COVID Vax thoughts


It's odd. Majority of folks believe in science vax or not or they wouldn't trust their healthcare providers to treat their illnesses. But we do get third opinions when we are told we may have a tumor (personal experience). I don't know where people would be if they didn't question the experts they know and even more so those they don't.

Just my personal opinion/rant.
 
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2nd 3rd or 3,000th opinion?

The vast majority of epidemiologists will give you similar opinions after studying this crap for their entire lives...get the vax!

I have been on the alternative front for decades and pretty much anti big pharma and allopathic medicine. I know my experience is anecdotal but after an aortic dissection, 2 open heart surgeries, the first where they left me open after hours of surgery ...so the surgeons could sleep while others figured out what to do next...me chest open and being kept alive by half a dozen staff running 110 units of blood thru me as I lay in a coma. A year later I surprised everyone being alive so they went back in and completed the job (maybe)

Maybe I am wrong again, but I dont think any herbs or crystals or even Joe Rogan could have saved me.

I had my road to Damascus moment, not for G!d but for the value of PhDs, MDs, and decades of actual research and healthcare improvements.

5-10 years ago...or even today had I not had my recent educational experience... I might very well have been on your side...but today I got the vax and wish everyone would!

Now whether I was worth saving or spending half a million dollars on is another discussion.
 
2nd 3rd or 3,000th opinion?

The vast majority of epidemiologists will give you similar opinions after studying this crap for their entire lives...get the vax!

I have been on the alternative front for decades and pretty much anti big pharma and allopathic medicine. I know my experience is anecdotal but after an aortic dissection, 2 open heart surgeries, the first where they left me open after hours of surgery ...so the surgeons could sleep while others figured out what to do next...me chest open and being kept alive by half a dozen staff running 110 units of blood thru me as I lay in a coma. A year later I surprised everyone being alive so they went back in and completed the job (maybe)

Maybe I am wrong again, but I dont think any herbs or crystals or even Joe Rogan could have saved me.

I had my road to Damascus moment, not for G!d but for the value of PhDs, MDs, and decades of actual research and healthcare improvements.

5-10 years ago...or even today had I not had my recent educational experience... I might very well have been on your side...but today I got the vax and wish everyone would!

Now whether I was worth saving or spending half a million dollars on is another discussion.

I hope those who need the vax get it too. I'm not against those healthy with low threshold of catching COVID vaxxing. I've never took non-mandatory vaccines.

Any. Doctor will/should tell you it depends on the patients not just the doctor.

My issue is, as in my OP, there's a lot of negativity.

I can't imagine what you've gone through. My big thing was brain surgery and life and death seizures without meds. But I haven't been on this site long to have 3,000 opinions. :confused:

In general, I think media and government have a lot to do with our attitudes. I was watching YouTube earlier and watching various covid advertisements. Australia went so far as using people die on ventilators very dramatized to get people to vaccinate. I'm currently writing about fear and COVID vaccination as an article for hubpages...though censorship is a huge issue too. But it's objective.

Anyhow. I just like to question anything that has to do with my health. I hope everyone is like that.

No harsh feelings here.
 
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. I've never took non-mandatory vaccines
Me neither.... TILL NOW!

Now they have jabbed me with shingles, flu, pneumonia, and covid(3x)!
But I haven't been on this site long to have 3,000 opinions. :confused:
Lol, forgive 7x70....not a real number...it just means forever...not 3,000 epidemiologists who have made it their life's work to help save us from crap....but the vast majority of them would like to see us ALL keep
those healthy with low threshold of catching COVID
from being hospitalized or dying.

I did not get the shots for me....i got it for thee
 
Me neither.... TILL NOW!

Now they have jabbed me with shingles, flu, pneumonia, and covid(3x)!

Lol, forgive 7x70....not a real number...it just means forever...not 3,000 epidemiologists who have made it their life's work to help save us from crap....but the vast majority of them would like to see us ALL keep
from being hospitalized or dying.

I did not get the shots for me....i got it for thee

I don't think I ever will take any voluntary vaccine. Why not get it for both?

For me, I don't see myself being contagious in the last three years because they told me...but my OP, though, where did these mindsets come from?

For example, "I take it for you not me" comes from media and government. It started with masks: I wear it to protect you not me.

"It's all based on science" is another and used as an excuse that all unvax read "misinformation" and not following the science is another logical fallacy (all or nothing).

Antivax, covidiot, etc are media driven.

Repetition/illusion truth effect

That and just ones disdain of people who choose to unvax (bandwagon).

And fear...so many examples.

Among others.

Objectively, though, I know media and gov are involved but for some reason I think there's something more.

I took mass media communications awhile back and got a feel of the media influences with use of advertisements and overall news influencing people's opinions and feelings. COVID made the top of the list.

Is there a way we can analyze these influences without making it personal (that's what I'm getting from your second to last post)?
 
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Media does have an influence for sure.

Thinking out loud:
There's a pandemic. It reaches Europe, there are hundreds, thousands dying, everyone starts locking down.

It's then you get the fake news/conspiracy theory response. There is no pandemic. There is, started in a secret lab in China, etc.

Basically, it seems to me, at each step, the majority 'follow the science' in what seems to be sensible measures to control a pandemic. From the get-go, it was about stopping health services being overwhelmed.

Then we have Trump and denial. And right-wing deniers. Fake cures. Warped stats to suggest that all these people would have died anyway ...

Then we have a vaccine

Then we have the same vocal elements saying why we shouldn't take the vaccine. It's not safe. There are side effects. Govts are silencing people, hiding the figures, etc.

Thus there is a trend, a pattern, where genuine doubts are drowned out by all the shouting. So the argument tends to polarise with the worst kind of anti-vax nonsense being assumed of everyone who's hesitant, and those who are genuine get lumped in with the rest who appear to be against everything.

And neither side is giving credence to the other's voice.

Take mask-wearing.

It all seemed reasonable, rational and sensible, until some started saying masks offer no protection (they do), or they're an affront to civil liberties (they aren't). And the next thing, you have anti-maskers swearing at and assaulting shop staff asking them to wear a mask or go elsewhere.

It's polite. It's good manners. It's to protect others, not you. Would you sneeze in someone's face?

It ain't a cure, but it helps, and it's better than nothing.

But again and again, the rabid element sets the temperature and tenor of the debate.
 
Thinking out loud:
There's a pandemic. It reaches Europe, there are hundreds, thousands dying, everyone starts locking down.

It's then you get the fake news/conspiracy theory response. There is no pandemic. There is, started in a secret lab in China, etc.

Basically, it seems to me, at each step, the majority 'follow the science' in what seems to be sensible measures to control a pandemic. From the get-go, it was about stopping health services being overwhelmed.

Then we have Trump and denial. And right-wing deniers. Fake cures. Warped stats to suggest that all these people would have died anyway ...

Then we have a vaccine

Then we have the same vocal elements saying why we shouldn't take the vaccine. It's not safe. There are side effects. Govts are silencing people, hiding the figures, etc.

Thus there is a trend, a pattern, where genuine doubts are drowned out by all the shouting. So the argument tends to polarise with the worst kind of anti-vax nonsense being assumed of everyone who's hesitant, and those who are genuine get lumped in with the rest who appear to be against everything.

And neither side is giving credence to the other's voice.

Take mask-wearing.

It all seemed reasonable, rational and sensible, until some started saying masks offer no protection (they do), or they're an affront to civil liberties (they aren't). And the next thing, you have anti-maskers swearing at and assaulting shop staff asking them to wear a mask or go elsewhere.

It's polite. It's good manners. It's to protect others, not you. Would you sneeze in someone's face?

It ain't a cure, but it helps, and it's better than nothing.

But again and again, the rabid element sets the temperature and tenor of the debate.

Is it sensible to find facts and truth on the other side that doesn't need to be about trump and conspiracy theories? (Seeing things one sided-either party-in itself is highly propagated and people just go along.)

I get the messages on both sides but only "lefts" can express themselves (if to use that political reference).
 
It is ... but can they be found? ;)

I believe so but will they be accepted as facts despite what side we're on?

I mean just because we feel strongly about one side doesn't and shouldn't discredit the other....regardless the intent behind both messages.
 
I believe so but will they be accepted as facts despite what side we're on?
It's a trick one ... I've tried to keep track of the pros and cons, but really where does one get sensible 'reservation' data?

@RJM cited Dr John Campbell as a source, and he's claimed by many as a source of common sense. He posts 30min videos once or twice a day! I haven't the time to follow them all.

He's pro mask, so that's good ... and I think, generally, he's pro vaccine.

(Unfortunately, one video I watched, about aspirating injections, his opinion goes against peer-reviewed best practice. He's applying something he learned about A to B, where it's not applicable/relative) so he's slightly wrong. It struck me as a 'that's the way we did it when I was young', it's not uncommon in older white men to assume that's a valid reason. Not reason enough to dismiss everything, though.)

Where he's in trouble is statistics.

Campbell's video on the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS) highlighting only 17,371 death certificates where only COVID-19 was recorded as a cause of death, therefore COVID has only killed 17,000 people, is an example. Conservative politician David Davis who called it "excellent" and said that it was "disentangling the statistics".

The ONS however, declared his claims as spurious and wrong. An ONS spokesman said "to suggest that [the 17,000] figure represents the real extent of deaths from the virus is both factually incorrect and highly misleading". The official figure for COVID-19-related deaths in the UK for the period was over 175,000.

Also, I've noticed a 'you'll have to decide' that suggests by implication in the absence of data. That's enough for his supporters to take his words as hard evidence.
 
Where he's in trouble is statistics.

Campbell's video on the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS) highlighting only 17,371 death certificates where only COVID-19 was recorded as a cause of death, therefore COVID has only killed 17,000 people, is an example. Conservative politician David Davis who called it "excellent" and said that it was "disentangling the statistics".

The ONS however, declared his claims as spurious and wrong. An ONS spokesman said "to suggest that [the 17,000] figure represents the real extent of deaths from the virus is both factually incorrect and highly misleading". The official figure for COVID-19-related deaths in the UK for the period was over 175,000.

Also, I've noticed a 'you'll have to decide' that suggests by implication in the absence of data. That's enough for his supporters to take his words as hard evidence.
We are all in trouble when it comes to statistics.
It's not so much the data, as the conclusions that we might draw from it.

A good example, would be that we all have to die of something,
and naturally, covid [or other viruses in circulation] are likely to be one reason.

Excess deaths [as a general trend] might give a better comparison, but even then, it is complicated by the side effects of lockdowns and what have you.
 
The official figure for COVID-19-related deaths in the UK for the period was over 175,000.
People mostly beyond life expectancy with several co-morbidities who died of any cause after testing +ve for covid within the last 28 days. Even now on the daily covid death statistics, they are adding the phrase: 'Tho covid may not have been the cause of death.'

Of those 17 000 died directly of covid. Campbell does not deny covid as a contributing factor in the other deaths: he observes that the 175 000 figure is not entirely representative, and could be revised downward by quite a lot.
... about aspirating injections, his opinion goes against peer-reviewed best practice.
Possible to expand, with links? Campbell stands by his statements. Aspiration can do no harm. It takes a little longer and requires a level of expertise.

His latest video has a mother asking a vaccinator to aspirate before injecting her son, and being rudely told: it's dangerous: it can get air in the syringe. Which is an untruth and medical incompetence so great, that person should not be allowed to hold a syringe

A great many doctors support him.

Why Aspirate a Needle?
Aspiration means to draw breath, or air from a needle. This simple process can make a big impact though. It protects you from hitting a blood vessel or artery and accidentally injecting fluid into one, which can result in a variety of different side effects.

Naseau, coughing spells, dizzyness, increased heart rate, and in some cases, coma or death can occur as a result of not aspirating a needle properly.

Aspirating a needle is a quick and easy process that should be performed prior to injecting. You should never skip it. Doing so puts your health at risk. While it is difficult to hit an artery or blood vessel with a needle, it is still a potential hazard that should not be taken lightly.

How to aspirate a needle properly.
 
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It's a trick one ... I've tried to keep track of the pros and cons, but really where does one get sensible 'reservation' data?

@RJM cited Dr John Campbell as a source, and he's claimed by many as a source of common sense. He posts 30min videos once or twice a day! I haven't the time to follow them all.

He's pro mask, so that's good ... and I think, generally, he's pro vaccine.

(Unfortunately, one video I watched, about aspirating injections, his opinion goes against peer-reviewed best practice. He's applying something he learned about A to B, where it's not applicable/relative) so he's slightly wrong. It struck me as a 'that's the way we did it when I was young', it's not uncommon in older white men to assume that's a valid reason. Not reason enough to dismiss everything, though.)

Where he's in trouble is statistics.

Campbell's video on the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS) highlighting only 17,371 death certificates where only COVID-19 was recorded as a cause of death, therefore COVID has only killed 17,000 people, is an example. Conservative politician David Davis who called it "excellent" and said that it was "disentangling the statistics".

The ONS however, declared his claims as spurious and wrong. An ONS spokesman said "to suggest that [the 17,000] figure represents the real extent of deaths from the virus is both factually incorrect and highly misleading". The official figure for COVID-19-related deaths in the UK for the period was over 175,000.

Also, I've noticed a 'you'll have to decide' that suggests by implication in the absence of data. That's enough for his supporters to take his words as hard evidence.

I don't know. I mean many medical decisions we tend to use a lot of our gut as well as the science (i.e. I know my doctor I've seen for years is doing his job, but 'something' doesn't feel right... let me ask...) but for some reason many don't have that same gut feeling with doctors they don't know-just the science. Anywho. I'm told I'm an anti-vax (which is weird if one is looking at science and feels they aren't drawn to propaganda and media), so I usually just write my opinions. I do want to look more into it on both sides. Like-those who have breakthroughs is there relevant data about the breakthroughs without a. media and government downplaying it and b. from actual objective (and peer reviewed) sources that look at the possible danger of the vaccine (as with other vaccines and meds have been studied throughout the years).

...Looking at how masks may not be as efficiency because of X, Y, and Z proven reasons (mind you, I'm not saying they don't work just I wish we can look into it more). Even look into the "conspiracy theories" without disregarding them as such. Do they have a point? ... or are we just listening to media and government saying they do not and we just fall for it?

--stuff in my head. I've heard pro-vaxxers want to kick unvaccinated COVID patients from the hospitals. Biden said so himself. Sounds like a contradiction to saving the world of COVID-especially since they say most people with COVID are unvaccinated.

Anyway ... I haven't looked into the scientific jargon to talk more about it. I just keep up with what I need to and do other things.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333604/
From this paper:
  • Recommended sites for immunizations do not have major blood vessels; hence the risk of accidentally injecting the vaccine into a blood vessel is thought to be minimal
  • AD syringes have been used in mass campaigns for IM injections without any reported adverse effects or injury from failure to aspirate. All complications reported in the literature of intra-arterial injection involved penicillin and other medications and not vaccines. “It is safe to assume that immunization as a class of IM injection poses less risk to the patient” than other medications, particularly antibiotics. Hence, according to Clements, “the practice of aspiration during vaccinations is not evidence-based”.
That's it for me ... Campbell is an opinion piece, not evidence-based.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333604/
From this paper:
  • Recommended sites for immunizations do not have major blood vessels; hence the risk of accidentally injecting the vaccine into a blood vessel is thought to be minimal
  • AD syringes have been used in mass campaigns for IM injections without any reported adverse effects or injury from failure to aspirate. All complications reported in the literature of intra-arterial injection involved penicillin and other medications and not vaccines. “It is safe to assume that immunization as a class of IM injection poses less risk to the patient” than other medications, particularly antibiotics. Hence, according to Clements, “the practice of aspiration during vaccinations is not evidence-based”.
That's it for me ... Campbell is an opinion piece, not evidence-based.

I understand it's a small risk but that hasn't stopped scientists throughout the years to study these things. Maybe we would more when the pandemic subsides and there's no need to push vaccination.

Since there are breakthroughs wouldn't it make sense for the general public to think why?

If it's that minimal then why would they pause J&J and instead say *oh, this science based article says it's minimal let's ignore it.*

(I just woke up practically. I'll have to read the article later)... But I understand it's minimal but that doesn't mean there aren't still breakthroughs to look into (if one is interested and find science on it without downplay)

.gov sites are good sources. I usually go to those and academic sites. I would like to find opinionated sites to for interest. They are censored. I think it's the way authors phrase their content and sources they may use. I think if they're antivax (let's say) or just writing their opinions they would use scientific sources. It's possible though I was told they are most likely fudging the information.
 
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People are dying to take advice from devils advocates.

It is a shame. I have come to the conclusion that everyone has differing levels of concern regarding safety for themselves and others. I hate to say it ...but I have given up on them. I wont waste my breath on them any more. It is time for covid only hospitals...
 
I've heard pro-vaxxers want to kick unvaccinated COVID patients from the hospitals.
I know. And anti-vaxxers hanging nooses from lamp-posts in Melbourne.

Fundies on both side should shut up, but the fact is that on this or any issue, fundies on both sides should not be allowed to set the tenor of the debate.

Distilled from The Guardian, published a couple of days ago:

Hospitalisation and death from Covid-19 in the US are now driven heavily (not exclusively) by the unvaccinated.

Yet vaccine hesitancy remains ... why?

Vaccines were portrayed as 90%+ effective against Covid. It turns out that even two doses declines in efficacy, to less than 50%.

Even the three-shot "boosted" experience 'breakthrough infection' (as per my household). In fact a daughter and her husband as well as my beloved have all been boosted and yet ... so, over time, the justification for getting vaccinated has shifted. Rather than preventing infection altogether, it's now argued as a socially responsible decision to to reduce hospitalisation and risk of death (the vaccines remain very effective at this).

In short, the main benefit of vaccination has been revised down dramatically – from preventing infection to reducing severity of infection.

Time between shots started at 12 weeks and was cut to 3 or 4. Evidence suggests 8 to 12 weeks between doses provides much better antibody response, reducing the prospect of breakthrough infections while simultaneously extending the window of high infection resistance.

That is, a less aggressive policy would have been wiser – but the policy shows no sign of changing.

Successive boosters generates billions for vaccine manufacturers. Big Pharma have an interest in multiple rounds being mandated/encouraged, in as many places as possible (at as high a price as possible).

They have a clear interest in funding and promoting research suggesting that more rounds of vaccination are needed – and they have been doing just that, while lobbying governments to adopt their vaccines over those of their competitors.

According to the VAERS (vaccine adverse event reporting system) database, nearly 12,000 Americans have died shortly after receiving Covid vaccines, possibly as a result of side-effects or allergic reactions from the vaccines. On the one hand, these casualties represent a minuscule share (0.0022%) of all doses given out, and are radically offset by the immense number of lives saved by vaccination.

But at the same time, 12,000 lives are not nothing – certainly no reason to dismiss fears over/ignore completely vaccine-related death.

In the US, pharma won exemptions from the govt shielding them from being sued should their vaccines produce adverse reactions.

Over the course of the pandemic, those in power, their friends and party donors have reaped significant financial windfalls from covid-related business deals. In the UK this was rampant.

The above can reasonably contribute to vaccine hesitancy.

Expert modelling and predictions seemed, in retrospect, to have exaggerated rates of infection, the numbers of deaths, etc, over a given period. There are good reasons for the models to be skewed in this direction. Nonetheless, policies have been costly for many – especially in education and the leisure industries. Plus the knock-on from financial losses, business collapses, social isolation, mental health strain etc. These costs have all been borne most heavily by those who were already relatively disadvantaged and vulnerable – populations already inclined to be skeptical of authorities.

For example, ethnic minorities living in poor housing, or multiple occupancy, or the tendency towards multi-generational occupancy, suffered heavily, as did those with non life-threatening conditions wheich were exacerbated by covid – eg. diabetes, asthma.

Nonetheless, those who express concern about the profound costs of Covid-19 mitigation policies are often derided as myopic and selfish.
With respect to questions of possible adverse side effects, the origins of the virus, pandemic modelling, vaccine efficacy, masking, lockdown, travel restrictions – both experts and policymakers have been relying on data that was extremely provisional, and the latter abandoning data when it suited. In the UK we hear 'follow the science' as if science was in universal agreement, which it ain't.

So we got a lot right, and we got a lot wrong. This is not unusual – it is how science works. The problem, however, is that spokespeople (and "Trust the Science" brigade) regularly concealed uncertainties, suppressed inconvenient information and squashed internal dissent in an ill-conceived effort to seem maximally authoritative.

At times there were blatant political double standards with respect to public health guidance.

Any of these factors could easily and quite reasonably generate skepticism about authorities and their advice, including as it relates to the Covid vaccine.
 
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