Quran says that Jesus Christ died a natural death.

RJM

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is not Jesus who created any deception, but those who mistakenly create something unintended, imo.
It's back to: the Gospels are wrong where they contradict one single line from the Quran: 4:157–158

And so a whole history must be built around trying to shape the foot to fit the shoe, imo
 
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yitzak tover

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Quran 5:118
"
I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die( tawaffaitani,)Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things. Therefore, Allah has stated that Hazrat Isa(as) has died because in these two places there is no mention of night, which would change the definition to sleep. About both of these verses, we find primary Islamic sources attesting to the fact that the verb tawaffa refers to death."
Why do you need to delete my phrase? This is a scholarly discussion and I am giving my thoughts with proofs and evidence for the audience to verify and validate the point. There could be thousands different viewpoints in Wikipedia…lets just put aside and focus on the scripture only as that is the source of believe…so once again please ask your question and answer my above questions… I believe this is great education platform.
 

RJM

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@yitzak tover
Is there a reason you have attached the above posts without replying to them?
 

RJM

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At risk of labouring the point -- even excluding the resurrection – the whole drive of all the canonical Gospels is towards the death of Jesus on the cross. That the Quran says this did not happen, is a fact. But to try to show that the Gospels say it did not happen is like trying to move water with a sieve. It's a self-defeating exercise to try to prove that the Gospels mean the exact opposite of what they say ... imo
 
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muhammad_isa

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At risk of labouring the point -- even excluding the resurrection – the whole drive of all the canonical Gospels is towards the death of Jesus on the cross. That the Quran says this did not happen, is a fact. But to try to show that the Gospels say it did not happen is like trying to move water with a sieve. It's a self-defeating exercise to try to prove that the Gospels mean the exact opposite of what they say ... imo
There is an obvious answer to that.
"it appeared as if Jesus died on the cross" .. exactly how this happened is not known for sure.
As I've said so many times now, it is not acceptable for you, as doctrine revolves around it.

I see it as quite sad .. but G-d knows best. None of us should "take our eye off the ball", imo.
Whether Jesus is G-d or he died or didn't die, G-d is our Creator and Sustainer :)
 

RJM

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There is an obvious answer to that.
"it appeared as if Jesus died on the cross" .. exactly how this happened is not known for sure.
As I've said so many times now, it is not acceptable for you, as doctrine revolves around it.

I see it as quite sad .. but G-d knows best. None of us should "take our eye off the ball", imo.
Whether Jesus is G-d or he died or didn't die, G-d is our Creator and Sustainer :)
Which assumes that the Quran version is the correct one? Because clearly the Gospels do not support the Quran on the point? Trying to make the Gospels support the Quran on the point of Jesus's death on the cross is a wasted exercise? The two texts 100% contradict?

The Gospel accounts cannot be fixed or manipulated to support the Quran on the subject, imo
 

RJM

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It's understood this is the Islamic forum, but where the Bible is used to try to support the Quaran version of the crucifixion and death of Jesus, the other side of the debate is entitled to a voice?
 

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As I've said so many times now, it is not acceptable for you, as doctrine revolves around it.
I see it as quite sad .
Nevertheless the majority of objective scholars and historians do not agree
 

RJM

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If you are happy that the Qur'an is bunkum, then that's your opinion. :)
No. I believe the Quran is wrong on the point of Jesus's death on the cross. I'm happy for the Quran to be what it is, and for the Gospels to be what they are. I'm happy for people to follow their own faith.

I quite understand that Muslims believe the Quran is inerrant. However that does not mean that because as a non-Muslim I believe Jesus died on the cross, that I think the Quran is bunkum.
 
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Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

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I again repeat the verse which says Jesus died. If you have any other translations, please post them here.
Quran 5:118
مَا قُلۡتُ لَہُمۡ اِلَّا مَاۤ اَمَرۡتَنِیۡ بِہٖۤ اَنِ اعۡبُدُوا اللّٰہَ رَبِّیۡ وَرَبَّکُمۡ ۚ وَکُنۡتُ عَلَیۡہِمۡ شَہِیۡدًا مَّا دُمۡتُ فِیۡہِمۡ ۚ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّیۡتَنِیۡ کُنۡتَ اَنۡتَ الرَّقِیۡبَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ؕ وَاَنۡتَ عَلٰی کُلِّ شَیۡءٍ شَہِیۡدٌ ﴿۱۱۸﴾

Short Commentary
“I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me—‘Worship Allah, my Lord[813] and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them,[814] but since [a]Thou didst cause me to die,[815] Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;
Then I will post the next verse of the Holy Quran.
 

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Then I will post the next verse of the Holy Quran.
Is this it 5:119?
https://www.alislam.org/quran/app/5:111
What is your interpretation of the meaning, in relation to Jesus's death?


upload_2022-3-4_8-17-8.png


Sorry I have read the Quran English translation, but do not consider myself to be at all knowledgeable about it
 

muhammad_isa

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I again repeat the verse which says Jesus died. If you have any other translations, please post them here.
Quran 5:118
مَا قُلۡتُ لَہُمۡ اِلَّا مَاۤ اَمَرۡتَنِیۡ بِہٖۤ اَنِ اعۡبُدُوا اللّٰہَ رَبِّیۡ وَرَبَّکُمۡ ۚ وَکُنۡتُ عَلَیۡہِمۡ شَہِیۡدًا مَّا دُمۡتُ فِیۡہِمۡ ۚ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّیۡتَنِیۡ کُنۡتَ اَنۡتَ الرَّقِیۡبَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ؕ وَاَنۡتَ عَلٰی کُلِّ شَیۡءٍ شَہِیۡدٌ ﴿۱۱۸﴾

Short Commentary
“I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me—‘Worship Allah, my Lord[813] and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them,[814] but since [a]Thou didst cause me to die,[815] Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;
Then I will post the next verse of the Holy Quran.
I think you mean ayat #117

I get the following from translation by Marmaduke Pickthall..

117 I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying) : Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.
 

RJM

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They are In relation to Quranic text.and islamic belief.
But also quoting the Bible; and drawing conclusions from Bible texts?
There are more than 30 evidences from Bible itself to prove that Jesus did not die on the cross, but he survived the accursed death which Jews tried to accomplish, but God is powerful than anyone/anything…God protected his prophet as per his promise to Jesus which Jesus himself prophesied by mentioning ‘Sign of Jonah”.

About the thought…that another person was crucified in Jesus’s place…please show me the proof from either Holy Bible or Holy Quran… If not then please ask me question…what is the truth then? I will love to explain in detail with biblical references and Quanic references.
However I apologise if I have caused offence to anyone by responding improperly or argumentatively in the Islam forum
 
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wil

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a figment of your imagination
Thanx for the response, I see your perspective and understand the consternation.

The thought (thread title) is absolutely contrary to your beliefs and would be inappropriate for the Christian section.
But also quoting the Bible; and drawing conclusions from Bible texts?
Yes, from an Islamic perspective.

Just as we interpret jewish texts.from a Christian perspective, but not in the Jewish forum eh?

It is a tricky line imo, but one that allows others their perspectives.
 
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RJM

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Just as we interpret jewish texts.from a Christian perspective, but not in the Jewish forum eh?

It is a tricky line imo, but one that allows others their perspectives.
When Jewish texts are quoted in other Abrahamic forums, there are people who are not slow to post correction of perceived misinterpretation, lol

If I quote and interpret 'your' scripture in 'my' forum, you are entitled to question my interpretation -- especially where my knowledge of your scripture is likely thin and acquired second or third hand?
 
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RJM

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The thought (thread title) is absolutely contrary to your beliefs and would be inappropriate for the Christian section.
It is also absolutely contrary to mainstream Muslim beliefs.
About the thought…that another person was crucified in Jesus’s place…please show me the proof from either Holy Bible or Holy Quran… If not then please ask me question…what is the truth then? I will love to explain in detail with biblical references and Quanic references.
The poster invited questions?
 

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When Jewish texts are quoted in other Abrahamic forums, there are people who are not slow to post correction of perceived misinterpretation, lol

If I quote and interpret 'your' scripture in 'my' forum, you are entitled to question my interpretation -- especially where my knowledge of your scripture is likely thin and acquired second or third hand?

I think it is one of the really cool aspects of interfaith dialogue, to talk about the different ways of reading and understanding the old texts.

It is our strength as interfaith activists (that's how I see us, if the word is not to your tastes, please disregard it), to be able to contain and work with the tension of dissenting opinions and beliefs. Go us!
 
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No. I believe the Quran is wrong on the point of Jesus's death on the cross. I'm happy for the Quran to be what it is, and for the Gospels to be what they are. I'm happy for people to follow their own faith.

I quite understand that Muslims believe the Quran is inerrant. However that does not mean that because as a non-Muslim I believe Jesus died on the cross, that I think the Quran is bunkum.

@RJM, While reading both scriptures, I observed, Quran rejects an “accursed death” of a person who is Holy, Pious and close to God Almighty (I am talking about Jesus pbuh)…but you are proving from Bible that Jesus had an accursed death…which is your interpretation, Bible also supports that he did not have accursed death…read!
Hebrew 5:7
“During the days of Jesus’s life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to
the one (GOD) who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”


He was HEARD..means what? His prayers were accepted by God almighty…and was saved from accursed death…
So if death did not happened…then resurrection and accession are meaningless talks…this was the conjecture Quran referred in Quran 4:157–158, and brother Isa still not responding me on my question if that verse say Allah took Jesus up bodily (alive or earthly body)?
 
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