The Laws of Moses......... perfect for their time.

Discussion in 'History and Mythology' started by badger, May 10, 2022.

  1. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,128
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    The Commandments are part of the Covenant. At the time, covenants were common forms of treaty between powerful kings and their vassals. Hittite overlord, Mesopotaminan vassal principality, Egyptian Pharaoh, Levantine vassal state... some of these covenant treaty texts were recovered by archaeologists, and this kind of clause at the end was a common feature.
     
  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    1,831
  3. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    French law?
    So much for the French Revolution .....;)
     
    Cino likes this.
  4. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    I think that the laws of Moses were much more social, though. Did you notice my post which showed the many poor laws? And as I trawl through the laws it seems as if Land could not be bought and sold as freehold, only as leasehold. While I look through I'm hoping to find/see the law that forbid Levites (Priesthood) from owning land, they could only posses their homes. But so far I can't find it.
     
  5. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Ha ha! Cino, I've just realised that Anatole's quote is relevant to the UK at this time, where relatives have been unable to see their loved ones before death due to Covid rules....while our leaders were partying together.

    I also think that this was the Baptist's and Jesus's main concern, two millennia back. The Levite ruling clan were fat, greedy, corrupt and hypocritical. BUt that's just how I see it all.
     
  6. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Deuteronomy {4:1} Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do [them,] that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. {4:2} Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    No redactions, no amendments.
     
  7. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Deuteronomy {4:8} And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

    Sometimes folks tell that these laws were not so new, that their like had existed before, elsewhere. Maybe one, or two, or a few..... but not such a collection as this, I'm thinking.
    That this legislation had been written by mankind all that time ago is remarkable.
     
  8. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Deuteronomy {8:17} And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of [mine] hand hath gotten me this wealth. {8:18} But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, ..................................

    What a good lesson for any era, for any people........
    I believe that it is Nature, Fate and Luck which give us our strengths, our intellects and our abilities.
    Nature, Fate and Luck also give us our weaknesses and inabilities.

    Yet many strong and clever people strut their successes with claims such as 'I did all this!' No, they did not........ Nature, Fate and Luck were on their side, I think.
    What do you think?
     
  9. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    1,831
    I think you change what scripture actually says to something it does not say, and then deduce a meaning of your own.

    The first commandment does not say thou shall have no other gods before Nature, Fate and Luck, imo ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
  10. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    I change nothing.
    I simply have beliefs, thus:-
    I believe that it is Nature, Fate and Luck which give us our strengths, our intellects and our abilities.
    Nature, Fate and Luck also give us our weaknesses and inabilities.

    If you think that it is God who hands out disability to folks then, fair enough.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    12,134
    Likes Received:
    2,486
    The first three commandments might be said to be particular to the Jews, although whatever or whoever your god was, you were his/hers, so even here there is a certain commonality, and the gods were usually jealous, possessive and quick to anger.

    Interestingly, in the 'theatrical' setting as detailed in Exodus 20: the mountain, fire, smoke, trumpets ... echo some of the details given in other covenant accounts. There would be sacred fires, the sounding of horns and trumpets, drums and gongs, usually there was a procession from the low to high, and so on.

    Further on, it is said that the only acceptable sacrifice is on the altar in the temple, all of which is detailed, but then very soon the Kings and patriarchs of Israel were raising altars wherever, and offering sacrifice. Of course, these altars would be sanctioned by God, and reference the temple.
     
    Cino likes this.
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    12,134
    Likes Received:
    2,486
    I think that's a too literal reading of the idea, although I will accept that people tend to read it literally, as indeed, one could argue you place too much emphasis on Nature, Fate and Luck.

    Ontologically, of course, everything come from the First Cause, but locally I'd factor in a bit of genetics, a bit of nurture, a huge dollop of random contingency, which I suppose one might attribute to 'fate' and 'luck'.
     
  13. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Oh....that's all a natural reading of the idea.
    There isn't a condition that isn't linked to ability or disability, and all are part of Nature, part of the chaos or chance.

    And that fits so well with Deuteronomy 8:18

    A Theist might offer: 'There but for the grace of God, go I.'
    A Deist would offer: 'There but for Nature's chance.' At least, I would.
     
  14. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    1,831
    To me that is equating your own Deist belief with the scripture of a people who clearly do not share it? The laws of Moses reference God/the Lord and to drop that part is to disregard the central issue and purpose?
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    12,134
    Likes Received:
    2,486
    True.

    This Theist acknowledges both: The Divine Nature and the Contingency of Creation.
     
    RJM likes this.
  16. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,128
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    I remember having read or been told that the first few commandments have parallels with some Hittite treaty texts - only there, it is the Hittite King who is to be loved with all the vassal's heart etc.

    There are interesting differences between the Commandments as detailed in Deuteronomy, and those in Exodus - for example, regarding the festival of Passover, and, as you hint at, acceptable location(s) for sacrificing. I'm way out of my depth here, but again, I remember having read that the Exodus version reflected the nomadic lifestyle pre conquest of Canaan, while the Deuteronomy version has even been interpreted as the scroll of the Law discovered during King Josiah's temple repairs?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    badger likes this.
  17. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    I don't believe that Jesus supported more than his God and his God's laws, especially the poor laws. The laws of Moses were written for the children of Israel.

    You mention 'dropping parts'.......... I get the impression that Christianity dropped hundreds of those parts.
     
  18. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Nature is the absolute ruler here, so I guess in that sense Nature could be regarded as divine.
    But I don't accept creation, only our existence through the chance of chaos.
     
  19. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    1,831
    With God/the Lord front and centre?
    Can you detail them? Altho this thread is not about Christianity?
    However the authors and followers of the laws of Moses did, and still do ... so ... removing God/the Lord out of it ... to infer from them other than their stated intention?

    edited ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
  20. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2022
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    318
    Ah, but I think that mankind wrote those laws, and in your case I am writing to a Christian, and as a Deist I have to believe that Nature rules here.
    You asked if I can detail all the laws left out by Christianity, all I can say is that many were redacted, unless you would like to correct that.
     

Share This Page