Quran says that Jesus Christ died a natural death.

[RJM]

Actually, I was referring to 4:158.
..but OK .. you want to talk about 3:55

@Firedragon
Sorry, am I stupid?
Can you not post the breakdown for the passage 4:158 to which @muhammad_isa refers? Not to a different oasssge?

 

[Firedragon]

OK .. I see you are not satisfied with the reliability of hadith.

That's a false statement Muhammad. I never said that. I think you are just trying to make it some kind of ad hominem to escape researching anything I have said. If you want, I can state them again but I can vouch that you will never in a dream do the study that's required or honestly make that exploration.

Yet, if you want, ask the question.

No hadith that you present are Sarih. Zilch.

I notice that you don't want to rely on any other information other than the Qur'an.

That's a blatant lie.

 

[Firedragon]

@Firedragon
Sorry, am I stupid?
Can you not post the breakdown for the passage 4:158 to which @muhammad_isa refers? Not to a different oasssge?

Sorry RJM. If you want an opinion on a particular verse of the Qur'an, just ask. Not a problem.

The person you refer to was not referring to this verse 4:158 with me. He was referring to verse 3:55. But if you want, I will breakdown the verse you wish to see broken down. Not a problem. Do you understand?

I can simply quote the verse you are referring to by memory my friend. If you wish you can go back and see one of my posts where I just quoted the significant part in arabic. it says ma kathaloohoo, wa ma salaboohoo. It says Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified. It's referring to the claims of the people of the time. It says "wa kawlihim", which means "they said so".

So it's absolutely true that the Qur'an says that people said that they crucified him, and killed him, but they didn't.

So brother, if you wish you could ask me further questions.

Cheers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's a false statement Muhammad. I never said that. I think you are just trying to make it some kind of ad hominem to escape researching anything I have said..

No. I accept that the hadiths about Jesus' return often are "ahad", or do not have many chains of transmission. You informed me of that, and I looked into it and found you are right.
However, there are many of them .. I find that significant.

That's a blatant lie.

Right .. so you do rely on other information other than the Qur'an.
..but presumably not historic documents other than Islamic ones?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The person you refer to was not referring to this verse 4:158 with me. He was referring to verse 3:55.

No, I was not.
I will not call it "a blatant lie". You really should look again at my post #124 and #127

 

[Firedragon]

Right .. so you do rely on other information other than the Qur'an.

I know that a lot of people have a habit of doing their favourite sectarian game as soon as they don't like what someone says.

If you actually go through this exchange again rather than being sectarian, you will note that I have said I am using traditional sunni scholarship, and I have given you ahadith scholars over and over again.

No, I was not.
I will not call it "a blatant lie". You really should look again at my post #124 and #127

That's cute, but the blatant lie is to try to impose your sectarian ad hominem about me only relying on the Qur'an.

 

[muhammad_isa]

note that I have said I am using traditional sunni scholarship, and I have given you ahadith scholars over and over again.

You can follow whatever scholars you think have the best argument. It's not for me to say.
..so what about discussing the verse I was referring to, 4:158 ..

(4:158:1) bal Nay,		RET– retraction particle حرف اضراب
(4:158:2) rafaʿahu he was raised		V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun فعل ماض والهاء ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
(4:158:3) l-lahu (by) Allah		PN – nominative proper noun → Allah لفظ الجلالة مرفوع
(4:158:4) ilayhi towards Him.		P – preposition PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun جار ومجرور

In context..

157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
158 Nay, he was raised (by) Allah towards Him.
- Surah An-Nisaa -

What do you think about verse 158?

 

[RJM]

I will breakdown the verse you wish to see broken down.

Verse 4:158 please

So it's absolutely true that the Qur'an says that people said that they crucified him, and killed him, but they didn't.

Which means He was raised alive to Allah?

Sorry, I know this is the Islam forum, but the death on the cross seems to be a fundamental difference between Muslim and Christian belief?
(edited)

 

[RJM]

@Firedragon
Or is the implication that Jesus survived the cross and went on to die a natural death and was then raised to Allah? This would seem to be the only other conclusion?

 

[Firedragon]

You can follow whatever scholars you think have the best argument. It's not for me to say.
..so what about discussing the verse I was referring to, 4:158 ..

(4:158:1) bal Nay,		RET– retraction particle حرف اضراب
(4:158:2) rafaʿahu he was raised		V – 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun فعل ماض والهاء ضمير متصل في محل نصب مفعول به
(4:158:3) l-lahu (by) Allah		PN – nominative proper noun → Allah لفظ الجلالة مرفوع
(4:158:4) ilayhi towards Him.		P – preposition PRON– 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun جار ومجرور

In context..

157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
158 Nay, he was raised (by) Allah towards Him.
- Surah An-Nisaa -

What do you think about verse 158?

 

[Firedragon]

Verse 4:158 please
Which means He was raised alive to Allah?

Sorry, I know this is the Islam forum, but the death on the cross seems to be a fundamental difference between Muslim and Christian belief?
(edited)

Again, it's true that the Qur'an says he was neither killed or crucified by them as claimed. There is no negation of that.

 

[Firedragon]

@Firedragon
Or is the implication that Jesus survived the cross and went on to die a natural death and was then raised to Allah? This would seem to be the only other conclusion?

There is no such implication. That part has to be assumed. I have been asked how long he lived, how many kids he had, or if he was gay, or if Jesus went to India, etc etc etc. None of that is mentioned in the Qur'an so all one could do is make conjecture.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@Firedragon
Come on .. you can do better than your #post150.
Comment directly on the verse 4:158 please!

i.e. show us the word for word meaning

 

[RJM]

so all one could do is make conjecture.

To which you are not prepared to commit? Ok. Understood

 

[Firedragon]

To which you are not prepared to commit? Ok. Understood

Yes RJM. When something is not spelled out, and is unnecessary for my theology, there is no need to make false claims that I am not sure of or don't know about.

Hope you understand.

Cheers.

 

[Firedragon]

@Firedragon
Come on .. you can do better than your #post150.
Comment directly on the verse 4:158 please!

i.e. show us the word for word meaning

Comment on that verse?

Was done earlier. Maybe you did not understand.

It does not say Jesus was taken to heaven alive like you claimed and which no verse claims so, neither does that claim he was an "awaited Jewish Messiah" like you falsely claimed with no substantiation, and neither does that verse say anything about how long Jesus lived or anything of the sort.

I already explained this verse. At least twice or maybe even many more times. Ma Salaboohoo, wa ma kathaloohoo. And it was only Shubbihaa.

 

[RJM]

Hope you understand.

Cheers.

Yes. Thank you

 

[muhammad_isa]

I already explained this verse. At least twice or maybe even many more times. Ma Salaboohoo, wa ma kathaloohoo. And it was only Shubbihaa.

Please don't try to avoid the issue. You are discussing verse 157 !
158 please.

 

[muhammad_isa]

When something is not spelled out, and is unnecessary for my theology, there is no need to make false claims that I am not sure of or don't know about.

I quite agree.
..but what I can't understand is why you are not more careful in your replies to me about verse 4:158.
At first, I assumed that you just made a mistake in your replies.
..but now I am beginning to feel that you are deliberately avoiding that particular verse.

 

[Firedragon]

I quite agree.
..but what I can't understand is why you are not more careful in your replies to me about verse 4:158.
At first, I assumed that you just made a mistake in your replies.
..but now I am beginning to feel that you are deliberately avoiding that particular verse.

I replied several times. If you feel something, maybe that's projection. I can't help with that.

You wish me to cut and paste my reply again? Okay. no problem.

I already explained this verse. At least twice or maybe even many more times. Ma Salaboohoo, wa ma kathaloohoo. And it was only Shubbihaa.

Try to read the whole Qur'an, not one selected verse alone. Okay?

Quran says that Jesus was taken to God in 4:158. But in 3:55 it says that his life ended. He was caused to die.

So when you read a book written by one person, you must take the whole book. Not one verse in isolation. That's how you can avoid cherry picking or what people call as quote mining.

Hope you understand.