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seattlegal

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No, they weren't Kashmir Shaivites, they were Shiva devotees.

I believe the point of this particular conversation is that Charnel Ground meditation disciplines predate Guatama Buddha.
I don't know if the Buddha practiced meditation over corpses in the Charnel grounds. The suttas talk about coming across a corpse in various states of decay on the side of the road and such.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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I don't know if the Buddha practiced meditation over corpses in the Charnel grounds. The suttas talk about coming across a corpse in various states of decay on the side of the road and such.
Then why are you bringing this up?
 

Cino

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I don't know if the Buddha practiced meditation over corpses in the Charnel grounds. The suttas talk about coming across a corpse in various states of decay on the side of the road and such.

It's right there in Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha's comprehensive manual of mindfulness meditation. Scroll down to section I "Mindfulness of the Body", subsection 6, "The 9 Cemetery Contemplations".

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body dead one, two, or three days ... thrown in the charnel ground, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."
 

seattlegal

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It's right there in Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha's comprehensive manual of mindfulness meditation. Scroll down to section I "Mindfulness of the Body", subsection 6, "The 9 Cemetery Contemplations".

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body dead one, two, or three days ... thrown in the charnel ground, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."
Ahh, thanks!
 

seattlegal

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The Vedic period is considered to be around 1500–600 BCE, around the time of the composition of the four sacred Vedic texts (Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda, and Atharvaveda). And we have evidence that Shiva worship, as well as yoga, predates this period.
The Pashupati seal (dated around 2350-2000 BC), discovered in the Indus Valley Civilization shows the figures of yogi sitting in the lotus posture. This figure is considered to be Shiva by many scholars.

John Marshall gives the following reasons why he considers this figure to be Shiva:
“My reasons for the identification are four. In the first place, the figure has three faces and Siva was portrayed with three as well as with more usual five faces, there are abundant examples to prove this. Secondly, the head is crowned with the horns of a bull and the trisula are characteristic emblems of Siva. Thirdly, the figure is in a typical yoga attitude, and Siva was and still is, regarded as a mahayogi—the prince of Yogis - . Fourthly, he is surrounded by animals, and Siva is par excellence the "Lord of Animals" (Pasupati)—of the wild animals of the jungle, according to the Vedic meaning of the word pasu, no less than that of domesticated cattle.”

There are also other similar seals of Shiva found in the 4th Century BC. There are Shivalingas found from 3500 BCE to 2300 BCE. The Bhimbetka rock shelters (dated pre-10,000 BCE period) show figures of Shiva dancing, Shiva's trident, and his mount Nandi. These are evidence showing that Shiva worship existed in the pre-Vedic period. Shiva in the yogic tradition is seen as the first yogi, Adiyogi, who taught the yogic sciences over 15,000 years back.
I don't think the god Shiva is in the Vedas.
 

RJM

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The rationale is that Judaism was difficult to join and follow, Paul invented a Judaic Apocalyptic Cult 20 years after the alleged death of Yeshua in order to fill a demand.

Nietzsche claimed that the Apostle Paul deliberately propagated Christianity as a subversive religion (a "psychological warfare weapon") within the Roman Empire as a form of covert revenge for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and of the Second Temple in 71 AD during the Jewish War of 66–73 AD.
I know. I don't buy a word of it. Some people say Jesus was a space alien. Doesnt make it true.

Like I say Paul must've been a pretty smart dude to invent a religion and philosophy that has shaped history and filled libraries and inspired timeless art for 2000 years and which still occupies the deepest minds today, and which people continue to discuss and dispute all over the world, including right here.

Could be Christ simply is just who he says he is?

As for Nietszche, lol ...
 
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Cino

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As for Nietszche, lol ...

Although he's mainly remembered for the line "God is dead", he was a great poet and philosopher.

By the way, in context, the famous quote is embedded in a little parable, called "The Madman":

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!" — As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? — Thus they yelled and laughed.

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him -- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.”

(Emphasis mine, to highlight the phrase in the passage)

I know it was not what I expected when I decided to read Nietzsche way back when.

My favorite quote of his, by the way is:

One has to have Chaos inside oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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"Lord of all the animals" was an epithet of Rudra in the Rig Veda. Is Rudra the same as Shiva? Hmmm.
Yep, Pashupati. Rudra, Shiva . . . . the important thing to me is the advent of Shaivism's realization of the Greater Self and the LHP. Heretically removing themselves from the RHP of Vedic tradition.
 

Ella S.

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Although he's mainly remembered for the line "God is dead", he was a great poet and philosopher.

Indeed. He also influenced psychology. It's a shame that the corruption of his works by the Nazis completely redefined Nietzsche into some sort of Social Darwinist promoting the amoral pursuit of personal, individual power and changing the concept of an Ubermensch from a sage to a sociopath.

That's what happens when you can't understand philosophy, though.
 

Cino

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It's a shame that the corruption of his works by the Nazis completely redefined Nietzsche

His sister was in charge of his literary estate after he died. She also had a hand in the redefinition of his work.
 

Thomas

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The alleged teachings of Jesus appear to be heretical views of Judaism.
Appear so, but are not.

Jesus rejected the practice of the Law.
Not quite. He rejected 'legalism', not the Law.

Jesus was a social revolutionary bent upon the annihilation of the family and tribes as the Jews had known them.
Ah, context, context!

Jesus taught the salvation of the individual here and now. “... the kingdom of God is within you.”
Yes, repentance and baptism.
 

Ella S.

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Appear so, but are not.

I find that whole debate about whether Jesus was a heretic interesting.

I'm unfortunately not too familiar with Second Temple Judaism but, as I understand it, a lot of this question rests on who the messiah was supposed to be and whether Jesus fulfills that criteria.

It seems like the modern Christian perspective of the messiah and the modern Jewish perspective of the messiah couldn't be more different but I don't know if this was the case during the Second Temple period.

ETA: I also just realized that prophecies about a coming messiah are probably the source of the common "Chosen One" trope in fantasy. I'm not sure why it took me this long to make that connection.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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By the first century A.D., the Jews were looking for strong, magnetic leaders who could deliver them from the wrath of the Roman Empire. The Essenes developed the idea of a messiah figure that would provide this. Several Jewish leaders were set to take over after the death of the Jewish King Herod, who primarily worked for the Romans. To qualify as a messiah, someone needed to be from the bloodline of King David. None of the descendants of King David and their misled disciples succeeded, and most were killed.

While these messiah figures drew support from the claim they descended from King David, wherein Judaic tradition did this claim that Davidic pedigree was necessary to become a Messiah come from? When King David ruled Israel (circa 10th century B.C.E.), the conviction arose that his progeny would “rule forever, not only over Israel but also over all the nations”.

One that stands out is a former slave of King Herod by the name of Simon of Perea. Simon was the first heretical Jew who managed to convince a large portion of the Jews that he was the King of Jews and Jehova's Messiah. When the Roman Empire caught wind of this they dispatched military units to put an end to this claim. They would eventually corner and behead Simon in 4 B.C.

Anthronges was another deified Messiah who waged a serious war against the Roman Empire and also lost. Next came Yeshua the Nazarene. Proclaiming himself king of the Jews, Yeshua was eventually hunted down and crucified. Oddly enough, Yeshua was far from a warrior, would never be able to lead men in battle or control the logistics of a military campaign. Had King David met Yeshua, he would have been greatly disappointed with the gentle ideas of this self-proclaimed messiah.

New Testament scholar, Bart Ehrman, eloquently stated:
"To call Jesus the messiah was for most Jews completely ludicrous. Jesus was not the powerful leader of the Jews. He was a weak and powerless nobody—executed in the most humiliating and painful way devised by the Romans, the ones with the real power.”

After Yeshua there came a dozen other Messianic campaigns, none of which are publicized by the Abrahamic faith, and all of which ultimately failed. Theudas in 58 C.E., Menachem ben Judah ben Hezekiah, Simon ben Kosevah, Moses of Crete, Abu Isa, Al-Ra'i" ("the shepherd of the flock of his people"), Saüra the Syrian, to name a few.

Ultimately, there has never been a true Jewish messiah because they all failed in their missions and were killed by the Romans. Yeshua (Jesus) failed as a messiah and stood in a long line of failed messiahs.
 

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By the first century A.D., the Jews were looking for strong, magnetic leaders who could deliver them from the wrath of the Roman Empire.
OK.

Next came Yeshua the Nazarene. Proclaiming himself king of the Jews...
Not His claim, though, was it?

Yeshua was eventually hunted down and crucified.
Hardly. He went up to Jerusalem. I'd say He delivered Himself.

Oddly enough, Yeshua was far from a warrior, would never be able to lead men in battle or control the logistics of a military campaign.
Oooh, can you be sure? Throughout history, the oddest sorts have proved quite capable leaders. I agree His purpose was not military, but He seemed able to attract thousands, and had useful supporters, and the control of logistics was rarely the work of the Leader, usually there's a really capable team operating in the less romantic field of logistical support ...

New Testament scholar, Bart Ehrman, eloquently stated: "To call Jesus the messiah was for most Jews completely ludicrous...
For the warmonger ... but not every Jew was bent on a bloody uprising, the diaspora shows us that. The Jews settled quite well into the wider world. In Jesus' day, there was much about Greek culture the Jews admired, much about Jewish culture the Greeks admired. The picture is not quite so black-and-white as had been painted, post WWII Jewish scholarship has offered major contributions on that (In the sense that, pre WWII, other scholars were less inclined to listen.)

The Romans are ... just ... Romans, admired no doubt for practicalities, but thin on the ground culturally ... with some notable exceptions, of course.

Yeshua (Jesus) failed as a messiah and stood in a long line of failed messiahs.
An opinion I happen not to share.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Not His claim, though, was it?
Here we go with the Christian apologetics. Why is it Christians don't even know their own book? A Satanist shouldn't have to explain this to them. These are direct declarations, but there are other verses that allude to his declaration as King of Jews.

Matthew 21:5
" Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

Revelation 19:16
“And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Hardly. He went up to Jerusalem. I'd say He delivered Himself.
According to the Gospels, the Sanhedrin, an elite council of priestly and lay elders, arrested Jesus during the Jewish festival of Passover, deeply threatened by his teachings. They dragged him before Pilate to be tried for blasphemy—for claiming, they said, to be King of the Jews


Oooh, can you be sure? Throughout history, the oddest sorts have proved quite capable leaders. I agree His purpose was not military, but He seemed able to attract thousands, and had useful supporters, and the control of logistics was rarely the work of the Leader, usually there's a really capable team operating in the less romantic field of logistical support ...
I suppose we'll never really know what kind of leader he would have been.
 
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