Guidance

Thomas

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Bearing in mind the above, I'll get to the nub of my queries ...

You's declared the principles of the RHP a delusion, but the affirmation of subjectivity is risky when it's evident that the self is the most fallible element in the whole equation?

The sobering message is: Those who do not learn by history are doomed to repeat it.

For me, detachment and discernment are the pre-requisites of the Great Work, without the need of rejecting the world, just a recognition of what it is.
 

Nicholas Weeks

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Evening all,

I'm new here, for as long as I can remember I've always felt a connection with "God" I know there is something there. I'm quite methodical and like to get things "right" if you like, perhaps that isn't the best way to put it but I hope you know what I mean.

I've always felt extremely conflicted about the correct way to give myself to God or the power I know exists, as of right now I would probably best call myself a Christian, but even then I feel like a lost sheep....

Welcome Seeking. How old are you?
 

Modesty

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I highly agree with this.

I greatly dislike when somebody portrays those they disagree with as "illogical" simply because they came to different conclusions. That's not necessarily illogical.

The limitation of logic is that we need premises to plug into the formal structure. In the modern age, most of these premises come in the form direct observations, well-supported hypotheses, or previous conclusions arrived at through logical inference.

In other words, even if our logic is perfectly free of fallacy (not too hard) and bias (very difficult) then our logic is only ever as good as the information that we have available to us. Naturally, we will frequently come to incorrect conclusions if we are ignorant or misinformed, more or less through no fault of our own.

So we can have disagreements and still both arrive at our conclusions logically.

That said, I do think Isaac Newton and Kierkegaard are good counter-examples here but I'm not so sure Aquinas is a good choice. I might make some threads on Aquinas in the future to show what I mean and maybe I'll be shown to be mistaken.

ETA: Another pet peeve of mine is when people use "faith" as evidence rather than evidence leading them to their faith

I'd personally welcome a thread on your thoughts on Aquinas! I referenced him because I think he was an extraordinary intelligent man, and my understanding is that his contributions to Scholasticism was revolutionary in marrying faith and logic, but I don't know too much about him (or admittedly, the formal study of logic at all).
 
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Modesty

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Please note that I never referred to anyone as delusional, I referred to faith as a delusion. There is a difference, allow me explain from a Left Hand Path perspective.

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's Right Hand Path religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest achievement that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being/Energy/Universal Reality. The way in which this is achieved is through the deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Universal Reality. When this union is completed the individual self is annihilated, the individual Will becomes one with that alleged Universal Reality.

This faith in a Universal Reality, usually referred to as God, is seen by the Left Hand Path as without evidence, illogical, and induces mental suffering.

To hold a delusion, it follows that someone must be deluded, at least in part. I respect your belief system but from what you've posted in this thread I have to echo the sentiment; I don't see how this perspective contains any more logic or scientific basis than the belief in God, or a 'Universal Reality' as you term it.
 

Ella S.

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I'd personally welcome a thread on your thoughts on Aquinas! I referenced him because I think he was an extraordinary intelligent man, and my understanding is that his contributions to Scholasticism was revolutionary in marrying faith and logic, but I don't know too much about him (or admittedly, the formal study of logic at all).

I agree that Aquinas was a great contributor to Western thought. I think some threads on him would be quite interesting.

I recently dabbled into a bit of Aquinas over here in this other thread if you're interested.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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To hold a delusion, it follows that someone must be deluded, at least in part. I respect your belief system but from what you've posted in this thread I have to echo the sentiment; I don't see how this perspective contains any more logic or scientific basis than the belief in God, or a 'Universal Reality' as you term it.
We all perceive something in our own state of being that does not seem to be explainable in terms of objective reality. We are never satisfied that we can be explained or defined merely in terms of electro-chemical equations, even very elaborate ones. There is, we often feel, a connection to something unique to each of us and ultimately more essential than our objective, physical substance. Our Consciousness does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance and differentiation from everything else that exists.

Neuroscience and our Greater Self
Is the mind simply another word for the brain, an organ in the head that fools us into thinking that the self, the “inescapable I,” is a genuine entity? Dr. Egnor explains the materialist view in its several successive historical manifestations, and why, despite its pervasive influence, it hardly qualifies as a serious perspective. Egnor details the findings of his own field, neuroscience. These indicate that something extra, something immaterial, is joined with the material body to form the complete human being. That something extra is traditionally designated as the soul.

You are more than a physical creature alone. Egnor cites, among other pieces of evidence, a 2006 study in the journal Science reporting that patients in a persistent vegetative state, contrary to how their condition appears clinically, are not all absent as personalities. Even with a severely damaged, shrunken brain, the non-material person is somehow still there, and aware. For example, as functional magnetic resonance imaging shows, many such patients, just like healthy people, can distinguish the sound of meaningful sentences from syntactical gibberish. That should be impossible under materialist assumptions.
______________________
Michael R. Egnor, MD
Professor of Neurosurgery
State University of New York
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Ah, no, not really.
Jesus illuminated the Law from within, as it were, which is why his opponents were never quite able to pin him down on a point of law.
We don't really know what Yeshua said and didn't, or if he existed at all, we do know what other people say that Yeshua said, unfortunately, these same people are religiously agenda-driven, such as Paul who for the most part invented Christianity.

The alleged teachings of Jesus appear to be heretical views of Judaism. Evidence inside the Gospels shows the antinomian nature of Jesus’ work and teachings. Jesus rejected the practice of the Law. In words reported to be his own, he says: “think not that I am come to send peace upon the earth: I came not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, etc.” Jesus was a social revolutionary bent upon the annihilation of the family and tribes as the Jews had known them. In contradistinction to the orthodox Jewish belief in the salvation of the whole people at a future time, Jesus taught the salvation of the individual here and now. “... the kingdom of God is within you.”
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Buddha's recommendation of meditating over putrefying corpses doesn't count? (btw-he and his wife Yashodhara had one child--their son Rahula. Legend has it that he began his quest for the answer to suffering the night Rahula was born. Seeing his wife suffer in childbirth might very well have been the thing that prompted him to go on his quest. Yashodhara joined the sangha as a nun and Rahula started training as a monk with Buddha when Rahula was seven years old. Many of his other family members also joined him in the sangha.
If he was "meditating over putrefying corpses" he must have been a practicing Aghora Shaivite.
 

RJM

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We can't use things that still work?
Didn't ever, imo
And although Paul preached and spread Christianity, he didn't invent it. If so he was a surpassing genius. It has absorbed the minds of kings and beggars and wise men and fools for two millennia. Many people have tried to invent a religion and few lasted more than a few years. There have been many 'revolutionaries' whose influence and philosophy did not become a religion that lasted two thousand years. So the phenomenon of Christianity cannot be laid on Paul imo, ubiquitous as the fallacy may be
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Buddha lived around 1800 years before Baba Keenaram, founder of the Aghori Shaiviete sect, was born.
The Vedic period is considered to be around 1500–600 BCE, around the time of the composition of the four sacred Vedic texts (Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda, and Atharvaveda). And we have evidence that Shiva worship, as well as yoga, predates this period.
The Pashupati seal (dated around 2350-2000 BC), discovered in the Indus Valley Civilization shows the figures of yogi sitting in the lotus posture. This figure is considered to be Shiva by many scholars.

John Marshall gives the following reasons why he considers this figure to be Shiva:
“My reasons for the identification are four. In the first place, the figure has three faces and Siva was portrayed with three as well as with more usual five faces, there are abundant examples to prove this. Secondly, the head is crowned with the horns of a bull and the trisula are characteristic emblems of Siva. Thirdly, the figure is in a typical yoga attitude, and Siva was and still is, regarded as a mahayogi—the prince of Yogis - . Fourthly, he is surrounded by animals, and Siva is par excellence the "Lord of Animals" (Pasupati)—of the wild animals of the jungle, according to the Vedic meaning of the word pasu, no less than that of domesticated cattle.”

There are also other similar seals of Shiva found in the 4th Century BC. There are Shivalingas found from 3500 BCE to 2300 BCE. The Bhimbetka rock shelters (dated pre-10,000 BCE period) show figures of Shiva dancing, Shiva's trident, and his mount Nandi. These are evidence showing that Shiva worship existed in the pre-Vedic period. Shiva in the yogic tradition is seen as the first yogi, Adiyogi, who taught the yogic sciences over 15,000 years back.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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The Buddha also recommended meditating in silence. He must have been a Quaker!
Pretty sure the Quaker's Silent Meditation is more a form of silent worship than it is an actual meditation practice.
 

SeekingTheWay

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This thread has drifted considerably. Sorry for that, @SeekingTheWay - it's just what happens. Did you get some new perspectives from what we all shared, at least?


please don't apologise, I am finding this conversation very enlightening, exactly the kind of exchanges I was hoping to spark to widen my knowledge on points people have raised.
 

Cino

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These are evidence showing that Shiva worship existed in the pre-Vedic period. Shiva in the yogic tradition is seen as the first yogi, Adiyogi, who taught the yogic sciences over 15,000 years back.

Yes, seals from the Indus Valley Civilization were found depicting a figure seated in what looks like the Lotus posture. That doesn't mean the producers of these seals were Kashmir Saivite devotees.

Sure, there was this tradition of mendicant holy men, the Sramanas / Samanas, in parallel to the Vedic culture, at the time of the Buddha. Many rival teachers and sects are reported in Buddhist and Jain texts of the time. Some practiced what we would today call Aghori practices. That doesn't mean they were Kashmir Saivite devotees.

ObMontyPython:
"Aristotle was not Belgian ... the London Underground is not a political movement ... I looked it up." ;)
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Didn't ever, imo
The rationale is that Judaism was difficult to join and follow, Paul invented a Judaic Apocalyptic Cult 20 years after the alleged death of Yeshua in order to fill a demand.

Nietzsche claimed that the Apostle Paul deliberately propagated Christianity as a subversive religion (a "psychological warfare weapon") within the Roman Empire as a form of covert revenge for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and of the Second Temple in 71 AD during the Jewish War of 66–73 AD.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Yes, seals from the Indus Valley Civilization were found depicting a figure seated in what looks like the Lotus posture. That doesn't mean the producers of these seals were Kashmir Saivite devotees.
No, they weren't Kashmir Shaivites, they were Shiva devotees.

Sure, there was this tradition of mendicant holy men, the Sramanas / Samanas, in parallel to the Vedic culture, at the time of the Buddha. Many rival teachers and sects are reported in Buddhist and Jain texts of the time. Some practiced what we would today call Aghori practices. That doesn't mean they were Kashmir Saivite devotees.
I believe the point of this particular conversation is that Charnel Ground meditation disciplines predate Guatama Buddha.
 
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