EUHEMRISM- Mythology as Symbolically Glossed History

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Ojh, ooop[s. I am so sorry. Im practically giving them away just to advance the study.. I will edit out all the references... Today. Sorry
I'd like to ask you to review our code of conduct, the section on promoting one's own books etc.
We're happy to have you here, but ask you to respect this place.
A link to our code of conduct, for your convenience:

OKAY, I went through and found and removed references.. Please if you see one I missed please quot and post so I can remove it. thanks so much- I'm getting old and stupid... :eek:) ROSS
Thank you.

Speaking of Jason, what are the historical glosses you see? It is a wonderful story, all the challenges of the quest, the love story between Medea and Jason, sci-fi like elements such as Thalos... What do you make of it? And what was the golden fleece really?
Oh, I am sorry. I might not have been specific. What I meant was the "movie" Jason and Argonauts" by MGM?. The original story, and there were more than just one rendition, is fine. I meant the movie took some license. As to the Golden Fleece, I'll have to dig into the professor's works and see what he said. I don't know what it was, but Ill find out how he interpreted it.
All good, I never watched the movie, but have been hearing good things about it. One of these days...

Regarding the Golden Fleece - I've read a few reports by a person from the Netherlands who seems to be researching ancient Hittite topics, and who claims to have found correspondences between the Fleece and some Hittite ceremonial garb. I can dig up the reference if it interests you.
JASON'S GOLDEN FLEECE: A sacred garment of symbolic super power and divine kingship. It was in the possession of Aeetes, the Noah of genesis 10.
I threw this together from a quick scan of my files:

Notes on Sacred Garments and GOLDEN GIRDLE OF (REV.1:13)

As to Jason’s quest for the Golden Fleece, one might ask what this fleece was and why he would want it so badly.From the following evidence it could be a magical vesture empowering the owner with inevitability and Kingship.

Egyptian symbolism reveals another parallel between Amen-Ra and the Biblical “King of Kings” through the Egyptian Water god, Nu or Nin and the Christ of Revelation 1:13. The Divine Spirit as Amen-Ra, is like the Holy Spirit of the Christian New Testament through the symbolism of “The Stone.” Even so, Amen-Ra as the Celestial Water god Nu, is like Christ, through the symbolism of the Golden Girdle of Revelation 1:13. Both the Bible and the Egyptian Book of the Dead use this sacred garment symbol of the Girdle: “...the Son of Man is girder across His breast with a Golden Girdle.” (Rev. 1:13) The Scribe Anu, in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, mentions this “... girdle of the garments of the God Nu, which giveth light and shineth and belongeth to his breast...” (128)

The Egyptians believed this girdle to be an object of great magical power and an object out of which flowed a guiding light that would lighten the realm of heaven and point out the way of the true path through the domain of darkness. They believed that to identify one's self with this magical belt, was to be identified with that light and thus be safe in such travels through the Nether World.(129) This magical girdle was a very important and sacred motif to the Egyptians, for they claimed it had some mystical power and “light-force” of divine authority, which gave kingship and ruling power to the possessor over all opposition. It was an object in which authority was concentrated; a portal or vehicular object from which all divine despotism flowed.(130) This power of the sacred object over all opposition may have been of great value, even to those of unjust persuasion, for we see just such a figure in the person of the Biblical Nimrod, the Orion of Greek Myth.(131)

The Near Eastern Enuma-Elis records the story of Ea/Enki conjuring up a sleep spell against the god Apsu and his vizier Mummu, where Ea is shown stealing Apsu's sacred garments. The Hindu Puranic myths record this same legend in the person of Indra. With this comparative study, Indra and Apsu seem to be acknowledged as the same entity. Both were, after all, gods of the Water.

Atharva Veda (c. 1000 BCE)Verse 8.8.6. speaks of Indra’s magical net, something highly prized by opponents: “Vast indeed is the tactical net of great Indra, mighty of action and tempestuous of great speed. By that net, O Indra, pounce upon all the enemies so that none of the enemies may escape the arrest and punishment.”

Mummu was present during the attack upon Apsu by the rebellious Enki(Ea), who put both parties under a magical sleep spell and, consequentially, stole Apsu’s sacred garments and relics of political authority. There is a story in the Book of Jasher (See below), where Ham, Canaan and Nimrod alternately obtain Adam’s Sacred garments from Noah, making them, alternately, the New Adamic figures and rulers of the World. This hereditary succession, and sometimes thievery, ended at the destruction of the Tower of Babel. --

In the Enuma-Elis, the God Ea “The Most Able and All Knowing” composes a foul plan against the God Apsu. Drawing up a map of the Universe and composing a magical plot, Ea plans against Apsu and the Waters. The significance of the expression “Waters”(199), in the Biblical context, is it symbolizes the dominant faction of the flood survivors, challenged by the rebel faction under Ea and Enlil or Canaan and Ham. It is apparent that it is talking about the scene at the Tower of Babel. Now, Shem was a loyalist to Noah and received a blessing from Noah, but Japheth only shared this blessing. Ham or Canaan was cursed! Therefore, the family of gods, which included Ea, composing the sleep-spell against Apsu and “the Waters,” must be Hamitic and Canaanite, the Sidonians of Greek Mythology. Ea pours forth his sleep-spell upon a map and transmits a deep sleep to Apsu and Mummu, causing them to slumber. While sleeping, Ea removes their garments and Apsu's Crown. Ea puts the crown on his own head, claiming Apsu's title of ruler over the whole world. His desire of stealing the ultimate Imperial Solar Ruler ship is fulfilled! Ea then supposedly “kills” [dethrones] Apsu and lays the bound-up Mummu cross-ways over Apsu. This is a symbolic killing though, for in the parallel Indian myth Indra is alive and well and lives to rescue Vishnu(?). This symbolic killing is similar to the Greek mythical dethronement of Ouranus or Cronus. Yet, in Indian and Babylonian myth, it is Noah that is dethroned, by Sidon, son of Ham and Canaan.

THE IDENTITY OF AEETES: The seventh member of the Ennead, Osiris’ sister wife Isis is Seba’s full sister and lover Arvad-Parvati, daughter of Noah and Kali. The magician Isis identifies with the arch-magician Medea, Absyrtus’ sister among the Colchians in the Hellenic tradition of the Argonautica. Isis’ magic raises Osiris from the dead just as Medea’s magic wins the Golden Fleece for Jason. Because the Argonautica refers to Medea as Absyrtus’ sister, the genetic relationship between Osiris and Isis is confirmed and Noah-Geb identifies with their father Aeëtes king of Colchis. The family of Aeëtes, Absyrtus and Medea in their Colchian locale is another of those traditions of the second type which should be taken literally in respect to location. [Kingship At Its Source, p. 35]

If King Aeetes of Colchis is the Biblical Noah, the Indra of the Puranics, and the Apsu of the Marduk Epic, as Dr John Pilkey establishes, then Noah must have had a man garbed in and in possession of a sacred lineage of royal vesture consisting of powerfully magical gridles, animal skin cloaks and other items representing power and Kingship. Adding up the stories we can see a good reason for Jason’s quest of the Golden Fleece.

24 And the garments of skin which God made for Adam and his wife, when they went out of the garden, were given to Cush.
25 For after the death of Adam and his wife, the garments were given to Enoch, the son of Jared, and when Enoch was taken up to God, he gave them to Methuselah, his son.
26 And at the death of Methuselah, Noah took them and brought them to the ark, and they were with him until he went out of the ark.
27 And in their going out, Ham stole those garments from Noah his father, and he took them and hid them from his brothers.
28 And when Ham begat his first born Cush, he gave him the garments in secret, and they were with Cush many days.
29 And Cush also concealed them from his sons and brothers, and when Cush had begotten Nimrod, he gave him those garments through his love for him, and Nimrod grew up, and when he was twenty years old he put on those garments.
30 And Nimrod became strong when he put on the garments,… [Jasher 7:24-30]

[Ref. Noah’s Ark and the Genesis 10 Patriarch, pp.89, 137, 151, 254]
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The argue goes two ways:
1.) Believers (Biblicists) say it speaks of real human events and people, therefore, should be looked at as an ancient history - they, at the same time deny this argument to the Gentile world mythologies - the genesis stories of other nations.
2.) The secular world (non-biblicists), as a general rule, will argue that Hebrew Genesis is fictional (mythological) like the other nations myths- but is kept separate out of being equal with mythology but allowing minority exceptions In other words, Biblicists avoid the paganistic polytheism of mythology because it's "devilish" and full of fake gods. The secularists avoid Genesis because its fictional and adds nothing to "real history."
The only exceptions that deal with the Genesis stories of both the Hebrews and Gentiles are Biblical Euhemerists, those who SEE NOAH, his family, Genesis 10, and their histories in non-Biblical genesis accounts.
Quite a hard furrow to plough, I would have thought; all credit to you.

There is another argument –
According to "Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament" (Princeton, 1969), Genesis is more widely and most significantly paralleled in ancient texts of the region than any other book in the Hebrew canon. So I wonder what allowance you make for Genesis incorporating text traditions from Sumerian, Akkadian and other literary traditions?
Quite a hard furrow to plough, I would have thought; all credit to you.

There is another argument –
According to "Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament" (Princeton, 1969), Genesis is more widely and most significantly paralleled in ancient texts of the region than any other book in the Hebrew canon. So I wonder ?

If I read you right; "what allowance you make for Genesis incorporating text traditions from Sumerian, Akkadian and other literary traditions", I would have to say, Any and All texts, as Genesis refers back to all these times, and that all these references derive and speak of the Genesis events.
correspondences between the Fleece and some Hittite ....
I found this:
Professor Volkart Haas. He provide indications almost forty years ago that the Myth of the Golden Fleece was influenced by Hittite myths and their cult attributes. So scholars are referring to his article(s) from that time period. However, in the ensuing forty years the knowledge about Hittite religion has grown and the meaning of the term kursa (often described as a sacral bag made of fleeces) has become more clear. Indeed, Volkert Haas has often put forward in his books that an influence of Hittite myths and attributes, like the
“kursa on the eya tree” is indeed possible in the myth of the Golden Fleece.
Okay, but a fast read tells me he never wanted to say Hittite is the original, but only similarities.
So, my question is whether Telipinu is the same as Jason- who is Nimrod? More digging! No. Telepinu is likely Peleg according to our identities.
Right, the Hittite "Kursa" was what I had in mind. You beat me to it! :)
Is anyone out there on "here" still interested in Comparative Mythology? Let's visit and ask questions. Let's get this thread going! ROSS
Perhaps a working definition of 'mythology' might be a good place to start?
MYTHOLOGY: "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon".
Alternately, you may choose to believe "myth" is "a widely held but false belief or idea." True or false, right, wrong, fiction or reality (historical) depends on the internal harmony of the amount of data you use to interpret mythology. Hince, the debate. The more data commanded, the more potential and probable the historical value. As Time goes forward, more elements will be proven true and/or historical or no. Again, it all depends on one's preference of approach. If a person believes all mythology is fictional mental psychological gymnastics of the imagination, so be it, until proven otherwise. If a person chooses to believe ALL mythology (or most of it) is/has a historical precedence, then so be it, until proven otherwise. It is all in the synthesis of the data as related to what we have established as "proven" history.
"History" only means:
"the study of past events, particularly in human affairs.";
"the whole series of past events connected with someone or something.";
"a continuous, typically chronological record of important or public events or of a particular trend or institution.";
"ate Middle English (also as a verb): via Latin from Greek historia ‘finding out, narrative, history, from histōr ‘learned, wise man’, from an Indo-European root shared by wit.".
"History" does not necessarily mean all past events and people must be "proven." take the ALIEN existence argument for instance. Most believe they exist without one thread of evidence, but "testimony."
The words "record", "study", "past events", "findings", "narrative", all infer the inclusion of "yet to be proved" (or disproved) elements.
"HISTORY" is a "story", and with the pun, History can be someone's belief or accepted ontology, "HIS-story" about the past as from traditional "oral" testimony.
"Historical Study" is all based on synthetic reasoning with a percentage of factual elements to back it up. The percentage of factual elements varies according to the prospects and methods of verification of the individual - this is why some history books are 95 pages verses 3000 pages. Mythology is like modern-day "Reporting". You have different colored news reports, some being "yellow Journalism." Other work hard to avoid normative reporting to favor "descriptive." No matter, History can never be 100% factual in every level of detail. The reporter will ALWAYS add "journalistic glue" to form his/her linear chain of people and happenings.

MYTHOLOGY: We Euhemerist Historicists approach mythology as stories about prehistoric events and people, observed by the contemporaries, and then orally handed down by the ancients' descendants, but with inevitable generational memory loss, imaginative compensational filler, and etc. [Uh?, I think the "fish" was 3 feet long and not 3 inches. Another Curator may reply: "NO!, our g.g.g. grandpaw said it was a "whale!"].
Now, the blatant error of the Modern is taking the minor [the sea creature] and negating the major elements. So, the Psychologist-mythologist tossed the baby out with the Bathwater.
MYTHOLOGY truly houses what the Psych says and sees because the "real" people in the myths lived, acted, and reacted humanly and so instilled such realities in the stories within mythology. The error with them is not the error with approaching mythology as a historian. The historical approach allows not just historical potentials but also the real psychological elements. So the basis of mythology is not just "fictional" imaginative "Old Wives' Tales." I think, maybe because Achilles and other people in the Troy Legends/Myths were pumped up to supernatural levels it may have been hard to believe the story. Now that we know Troy is a reality, persons like Achilles can be dumbed down to human levels.
The Historicist-Mythographer does this "beforehand" with all mythology- strip away the obvious fantastic and get down to what we understand about physical law.
MYTHOLOGY houses a lot of weird stuff- Super High technology for instance. 100+ years ago all this would be stripped away. Today we see such sciences as sonics, levitation, x-ray machines, glowing 'eternal' lamps, you name it. So, even in stripping away what we think is fantastic may one day be proven to be actual.
My personal argument is: "I believe and use the principle that the so-called "gods" are real people, deified Kings and other great persons of the past: ZEUS can be identified with Noah's son, SHEM., and etc. he is the Teutonic THOR. The example list runs as long as Genesis 10.
So are you researching your next book or publishing the last one in this thread?

I am just catching up and wondering if you wanderer in or the nature of your mission.

I have no issues, I just want to understand from which perspective you post.
Hi Ross — I tend to read myth rather 'organically' ...

Lucy Huskinson (PhD, lecturer in philosophy and psychology of religion at the University of Bangor and a visiting fellow at the Centre for Psychoanalytic Studies, University of Essex)
Myth is a conscious interpretation of unconscious communication and as such its nature is both rational and non-rational, archetypal image and ineffable, numinous "content"

Karen Armstrong:
Mythology is an art form that points beyond history to what is timeless in human existence, helping us to get beyond the chaotic flux of random events, and glimpse the core of reality.

The above is not to necessarily deny the actuality of events told in mythological form; rather, a myth conveys something more important than the mere facts.

I like especially:

Miriam Antonieta Carpenter-Cosand
I do not believe that we can objectively discuss any event without a mythological narrative. The present does not have any narrative therefore it is simply a state. But when we starting pulling the strings with our descriptions, ideas, naturally, we start creating narrative and it stops being the present, it becomes more and more words and concepts. All narratives, have a piece of exaggeration because that’s how our perception is created, it is an innate characteristic of our nature.
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I have already published 7 Plus volumes. just trying to promote the "subject" and giving away free PDFS. weirdvideos2008 at yahoo dot com
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I am just catching up and wondering if you wanderer in or the nature of your mission.
I have already published 7 Plus volumes. just trying to promote the "subject" and giving away free PDFS. weridvideos2008 at yahoo dot com
Again... I am just catching up...i didn't read that in your intro or OP, but felt it apparent and worthy of clarity and transparency.
forums like this can be postings. But its a tight line when trying to give away educational materials and papers. just trying to disiminate materials for knowledge and learning. Im not trying to sell or make money. How can we talk about sources and ideas "without" posting the sources?
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