Beliefaith

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by wil, May 2, 2020.

  1. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Often it seems to be more like the case of a moth spiraling into the flame. The intensity obscuring all of the nuance the shadow offers, any sense of orientation and perspective.

    Better to chop wood, carry water and all that.

    And as a plus, no more suspension of disbelief necessary regarding the wood, water, light, or shadow, to nod at the original thread topic.
     
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  2. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Yes, the merchants in the temple, a lovely bunch. From my visit to an alpine pilgrimage place, I still have a plastic bottle of blessed water, in the shape of a pope, with a screw-on cap at the top.
     
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  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Fire and water in nature, represent the primal yin/yang opposites. But often the primal spiritual opposites are simplistically confused as the light and darkness that manifest in nature.

    As in Plato's cave, the shadow of the Spirit world is reflected as nature. So Light is the Shadow of God, and in nature the rising flame of fire must cling to the heavy wood that allows it to exist.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  4. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Staff Member

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    You got it. Speaking in terms of Divine light of course.
    Well, there you go. Well put!
    There is a passage in the Bhagavad Gita I think apropos here, in which Arjuna asks to see God in his truest form. Krishna agrees going on to say:

    "But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you Divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence."

    What follows for Arjuna is nothing short of complete sensory overload!
     
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  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    And sends him shaking to his knees. Brilliant. I love these interlinks which make you go: "Oh yeah!"
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    The lengths you have to go to as a deity, just to get people to slaughter each other.

    (Actually, the Song of the Lord always struck me as an example of the destructive spiral into the light. Arjunas teachers were on the other side, where they could not guide him through his epiphany...)
     
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    There's no one to guide you through that. It's you, and God -- that's it.

    It's always the knees part. They hate the knees part.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I can't think of any book that is more against physical war than the Bhagavad Gita. It is simplistic to employ the Bhagavad Gita's metaphor of spiritual war, as a call to physical conflict. Imo. But there are always going to be those to try ...
     
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  9. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    I think the issue is, a deity has to give people total freedom to do whatever they want to do, which often means letting people do terrible things.
     
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  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Men's hatred cannot stain the light. God does not depend upon man's logical approval or agreement. Imo
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  11. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Staff Member

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    Indeed. It's the classic battle of good vs evil. Krishna did everything possible to avoid conflict and reach an amicable solution, but at the end of the day it was, as it has always been, up to each individual to choose which path to follow. So, with conflict inevitable, Krishna offered each side the choice of either himself or his own army to wage war. The instigators took Krishna's army (that part always puts in mind of the fallen angles of Abrahamic lore) and the defenders, led by Arjuna, took Krishna himself. Arjuna was up against insurmountable odds, but Krishna needed, but one thing from him for good to prevail. His faith and belief. And so it goes to this day. Shall we kick Satan's butt or shall we join forces with him...?
     
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  12. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Please excuse if my quip caused offence. Maybe my reading of the Gita is too influenced by the ancient Greek bravado of the opening lines of the Iliad, and the scheming gods of that epic.
     
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  13. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Ha! Like that analogy.

    That should be the Silver Rule, after the Golden Rule.

    When I look back my Dad was basically, Golden Rule so taken for granted it didn't need saying, and "Never argue religion or politics" — wise words, and experienced, I think, from someone who grew up in rural Ireland in the first half of the 20th century.

    Mum was 'away with the fairies', Dad was a 'chop wood, carry water' kind of guy.
     
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  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Excuse me. That is how a theist would look at it. However, my reading of BhagawadGita is different. What the later Vaishnavas made Gita into is not what it started with. Please remember, Prabhupada's translation is heavily biased in favor of his sect's views. He puts in words which are not their in the verse. Krishna's advice was to a dithering soldier, who was being influenced by relationships (family, teacher). Krishna asked Arjuna to abandon all emotions and engage in what his duty demanded. That is the most important message and purpose of BhagawadGita. The same rule can be applied in every thing in life - 'Don't be influenced by anything whatsoever, but continue to perform your duty for its own sake'.

    2.14 : O son of Kuntī, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.
    2.15 : O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is considered eligible for liberation.
    2.38 : Thereafter fight for the sake of fighting, without considering happiness or distress, loss or gain, victory or defeat – and by so doing you shall never incur sin.
    2.41 : The resolute have only one aim, O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched.
    2.47 : Your right extends to performance of your duty, but not to the fruits of your action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your actions, and never be enamored of inaction.
    2.48 : Perform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment to success or failure. That is known as the yoga of equanimity.
     
  15. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Staff Member

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    No surprise there, of course believers and non-believers are going to see things differently and yes, like all religious text, interpretations of the Bhagavad Gita do vary. The fact remains though, regardless of what you think Krishna's message is, it was still up to Arjuna whether or not to heed. In other words, Krishna required of Arjuna his faith and belief in him and his words for that message to prevail.
     
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  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Does he really do this? It is inexcusable to add words to scripture. Do you know the Yogananda Paramahansa translation?
     
  17. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    That disparaging sound you just heard was the simultaneous cringe of all the actual theists in the room at the thought of having NJ's perspectives lumped in with theirs. -:D
     
  18. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Staff Member

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    LOL! Yeah, I do catch it from both sides sometimes, don't I? ;)
    I've not read the Yogananda Paramahansa translation of the Gita myself, but I can tell you that the problem with any BG translation is that Sanskrit is very difficult to translate into English. From what my wife tells me, almost all of the words have more than two meanings and each meaning multiple senses. Then some Sanskrit words have no English equivalent at all.

    It can be translated, but nigh impossible to convey the same sense.

    For my money though, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's version of the Bhagavad Gita is the most complete and best English translation available and one of the few presented as-is without adulteration. The complete edition includes the Devanagari script, a Latin transliteration, word-for-word Sanskrit-English meanings, and English translation as well as an extensive commentary by Prabhupada throughout.

    From the inside cover:

    "His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is uniquely qualified to present this English translation and commentary on Bhagavad-gita. He is the world’s foremost Vedic scholar and teacher, and he is also the current representative of the unbroken chain of fully self-realized spiritual masters beginning with Lord Krishna Himself. Thus, unlike other editions of the Gita, this one is presented as it is—without the slightest taint of adulteration of personal motivation."
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
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  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    It was an advice from a friend and a relative (Brother and Brother in law, related through Kunti and Subhadra). Not a demand of belief in his divinity.
    Yogananda fares even worse in my consideration. :)
     
  20. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    ok ... lol
    Is there an English translation you would recommend? Do you know the Juan Mascaro translation?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020

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