Quran says that Jesus Christ died a natural death.

muhammad_isa said:
It is not "illogical" for a physical law to be violated .. it is an exception that is caused by the will of G-d.

It is entirely different from making illogical statements such as Jesus is a man, but Jesus is also G-d .. and G-d created man.
Can you not see the difference?
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It is true that they are deductively invalid for different reasons. The Trinity violates the Law of Identity. Miracles, as you define them, violate the Law of Noncontradiction.

For instance, there can never be a married bachelor. Once a bachelor becomes married, they are no longer a bachelor. For the same reason, we can never have a physical law that is violated because, once it is violated, it is no longer a physical law.
 
muhammad_isa said:
It is not "illogical" for a physical law to be violated .. it is an exception that is caused by the will of G-d.

It is entirely different from making illogical statements such as Jesus is a man, but Jesus is also G-d .. and G-d created man.
Can you not see the difference?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm getting bogged down in technical descriptions here. Perhaps you mean that the natural universe is not a closed system and that it can be affected from the outside supernatural force of God. That wouldn't be illogical.
 
I posted two verses of the Quran, with Arabic text and translations. If somebody disagrees with my view, please post his translation or any other verse of the Quran, which says that Jesus(as) is raised( with the physical body) to heaven, he is still alive(physically) and he will come back(physically) to this world. I want to spread the truth and listen to the truth. thanks
 
Please note that I and my family believe that all those Hadees (traditions of the prophet of Islam(as) are true, which agrees with the Quran. The Quran is the word of Allah Tala. Hadees were composed nearly 100 years after the death of the prophet of Islam(as). So, I am proving my above topic with the verses of the Quran.
 
Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi said:
Quran 5:118
"I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die( tawaffaitani,)Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things." Therefore, Allah has stated that Hazrat Isa(as) has died because in these two places there is no mention of night, which would change the definition to sleep. About both of these verses, we find primary Islamic sources attesting to the fact that the verb tawaffa refers to death.
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Sorry, the words colored by me in blue above are not in the text of Quran, but the argument by the poster, I understand. Right?
I will therefore give the text in original Arabic and its translation in English by Sher Ali:
5:118

مَا قُلۡتُ لَہُمۡ اِلَّا مَاۤ اَمَرۡتَنِیۡ بِہٖۤ اَنِ اعۡبُدُوا اللّٰہَ رَبِّیۡ وَرَبَّکُمۡ ۚ وَکُنۡتُ عَلَیۡہِمۡ شَہِیۡدًا مَّا دُمۡتُ فِیۡہِمۡ ۚ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّیۡتَنِیۡ کُنۡتَ اَنۡتَ الرَّقِیۡبَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ؕ وَاَنۡتَ عَلٰی کُلِّ شَیۡءٍ شَہِیۡدٌ ﴿۱۱۸﴾

English - Sher Ali
“I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things."
https://www.alislam.org/quran/app/5:118
Perhaps the poster put the closing quotation mark by mistake at the wrong place which I have corrected, please. Right, please?

Regards
 
Some of my Muslim friends believe that Jesus went to the heavens, physically.
When Isa(as) nabi Allah, will come again in this world, then who will be the last prophet? Logically, who dies last is the last person. Islam is a logical religion. Then what are the true meanings of Khatam Nabiyeen?
 
Some verses of the Holy Quran say that Isa(as) has died.
(3-145)
وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ اِلَّا رَسُوۡلٌ ۚ قَدۡ خَلَتۡ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِ الرُّسُلُ ؕ اَفَا۠ئِنۡ مَّاتَ اَوۡ قُتِلَ انۡقَلَبۡتُمۡ عَلٰۤی اَعۡقَابِکُمۡ ؕ وَمَنۡ یَّنۡقَلِبۡ عَلٰی عَقِبَیۡہِ فَلَنۡ یَّضُرَّ اللّٰہَ شَیۡئًا ؕ وَسَیَجۡزِی اللّٰہُ الشّٰکِرِیۡنَ ﴿۱۴۵
And [a]Muhammad is but a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all.[494] And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.
(5-117)
وَاِذۡ قَالَ اللّٰہُ یٰعِیۡسَی ابۡنَ مَرۡیَمَ ءَاَنۡتَ قُلۡتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُوۡنِیۡ وَاُمِّیَ اِلٰہَیۡنِ مِنۡ دُوۡنِ اللّٰہِ ؕ قَالَ سُبۡحٰنَکَ مَا یَکُوۡنُ لِیۡۤ اَنۡ اَقُوۡلَ مَا لَیۡسَ لِیۡ ٭ بِحَقٍّ ؕ؃ اِنۡ کُنۡتُ قُلۡتُہٗ فَقَدۡ عَلِمۡتَہٗ ؕ تَعۡلَمُ مَا فِیۡ نَفۡسِیۡ وَلَاۤ اَعۡلَمُ مَا فِیۡ نَفۡسِکَ ؕ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ عَلَّامُ الۡغُیُوۡبِ ﴿۱
And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods[811] beside Allah?’”, He will answer, “Holy art Thou, I could never say[812] that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. [a]It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things;
(5-118)
مَا قُلۡتُ لَہُمۡ اِلَّا مَاۤ اَمَرۡتَنِیۡ بِہٖۤ اَنِ اعۡبُدُوا اللّٰہَ رَبِّیۡ وَرَبَّکُمۡ ۚ وَکُنۡتُ عَلَیۡہِمۡ شَہِیۡدًا مَّا دُمۡتُ فِیۡہِمۡ ۚ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّیۡتَنِیۡ کُنۡتَ اَنۡتَ الرَّقِیۡبَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ؕ وَاَنۡتَ عَلٰی کُلِّ شَیۡءٍ شَہِیۡدٌ ﴿۱۱۸
“I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me—‘Worship Allah, my Lord[813] and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them,[814] but since [a]Thou didst cause me to die,[815] Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;
 
Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi said:
Some of my Muslim friends believe that Jesus went to the heavens, physically.
When Isa(as) nabi Allah, will come again in this world, then who will be the last prophet? Logically, who dies last is the last person. Islam is a logical religion. Then what are the true meanings of Khatam Nabiyeen?
Click to expand...
The term refers to "the last new Prophet" with new revelation.
 
Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi said:
Quran 5:118
"
I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die( tawaffaitani,)Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things. Therefore, Allah has stated that Hazrat Isa(as) has died because in these two places there is no mention of night, which would change the definition to sleep. About both of these verses, we find primary Islamic sources attesting to the fact that the verb tawaffa refers to death."
Click to expand...

The Qur'an does not say Jesus died a natural death, but you could derive that understanding from it. And of course you could argue that every human being does and will die on natural grounds so Jesus was no exception.

Ahmad. In what language does Thawaffa mean "death"? Unless it is in a sentence that says "we ENDED his life"? End does not mean death. It only means "end". But if you use it in a sentence saying "that's the end of his life", THEN it could mean death.

Thawaffa cannot ever mean death linguistically. You are making an interpretation based on a sentence, not the linguistic meaning of the word. Do you understand?
 
RJM said:
Interesting, as previous discussions on the subject from the Islamic perspective have been around the fact that Jesus did not die, and was not resurrected, but was raised alive to heaven, where he awaits his return in the last days -- after which he will die and be buried alongside Muhammad (pbuh) in the grave that is already prepared for him in Mecca?
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Some people believe that. But the OP is not referring to what people believe but what the Qur'anic verse says.

I like your respect you pose in your post. That's commendable.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
May I ask what you believe?
Doesn't Quir'an and hadith lead one to believe that Jesus AS will return?
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It depends on a lot of things.

The Qur'an does not say anywhere that Jesus returns. Nothing explicit whatsoever unless someone jumps through 20 hoops.

Ahadith do. So this distinction should be made. Closer inspection of these ahadith will show you that none of them are Sarih. It's a debated question, but it's true that the ahadith are not Sarih. So it is a faith matter, not an evidence based Akal matter. I do believe it's an israeliath issue with ahadith.

Cheers.
 
Firedragon said:
Ahadith do. So this distinction should be made. Closer inspection of these ahadith will show you that none of them are Sarih. It's a debated question, but it's true that the ahadith are not Sarih. So it is a faith matter, not an evidence based Akal matter..
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Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
- Sahih Bukhari -
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2476

Isn't that a sahih hadith?
 
muhammad_isa said:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
- Sahih Bukhari -
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2476

Isn't that a sahih hadith?
Click to expand...

I said Sarih brother. Not Sahih.

Anyway, think about this. Do you know about Malik Ibn Anas? The ahadith attributed to his collection are called the golden chain. Why? Because they are supposedly the most authentic. Golden chain. in his ahadith, one hadith says that Jesus is in peace with pigs. Why would a latter hadith coming from Imam Buhari say something totally contradictory? Use your God given Akal brother. What is the point of killing pigs while the MOST AUTHENTIC hadith says that Jesus said to Pigs to go in peace??

I am not saying you have to be dogmatic, but with this particular hadith, why not question these contradictory pictures? Please consider these things. Yes?
 
Firedragon said:
Why would a latter hadith coming from Imam Buhari say something totally contradictory? Use your God given Akal brother. What is the point of killing pigs while the MOST AUTHENTIC hadith says that Jesus said to Pigs to go in peace??
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I thought for a hadith to be sahih, it has to have several chains of transmission.
In any case, I don't interpret the hadith to be a literal going around breaking crosses and killing pigs.
..rather, Jesus AS would "kill" the idea that crosses and pig eating were part of piety.
 
This breaking, killing, violent Christ is certainly out of character, imo
 
RJM said:
This breaking, killing, violent Christ is certainly out of character, imo
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Well, he did send a herd of pigs to drown, according to Mt. 8:28-34... And he spoke stern warnings to those who call him, "Master, Master" but neglect their duties... so not entirely out of character, as portrayed in the Gospels.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
I thought for a hadith to be sahih, it has to have several chains of transmission.
In any case, I don't interpret the hadith to be a literal going around breaking crosses and killing pigs.
..rather, Jesus AS would "kill" the idea that crosses and pig eating were part of piety.
Click to expand...

Sahih is a grade. It's not "several chains". There is no concept like that. Although, some ahadith are narrated by different people and will have several chains therefore. Just because someone says a hadith is Sahih, that does not mean it's like Allah's Kalam. This hadith you are quoting throughout history has been named as doubtful by many scholars including Ibn Mujahid, Fakruddhin arraazi, Kaadhiyath etc. And you are imposing a allegorical interpretation brother, which does not have any grounds. Also you should consider many other things like the hadith being mathrook, narrated by Abu Hurrairah, but never by Malik Ibn Anas which is strange.

Sarih means "Unproblematic". That means even though there is a chain, it may have problems within the chain, conflicts with Akal, and Israeliyath, etc etc. Ahadith are always Kabrul Ahadh.

Cannot blindly embrace something brother.
 
Firedragon said:
Sahih is a grade. It's not "several chains". There is no concept like that.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_terminology#Ṣaḥīḥ

That appears to contradict you.

Firedragon said:
..Just because someone says a hadith is Sahih, that does not mean it's like Allah's Kalam.
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Agreed upon.

Firedragon said:
..you are imposing a allegorical interpretation brother, which does not have any grounds.
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I'm saying that that is how I see it. :)
I'm not saying that the majority of classical scholars would agree.


Firedragon said:
Sarih means "Unproblematic". That means even though there is a chain, it may have problems within the chain, conflicts with Akal, and Israeliyath, etc etc. Ahadith are always Kabrul Ahadh.

Cannot blindly embrace something brother.
Click to expand...
Well, there are many sahih hadiths about the return of Jesus AS.
Here's another..

Jabir ibn Abdullah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Jesus the son of Mary, peace and blessings be upon him, will descend and the Muslim leader will say: Come lead us in prayer. Jesus will say: No, some of you are leaders over others, as Allah has honored this nation.”
- Sahih Muslim -

If you question all sahih hadiths that mention the return of Jesus, I would presume that you reject many other hadiths,
unlike the majority of so-called sunni Muslims [orthodox] that I've come across.
 
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