The Laws of Moses......... perfect for their time.

Discussion in 'History and Mythology' started by badger, May 10, 2022.

  1. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    But Jews do not. These are Jewish laws, to which God/the Lord is absolutely central. A person may not believe in God/the Lord -- but does that entitle taking Jewish law and stripping it of the central purpose and intention?
     
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  2. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the central purpose and intention was to produce a secure, safe, healthy, strong, successful and cohesive strength within the children if Israel.
     
  3. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy {15:1} At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. {15:2} And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it;] he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD’S release. {15:3} Of a foreigner thou mayest exact [it again:] but [that] which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release; {15:4} Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance to possess it:

    7 year releases from debts...15:4} Save when there shall be no poor among you;.....................

    A nation's success might be best judged by the lack of poverty within it....... yes? no?
     
  4. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    @Cino ....... Do you have knowledge of similar laws which predated the Laws of Moses? I've searched through IT but cannot find anything.
    It would be very important info if you do know of any......
     
  5. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    @Cino ......... update. I have managed to download the entire code of Hammurabi. 22 pages.
    That's homework for absolutely yonks....... I'm interested to compare those with Moses Laws.
     
  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Nice!

    I've seen the (replica for the public exhibition) Stele with the code of Hammurabi at the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.

    I'll see if I can find the Hittite treaty texts, but it's been a while, and I read about them in a boik back in the day.
     
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  7. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I copied the lot on to rtf wordpad as one document so I can search the whole piece for fast responses and read the lot at my leisure.

    And I'm up for any Hittite docs as well.
     
  8. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    If you google for "hittite treaty" or "mursilis tessub treaty", you'll get plenty of hits.
     
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  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Have you looked at the Law Code in light of a nation rebuilding itself and its identity following successive periods of exile?

    In many ways it was highly nationalistic, although this nationalism was shaped by a theological imperative.

    Of course Deuteronomy evolved over centuries, but certainly the idea of the Exodus and the Promised Land were pushed with a strong nationalist agenda to get a scattered people to return to Judah. In that, it was none too successful.

    If I were being overtly critical I'd say it was an attempt to guilt trip compliance – the basic premise being somewhat draconian, it's understandable that sound common sense and good measures were also introduced to sweeten the pill!
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
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  10. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I will........
    The only time that I read about the Hittites was in a Wilbur Smith story with the invasion of Northern Egypt as the back-drop. Faster chariots, stronger more efficient bows, a deadly foe. And so I would like to look further in to that name.
     
  11. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Yes....for example, Deuteronomy was a second reading, mostly....... a revision of all in a rebuilding.

    But not from a theological imperative, more to do with natural survival.
    An easy way to demonstrate this is through the sentence, 'Sin leads to Sickness and not Hell!'.

    Keep the laws for health, strength, cohesion, security, safety, speed of growth. Break them for sickness, weakness, division, insecurity, danger and reduction. Temporal Laws for Natural survival......... and they worked while they were kept. That's why Jesus wanted a full return to them for cohesion. imo.

    Revision, rebuilding.
    Says so in the Title....

    I think that eternal torture in Hell is rather more draconian, myself.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    But surely the theological message is the over-arching message – that Israel is a people chosen by God?

    Hmmm. Not sure how that is applicable here. Certainly the view prevailed that the tribulations of the people were because of their lack of faith? And the Jews of the era didn't have a view of 'hell' – sheol, the abode of the dead, was not a place of punishment.

    I agree with al that, my own view is that the nation was trying to rebuild after being scattered, and found that people were not happy to come home, having settled to their new lives in new lands. So the idea of a particular land was emphasised, and the obligations thereof.

    Well, surely there's an element of scare-mongering right there! The Jews were happily established abroad, but you could see that marriage outside the faith would weaken the faith, but in reality it did not induce sickness, weakness, etc. Is not the implication that if you wander abroad, mix with others, the God will be unhappy and punish you?

    OK. I find that a bit of a leap, frankly, as He seems to have transgressed them, and was challenged for doing so.

    Of course, laws like guard-rails, etc, are excellent.
     
  13. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I'm on a mobile, will need to answer you in full later.

    No, the over all message was clear. The people were told to follow the laws for success, to break them for failure.
    Do you need me to show you those verses ?
    No....no punishment from their God....they would just get sick, fail etc
     
  14. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Huh?
    What, like 'read and follow the highway code to pass your test and drive safely, ignore it and have accidents" = scaremongering....like that?
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    LOL, no, different thing.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    There's a summation here

    The overall message is threefold:

    Deuteronomy stresses the uniqueness of God (Yahweh), the need for centralisation of worship (the Temple at Jerusalem) and a concern for the position of the poor and disadvantaged.

    The core of Deuteronomy is the covenant that binds Yahweh and Israel by oaths of fidelity and obedience. God will give Israel blessings of the land, fertility, and prosperity so long as Israel is faithful to God's teaching; disobedience will lead to curses and punishment. The First Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The Shema Israel (6:4-5) is a repetition of that.

    "Because the Lord thy God is a jealous God in the midst of thee: lest at any time the wrath of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and take thee away from the face of the earth." (6:15).

    "But if thou forget the Lord thy God, and follow strange gods, and serve and adore them: behold now I foretell thee that thou shalt utterly perish. As the nations, which the Lord destroyed at thy entrance, so shall you also perish, if you be disobedient to the voice of the Lord your God." (8:19-20)
     
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  17. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Drop God from both the New Testament, and the Old Testament, lol
    That's a new one ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
  18. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    Moses was told to produce laws for the children of Israel.
    He and his did just that.

    Exodus {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
     
  19. badger

    badger Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that laughing out loud can throw much light upon this discussion.
    And neither the Old nor the New Testament are under focus here, but the Laws of Moses.... which I am promoting as absolutely brilliant for their time.
     
  20. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Who said that to Moses? Obviously not God/the Lord, because I personally don't buy the concept, therefore ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022

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