The Laws of Moses......... perfect for their time.

[RJM]

Ah, but I think that mankind wrote those laws

But Jews do not. These are Jewish laws, to which God/the Lord is absolutely central. A person may not believe in God/the Lord -- but does that entitle taking Jewish law and stripping it of the central purpose and intention?

 

[badger]

But Jews do not. These are Jewish laws, to which God/the Lord is absolutely central. A person may not believe in God/the Lord -- but does that entitle taking Jewish law and stripping it of the central purpose and intention?

I believe that the central purpose and intention was to produce a secure, safe, healthy, strong, successful and cohesive strength within the children if Israel.

 

[badger]

Deuteronomy {15:1} At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. {15:2} And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it;] he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD’S release. {15:3} Of a foreigner thou mayest exact [it again:] but [that] which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release; {15:4} Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance to possess it:

7 year releases from debts...15:4} Save when there shall be no poor among you;.....................

A nation's success might be best judged by the lack of poverty within it....... yes? no?

 

[badger]

The Commandments are part of the Covenant. At the time, covenants were common forms of treaty between powerful kings and their vassals. Hittite overlord, Mesopotaminan vassal principality, Egyptian Pharaoh, Levantine vassal state... some of these covenant treaty texts were recovered by archaeologists, and this kind of clause at the end was a common feature.

@Cino ....... Do you have knowledge of similar laws which predated the Laws of Moses? I've searched through IT but cannot find anything.
It would be very important info if you do know of any......

 

[badger]

@Cino ......... update. I have managed to download the entire code of Hammurabi. 22 pages.
That's homework for absolutely yonks....... I'm interested to compare those with Moses Laws.

 

[Cino]

@Cino ......... update. I have managed to download the entire code of Hammurabi. 22 pages.
That's homework for absolutely yonks....... I'm interested to compare those with Moses Laws.

Nice!

I've seen the (replica for the public exhibition) Stele with the code of Hammurabi at the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.

I'll see if I can find the Hittite treaty texts, but it's been a while, and I read about them in a boik back in the day.

 

[badger]

Nice!

I've seen the (replica for the public exhibition) Stele with the code of Hammurabi at the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.

I'll see if I can find the Hittite treaty texts, but it's been a while, and I read about them in a boik back in the day.

I copied the lot on to rtf wordpad as one document so I can search the whole piece for fast responses and read the lot at my leisure.

And I'm up for any Hittite docs as well.

 

[Cino]

If you google for "hittite treaty" or "mursilis tessub treaty", you'll get plenty of hits.

 

[Thomas]

Have you looked at the Law Code in light of a nation rebuilding itself and its identity following successive periods of exile?

In many ways it was highly nationalistic, although this nationalism was shaped by a theological imperative.

Of course Deuteronomy evolved over centuries, but certainly the idea of the Exodus and the Promised Land were pushed with a strong nationalist agenda to get a scattered people to return to Judah. In that, it was none too successful.

If I were being overtly critical I'd say it was an attempt to guilt trip compliance – the basic premise being somewhat draconian, it's understandable that sound common sense and good measures were also introduced to sweeten the pill!

 

[badger]

If you google for "hittite treaty" or "mursilis tessub treaty", you'll get plenty of hits.

I will........
The only time that I read about the Hittites was in a Wilbur Smith story with the invasion of Northern Egypt as the back-drop. Faster chariots, stronger more efficient bows, a deadly foe. And so I would like to look further in to that name.

 

[badger]

Have you looked at the Law Code in light of a nation rebuilding itself and its identity following successive periods of exile?

In many ways it was highly nationalistic, although this nationalism was shaped by a theological imperative.

Yes....for example, Deuteronomy was a second reading, mostly....... a revision of all in a rebuilding.

But not from a theological imperative, more to do with natural survival.
An easy way to demonstrate this is through the sentence, 'Sin leads to Sickness and not Hell!'.

Keep the laws for health, strength, cohesion, security, safety, speed of growth. Break them for sickness, weakness, division, insecurity, danger and reduction. Temporal Laws for Natural survival......... and they worked while they were kept. That's why Jesus wanted a full return to them for cohesion. imo.

Of course Deuteronomy evolved over centuries, but certainly the idea of the Exodus and the Promised Land were pushed with a strong nationalist agenda to get a scattered people to return to Judah. In that, it was none too successful.

Revision, rebuilding.
Says so in the Title....

If I were being overtly critical I'd say it was an attempt to guilt trip compliance – the basic premise being somewhat draconian, it's understandable that sound common sense and good measures were also introduced to sweeten the pill!

I think that eternal torture in Hell is rather more draconian, myself.

 

[Thomas]

But not from a theological imperative, more to do with natural survival.

But surely the theological message is the over-arching message – that Israel is a people chosen by God?

An easy way to demonstrate this is through the sentence, 'Sin leads to Sickness and not Hell!'

Hmmm. Not sure how that is applicable here. Certainly the view prevailed that the tribulations of the people were because of their lack of faith? And the Jews of the era didn't have a view of 'hell' – sheol, the abode of the dead, was not a place of punishment.

Keep the laws for health, strength, cohesion, security, safety, speed of growth.

I agree with al that, my own view is that the nation was trying to rebuild after being scattered, and found that people were not happy to come home, having settled to their new lives in new lands. So the idea of a particular land was emphasised, and the obligations thereof.

Break them for sickness, weakness, division, insecurity, danger and reduction.

Well, surely there's an element of scare-mongering right there! The Jews were happily established abroad, but you could see that marriage outside the faith would weaken the faith, but in reality it did not induce sickness, weakness, etc. Is not the implication that if you wander abroad, mix with others, the God will be unhappy and punish you?

That's why Jesus wanted a full return to them for cohesion. imo.

OK. I find that a bit of a leap, frankly, as He seems to have transgressed them, and was challenged for doing so.

Of course, laws like guard-rails, etc, are excellent.

 

[badger]

But surely the theological message is the over-arching message – that Israel is a people chosen by God?

I'm on a mobile, will need to answer you in full later.

No, the over all message was clear. The people were told to follow the laws for success, to break them for failure.
Do you need me to show you those verses ?

Well, surely there's an element of scare-mongering right there! The Jews were happily established abroad, but you could see that marriage outside the faith would weaken the faith, but in reality it did not induce sickness, weakness, etc. Is not the implication that if you wander abroad, mix with others, the God will be unhappy and punish you?

No....no punishment from their God....they would just get sick, fail etc

 

[badger]

.

Well, surely there's an element of scare-mongering right there!

Huh?
What, like 'read and follow the highway code to pass your test and drive safely, ignore it and have accidents" = scaremongering....like that?

 

[Thomas]

Huh?
What, like 'read and follow the highway code to pass your test and drive safely, ignore it and have accidents" = scaremongering....like that?

LOL, no, different thing.

 

[Thomas]

No, the over all message was clear.

There's a summation here

The overall message is threefold:

Deuteronomy stresses the uniqueness of God (Yahweh), the need for centralisation of worship (the Temple at Jerusalem) and a concern for the position of the poor and disadvantaged.

The core of Deuteronomy is the covenant that binds Yahweh and Israel by oaths of fidelity and obedience. God will give Israel blessings of the land, fertility, and prosperity so long as Israel is faithful to God's teaching; disobedience will lead to curses and punishment. The First Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The Shema Israel (6:4-5) is a repetition of that.

No... no punishment from their God....they would just get sick, fail etc

"Because the Lord thy God is a jealous God in the midst of thee: lest at any time the wrath of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and take thee away from the face of the earth." (6:15).

"But if thou forget the Lord thy God, and follow strange gods, and serve and adore them: behold now I foretell thee that thou shalt utterly perish. As the nations, which the Lord destroyed at thy entrance, so shall you also perish, if you be disobedient to the voice of the Lord your God." (8:19-20)

 

[RJM]

Drop God from both the New Testament, and the Old Testament, lol
That's a new one ...

 

[badger]

There's a summation here

The overall message is threefold:

Deuteronomy stresses the uniqueness of God (Yahweh), the need for centralisation of worship (the Temple at Jerusalem) and a concern for the position of the poor and disadvantaged.

The core of Deuteronomy is the covenant that binds Yahweh and Israel by oaths of fidelity and obedience. God will give Israel blessings of the land, fertility, and prosperity so long as Israel is faithful to God's teaching; disobedience will lead to curses and punishment. The First Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The Shema Israel (6:4-5) is a repetition of that.


"Because the Lord thy God is a jealous God in the midst of thee: lest at any time the wrath of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and take thee away from the face of the earth." (6:15).

"But if thou forget the Lord thy God, and follow strange gods, and serve and adore them: behold now I foretell thee that thou shalt utterly perish. As the nations, which the Lord destroyed at thy entrance, so shall you also perish, if you be disobedient to the voice of the Lord your God." (8:19-20)

Moses was told to produce laws for the children of Israel.
He and his did just that.

Exodus {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

 

[badger]

Drop God from both the New Testament, and the Old Testament, lol
That's a new one ...

I don't think that laughing out loud can throw much light upon this discussion.
And neither the Old nor the New Testament are under focus here, but the Laws of Moses.... which I am promoting as absolutely brilliant for their time.

 

[RJM]

Exodus {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

Who said that to Moses? Obviously not God/the Lord, because I personally don't buy the concept, therefore ...