Christian Answers to Muslim Questions

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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I am not denigrading the Quran account in any way. Am saying that the Quran Jesus is not necessarily the complete picture of Jesus

Maybe it is our own ideas of Jesus the Christ that is not the complete picture?

Maybe we needed the Spirit of Truth to guide us unto a fuller picture that shows how both the Biblical picture and Quran Picture of Jesus are complimentary and in complete harmony?

Therein lays a challenge for humanity. Why is it that it takes another Messenger from God to show humanity that we are One People under One God? Why is it, that people with a New Name, are given to show that all Names are One?

One does not give up Jesus the Christ to embrace Muhammad and the Quran, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. One gains a Love for all the Messengers of God, in the same Light of Christ, the first and last.

The Baha'i Feast of Asma (Names) is today 20th August 2022. If you would like to read about Names, this feast program has quotes on this very subject.

http://normantonbahai.com/Feast-of-Asma.php

Please disregard if you are not interested.

Regards Tony
 

RJM

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Maybe it is our own ideas of Jesus the Christ that is not the complete picture?
Ok. Can you talk about the words and actions of Jesus recorded in the Baha'i writings, that are missing from both the Quran and Gospel pictures? Is there new information? Do you have new words or parables, or miracles, or actions of Jesus that are so far unrecorded?

To date the Gospels seem to record by far the most extensive picture of Jesus. It is certainly far more extensive than the Quran accounts. What can you add of the life and words of Jesus the Christ? Do you have new observer accounts? What is their provenance and validity?

If not, what's new?
 
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RJM

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Or are you are suggesting that your messenger's interpretation of the life and words of the Christ as recorded in the Gospels and Quran and NT apocrypha is the only proper and valid one ...?
 
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Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Ok. Can you talk about the words and actions of Jesus recorded in the Baha'i writings, that are missing from both the Quran and Gospel pictires? Is there new information? Are there new words or parables, or miracles, or actions of Jesus that are so far unknown?

To date the Gospels seem to record by far the most extensive picture of Jesus. It is certainly far more extensive than the Quran accounts. What can you add of the life and words of Jesus the Christ? Do you have new observer accounts?

If not, what's new?

I would rather discuss how Jesus was the Christ.

Matthew 16 is our guide and from 13 we need to consider this deeply.

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

So Christ is the name that Jesus confirmed the Church was to be built upon. Jesus told the Disciples not to let anyone know he was the Christ.

So, Christ is "Annointed One". Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that is the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

It is the same Spirit that is Annointed to all God's Messengers, that is the Spirit that came upon Muhammad and gave us the Quran.

There is much to consider.

Regards Tony
 

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I would rather discuss how Jesus was and that was the Christ.

Matthew 16 is our guide and from 13 we need to consider this deeply.

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

So Christ is the name that Jesus confirmed the Church was to be built upon. Jesus told the Disciples not to let anyone know he was the Christ.

So, Christ is "Annointed One". Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that is the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega.

It is the same Spirit that is Annointed to all God's Messengers, that is the Spirit that cane upon Muhammad and gave us the Quran.

There is much to consider.

Regards Tony
Yes, but Tony that is purely your own interpretation -- or that of your messenger. There are libraries of thoughts and interpretations around the life and words of Jesus ...
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Or are you are suggesting that your messenger's interpretation of the life and words of the Christ as recorded in the Gospels and Quran and NT apocrypha is the only proper and valid one ...?

I am suggesting that we need to be reminded as to what God is showing us and in each age God sends a Messenger to remind us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

So for us, the Messengers are all we can know of God as the Messenger is the giver of that Word.

In that Spirit, we are all One.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

So when we are Born again from the flesh into that spirit, we all become one. Names are an inherent part of that Spirit as all Names eminate from that Spirit.

Wonderful topic, always happy to discuss.

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Yes, but Tony that is purely your own interpretation -- or that of your messenger. There are libraries of thoughts and interpretations around the life and words of Jesus ...

Yet, we can be One in that Spirit and divided when we are not.

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Yes, but Tony that is purely your own interpretation -- or that of your messenger. There are libraries of thoughts and interpretations around the life and words of Jesus ...

That is the choice we have in life, what is from our own selves and what is from God.

Regards Tony
 

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Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Does Baha'u'llah also take onto himself the 99 names of Allah?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam

I'm sure he does not. It would be a stretch. But as he declares it was he who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, I feel the need to ask?

Baha'ullah has said they are as One.

"1. The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness..."

Much more here.
https://bahai.works/Gleanings_from_the_Writings_of_Bahá’u’lláh/XXII

Busy building a bathroom, so catch you tomorrow morning for a while.

Regards Tony
 

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Baha'ullah has said they are as One.

"1. The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness..."

Much more here.
https://bahai.works/Gleanings_from_the_Writings_of_Bahá’u’lláh/XXII

Bust building a bathroom, so catch you tomorrow morning for a while.

Regards Tony
I understand the concept that all the messengers are progressive manifestations of the word of God, but do you really mean that Baha'u'llah takes upon himself the name of: The Creator/ Creator of the Universe/ Maker/ True Originator/ Absolute Authority -- along with the 98 other names of Allah alone ...

Not difficult to guess that Muslims might have a problem with that?
Busy building a bathroom, so catch you tomorrow morning for a while.
Ok Tony
 
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powessy

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Do all the messengers teach the same stories? Why are all these teachings left to interpretations?

I see a lot of the same thoughts in the things minds teach me but ultimately it is my interpretation of their thoughts that changes the meanings of their teachings.

We’re all of the messengers aware of the teachings of those before them?

Just curious

powessy
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Do all the messengers teach the same stories? Why are all these teachings left to interpretations?

I see a lot of the same thoughts in the things minds teach me but ultimately it is my interpretation of their thoughts that changes the meanings of their teachings.

We’re all of the messengers aware of the teachings of those before them?

Just curious

powessy

Baha'u'llah explains this in detail in the Kitab-i-iqan and many other tablets. Yes the Messengers are fully aware of all gone before and what will be, that is why even when they are uneducated, They can quote any past scriptures and foretell of the future.

The Messengers each bring a new Message, they give more stories and bring the law suited to the age the Message is destined to last.

Each of the stories have a Material outward meaning, yet there are many hidden meanings and all those meanings they could explain. They reveal the word only to the extent of the capacity of humanity in that age. There are rare people in each age that have a greater capacity, they are usually the first to accept the Messengers and become the names remembered through history. Many give their lives so the new Born faith can live, the true martyr's.

I will put a couple of quoted behind spoilers.

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Sadiq, son of Muhammad, spoken: "God verily will test them and sift them." This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: "Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Bahá’u’lláh, Ki tab-i-Ian, pp. 254-256


Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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I understand the concept that all the messengers are progressive manifestations of the word of God, but do you really mean that Baha'u'llah takes upon himself the name of: The Creator/ Creator of the Universe/ Maker/ True Originator/ Absolute Authority -- along with the 98 other names of Allah alone ...

Why a Baha'i quotes so often, is these answers have already been written. If I was to give it in my words, it waters the meaning down even further. The Word of God is where we need to find the answer to all our questions.

I can do no better an explanation that the explanation that is found in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas notes, that are given to answer that question.

160. VERILY, THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BESIDES ME # 143

The Bahá’í Writings contain many passages that elucidate the nature of the Manifestation and His relationship to God. Bahá’u’lláh underlines the unique and transcendent nature of the Godhead. He explains that “since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation” God ordains that “in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven”. This “mysterious and ethereal Being”, the Manifestation of God, has a human nature which pertains to “the world of matter” and a spiritual nature “born of the substance of God Himself”. He is also endowed with a “double station”:

The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself… The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá’u’lláh also affirms that, in the spiritual realm, there is an “essential unity” between all the Manifestations of God. They all reveal the “Beauty of God”, manifest His names and attributes, and give utterance to His Revelation. In this regard, He states:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God”, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…

While the Manifestations reveal the names and attributes of God and are the means by which humanity has access to the knowledge of God and His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi states that the Manifestations should “never … be identified with that invisible Reality, the Essence of Divinity itself”. In relation to Bahá’u’lláh, the Guardian wrote that the “human temple that has been the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation” is not to be identified with the “Reality” of God.

Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father”; to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

Bahá’u’lláh describes the station of “Divinity” which He shares with all the Manifestations of God as

…the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.

And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Regards Tony
 

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Each of the stories have a Material outward meaning, yet there are many hidden meanings and all those meanings they could explain. They reveal the word only to the extent of the capacity of humanity in that age. There are rare people in each age that have a greater capacity, they are usually the first to accept the Messengers and become the names remembered through history. Many give their lives so the new Born faith can live, the true martyr's.
I'm sorry but this just sounds like the aspirations of a wannabe Jesus. Do these statements apply through time to all the great religious or spiritual figures? I'm not getting anything more than a parochial Abrahamic influence?
Why a Baha'i quotes so often, is these answers have already been written. If I was to give it in my words, it waters the meaning down even further. The Word of God is where we need to find the answer to all our questions.

I can do no better an explanation that the explanation that is found in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas notes, that are given to answer that question.

160. VERILY, THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BESIDES ME # 143

The Bahá’í Writings contain many passages that elucidate the nature of the Manifestation and His relationship to God. Bahá’u’lláh underlines the unique and transcendent nature of the Godhead. He explains that “since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation” God ordains that “in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven”. This “mysterious and ethereal Being”, the Manifestation of God, has a human nature which pertains to “the world of matter” and a spiritual nature “born of the substance of God Himself”. He is also endowed with a “double station”:

The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself… The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá’u’lláh also affirms that, in the spiritual realm, there is an “essential unity” between all the Manifestations of God. They all reveal the “Beauty of God”, manifest His names and attributes, and give utterance to His Revelation. In this regard, He states:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God”, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…

While the Manifestations reveal the names and attributes of God and are the means by which humanity has access to the knowledge of God and His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi states that the Manifestations should “never … be identified with that invisible Reality, the Essence of Divinity itself”. In relation to Bahá’u’lláh, the Guardian wrote that the “human temple that has been the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation” is not to be identified with the “Reality” of God.

Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father”; to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

Bahá’u’lláh describes the station of “Divinity” which He shares with all the Manifestations of God as

…the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.

And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Regards Tony
But IMO Baha'i consistently avoid confronting questions by throwing up tracts
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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But IMO Baha'i consistently avoid confronting questions by throwing up tracts

We are advised to try to find wisdom in what we offer. Sometimes it is not wise to put more fuel on an already over stoked fire.

That is why the answer is behind a spoiler. You will want to read, or will not.

Regards Tony
 

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Baha'u'llah explains this in detail in the Kitab-i-iqan and many other tablets. Yes the Messengers are fully aware of all gone before and what will be, that is why even when they are uneducated, They can quote any past scriptures and foretell of the future.

The Messengers each bring a new Message, they give more stories and bring the law suited to the age the Message is destined to last.

Each of the stories have a Material outward meaning, yet there are many hidden meanings and all those meanings they could explain. They reveal the word only to the extent of the capacity of humanity in that age. There are rare people in each age that have a greater capacity, they are usually the first to accept the Messengers and become the names remembered through history. Many give their lives so the new Born faith can live, the true martyr's.

I will put a couple of quoted behind spoilers.

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Sadiq, son of Muhammad, spoken: "God verily will test them and sift them." This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: "Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Bahá’u’lláh, Ki tab-i-Ian, pp. 254-256


Regards Tony

You talk of the many as one, but you do not understand this meaning, this is why I am confused. When I close my eyes I interact with minds as old as this world itself, and them having millions of minds together to become one, some would call them angels. The brain has 9 places within it that can be taught by the different minds that can teach you here in these places.

During nap today green(nature)showed up and it showed me my garden as it asked about my green peppers and tomato’s. Blue(vitality) will teach me about oceans, lakes, rivers, and rain.

The thoughts of oneness is a constant feeing I feel amongst them but how is there oneness while there are so many minds together. An allowed mind or angel, becomes many minds together to Offer it’s minds more time to become themselves in the afterlife.


The image below may also illustrate 1 and more then 70 meanings, this mind to me represents evolution.

C4C10FBB-0337-47CC-BEE0-A5E3EE43F1BB.jpeg


Powessy
 
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Tone Bristow-Stagg

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The greatest bounty Islam has in regards to the Bible and it Authenticity is that it foretells of the Message of Muhammad via the 1260 prophecies and beleive it or not, the beast prophecies, as this is foretelling about the Islam Dynasties built upon a broken Covenant.

Both Christians and Muslims can find they can embrace each other's scriptures.

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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The thoughts of oneness is a constant feeing I feel amongst them but how is there oneness while there are so many minds together. An allowed mind or angel, becomes many minds together to Offer it’s minds more time to become themselves in the afterlife.

Maybe we see the same thing in different frames of references.

Pure white light is all the wavelengths. These wavelengths are many but one with the light.

For the colours to be seen there is refraction through a prism, the Messenger in this Matrix.

We have to remove the veil of names that is on that prism, look back through the colour we perceive and see the white light (oneness)

Is that similar to your experience?

Regards Tony
 

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The greatest bounty Islam has in regards to the Bible and it Authenticity is that it foretells of the Message of Muhammad via the 1260 prophecies and beleive it or not, the beast prophecies, as this is foretelling about the Islam Dynasties built upon a broken Covenant.

Both Christians and Muslims can find they can embrace each other's scriptures.

Regards Tony
This can probably be arrived at by performing enough manipulation and cherry-picking. But everyone is entitled to their opinion about Bible interpretations. It's gone on forever, and will continue to forever. Imo everyone likes to cherry-pick the Bible out of context to justify what they support. It's nothing new.
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