I'm not out to "debunk" or belittle any of this. Just giving my angle on things.
Edited to add: So why does the brain do this? I have no idea. I think that the unconscious psyche has all kinds of hidden (from the conscious part) agendas, some schools of psychology go as far as identifying individual parts of it, like the "shadow" or the "trickster" - or the wise teacher. So there are interpretations of these types of experience which bring it down to earth quite a bit, make it practical and something we can investigate and work with, which I like.
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Lol, exactly my thought! It made me certain how people could think G!d spoke to him if it was in a language I could read!!
Beautiful
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your time guys.
It seems to me like there's a lot of bias.
Her family was not religious, she made them religious. And artists get introduced to models because thats how you paint, it doesnt mean he didnt look like the visions she had of jesus--and the model coincidentally was a carpenter (pretty cool coincidence.) She has many paintings, not just that one. Every religion and spiritual image (pyramids and aliens alike) appear in her artwork. These are the facts. In my experience no 6 year old can be spiritual enough to paint the things she taught herself to paint through someone coaching her (imagining the story is fake. I encourage everyone to find out for themselves, investigate, have a talk with her, etc, and see if its real or fake.)
I find those experiences very interesting, Wil I hope you are doing better, my friend.
Naturally I have seen those three visions aswell. They are but the first infenitesimal steps of an infinite ladder. It is literally just the beggining, not the doorway, and definitley not cosmic consciousness. Its goes much more deeper, unimaginably deeper, unfathomable, impossible--it goes as far as you are willing to go, as far as your mind is willing to expand to, and will not go further to an untrained mind with attachments (I'm talking about myself when I say an untrained mind)
Notice, however, your aversion to the subject:
How do you know how the brain works? How do you know these experiences are consequence of it being jumbled?
Peace and love ❁
It seems to me like there's a lot of bias.
Her family was not religious, she made them religious. And artists get introduced to models because thats how you paint, it doesnt mean he didnt look like the visions she had of jesus--and the model coincidentally was a carpenter (pretty cool coincidence.) She has many paintings, not just that one. Every religion and spiritual image (pyramids and aliens alike) appear in her artwork. These are the facts. In my experience no 6 year old can be spiritual enough to paint the things she taught herself to paint through someone coaching her (imagining the story is fake. I encourage everyone to find out for themselves, investigate, have a talk with her, etc, and see if its real or fake.)
I find those experiences very interesting, Wil
I hope you are doing better, my friend.Naturally I have seen those three visions aswell. They are but the first infenitesimal steps of an infinite ladder. It is literally just the beggining, not the doorway, and definitley not cosmic consciousness. Its goes much more deeper, unimaginably deeper, unfathomable, impossible--it goes as far as you are willing to go, as far as your mind is willing to expand to, and will not go further to an untrained mind with attachments (I'm talking about myself when I say an untrained mind)
Notice, however, your aversion to the subject:
How do you know how the brain works? How do you know these experiences are consequence of it being jumbled?
Peace and love ❁
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I don't, my neurologists know much more than I.
I live in a world where I admire the I don't know, and I look askance at those that are sure they know.
Why am I such a skeptic?
Because there are sooo many that tell me they know!
I started betting on horses (at the race track) when I was 16, worked the track at 5am walking horses, went back to the track after school to bet.
9 horse race? You wanna bet the two horse to win? I'll play the track and take that bet every time!! Why because that is when I learned 'I don't know' wins... You are sure enough on the two horse...I don't know and will gladly take the other 8,.someone else wants to bet on the 5...I'll take the other 8...
Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Baha'i, Hindus, Taoists...many of them sure they know...
I don't.
Beautiful
Well-Known Member
The neurologist doesn't know the mind. She knows the physical, material aspects of the brain, not the phenomena of consciousness.
I dont see whats the point of pride in not having knowledge. The more things you know the better. You certainly wont learn how to play an instrument by hearing someone speak of it or play it--learning an instrument is an experience.
What these religions have in common is the understanding that awareness is infinite and other realms that you dont know of or even suspect exist really do exists. Through reason and logic the wise of the world have explained it. It was Socrates who said all I know is that I know nothing. If you know nothing, how do you know that awareness and consciousness have limits? The answer is; by proding the limits. These things are called Final Frontiers.
I dont see whats the point of pride in not having knowledge. The more things you know the better. You certainly wont learn how to play an instrument by hearing someone speak of it or play it--learning an instrument is an experience.
What these religions have in common is the understanding that awareness is infinite and other realms that you dont know of or even suspect exist really do exists. Through reason and logic the wise of the world have explained it. It was Socrates who said all I know is that I know nothing. If you know nothing, how do you know that awareness and consciousness have limits? The answer is; by proding the limits. These things are called Final Frontiers.
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