A Catholic Reply to the Commentary on Verses of John by Abdu’l-Bahá

Without broadening the discussion too far, how do you sit with Abdu'l-Baha's commentary that says:


Not according to the Hebrew Scriptures nor the New Testament.


Two things here:
1: When Scripture talks of the Spirit and a person, the two are distinct – a prophet is not the Holy Spirit personified or embodied – the two, the Spirit and the prophet, are quite distinct.
2: In saying 'conventionally said in speech and conversation' he's now talking in general and not Scriptural language, but then conflates the two.


Again, clearly not so. Throughout Scripture God speaks, angels speak ... from Genesis 1:3 on ...

I'm sorry, but this does rather speak of sophistry to me, not to explain Scripture but to explain it away ...
I will try to get to this and a few of your other replies soon. I'm gathering some resources together.
 
@Ahanu
I'm pleased that I amuse you so much.

As part of the Trinity the Holy Spirit is God, and the divine can manifest how, when, where and within or to whomever it pleases. You teach that belief in the trinity seeks to restrict the divine.

Yet you teach that modern divine wisdom for humanity is restricted in its expression to the 19th Century writings of Baha'u'llah and a few others -- that there will be no more divine wisdom provided to the entire human race for the next 800 years. You try to manipulate Christian scripture to try to justify that belief.

And you think my posts are funny, lol ;)
 
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So logic rules?

Now?

Lol
Nature ends with time and space. Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates nature. Nature is ever changing and goes to death. Spirit is eternal and transcends time and space and nature, imo
 
I am not referring to that phrase. The phrase holy spirit (qōḏeš rûaḥ) only occurs three times in the OT as far as I know:

But they rebelled
and grieved His Holy Spirit.
So He became their enemy
and fought against them.
Then He remembered the days of the past,
the days of Moses and his people.
Where is He who brought them out of the sea
with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit among the flock?
(Isa. 63.10-11)

Do not banish me from Your presence
or take Your Holy Spirit from me.
(Ps. 51.11)
You are missing so many references to Him. I'm posting links so as not to flood the thread with scripture if you do not care to read them then I reiterate that you are in need of correction.
 

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You are missing so many references to Him. I'm posting links so as not to flood the thread with scripture if you do not care to read them then I reiterate that you are in need of correction.
Came home from vacation to discover that our freezer failed while we were away. Still cleaning up the mess and the stench. However, I saw this post and felt a need to point out - without criticism because I realize your post to @Ahanu was written from a Christian perspective and the article you provided was written from a Christian perspective - that no Jew would agree with the premise of the article.
 
Came home from vacation to discover that our freezer failed while we were away. Still cleaning up the mess and the stench. However, I saw this post and felt a need to point out - without criticism because I realize your post to @Ahanu was written from a Christian perspective and the article you provided was written from a Christian perspective - that no Jew would agree with the premise of the article.
Thank you for pointing out this distinction. I think we all know by now that I'm always posting from a Christian perspective 😊.

I'm sorry about your freezer and the stench, this has happened to me before and it's a horrible experience.
 
You are missing so many references to Him. I'm posting links so as not to flood the thread with scripture if you do not care to read them then I reiterate that you are in need of correction.
Correct what? I'm not talking about other references to Him. Your author says: "The Holy Spirit is referred to more than 100 times in the Hebrew Scriptures in a number of ways: the Spirit of God (Elohim), the Spirit of the Lord (YHWH), and, simply, the Spirit."

That is not the point. I'm simply referring to a specific phrase (qōḏeš rûaḥ) - an expression - that is not abundantly found in the OT. I am already aware Christians see the Holy Spirit in other forms of expression.
 
@Ahanu
I'm pleased that I amuse you so much.

As part of the Trinity the Holy Spirit is God, and the divine can manifest how, when, where and within or to whomever it pleases. You teach that belief in the trinity seeks to restrict the divine.

Yet you teach that modern divine wisdom for humanity is restricted in its expression to the 19th Century writings of Baha'u'llah and a few others -- that there will be no more divine wisdom provided to the entire human race for the next 800 years. You try to manipulate Christian scripture to try to justify that belief.

And you think my posts are funny, lol ;)
Yes, I do. Here is my opinion.

The Holy Spirit is always "descending" from the Sun of Truth.

The questions are as follows: Do we have the receptivity to capture it? And to what degree of intensity? The universe can be likened to a cosmic mirror that reflects the speech of God. "Wheresoever you turn, there is the Face of God" (Qur'an 2.115). The speech of God is not divine dictation that we hear audibly like we see depicted in the movie The Ten Commandments.


🤣

Rather, it is a form of inspiration in the heart. Even the sunrise can be a form of revelation, reflecting the speech of God according to its capacity. For most humans in general a rock reflects the speech of God dimly. However, it is not as intense as, say, a saint. And who is that perfect mirror, the one in whom the greatest intensity of the sun's light is found? A manifestation of God. Hence Abdu'l-Baha says:

"All created things are resplendent signs of God. For instance, the rays of the sun shine upon all earthly things, yet the light that falls upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits is only in such measure as to make them visible, to ensure their growth, and to cause them to attain the object of their existence. The Perfect Man, however, is even as a clear mirror in which the Sun of Truth is revealed and manifested in the fullness of its attributes and perfections. Thus the reality of Christ was a bright and polished mirror of the greatest purity and clarity."
(Some Answered Questions)
www.bahai.org/r/114453692

In my opinion, these perfect mirrors are rare. They appear in times of great stress and crisis. Consider the timing of Christ's appearance or Muhammad's appearance. Baha'u'llah writes:

"For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions."
(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/621220243
 
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Without broadening the discussion too far, how do you sit with Abdu'l-Baha's commentary that says:


Not according to the Hebrew Scriptures nor the New Testament.


Two things here:
1: When Scripture talks of the Spirit and a person, the two are distinct – a prophet is not the Holy Spirit personified or embodied – the two, the Spirit and the prophet, are quite distinct.

I would say yes and no. It can simply be considered from different perspectives.

Consider the following verse in Mark 12.36:

"David himself says by/in/with the Holy Spirit:

The Lord declared to my Lord,
‘Sit at My right hand
until I put Your enemies under Your feet.'"

Translations of the preposition can vary. Note the DSS speaks of people having their own holy spirit.
 
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2: In saying 'conventionally said in speech and conversation' he's now talking in general and not Scriptural language, but then conflates the two.

Again, clearly not so. Throughout Scripture God speaks, angels speak ... from Genesis 1:3 on ...

I'm sorry, but this does rather speak of sophistry to me, not to explain Scripture but to explain it away ...
I will get to this part soon.
 
Yes, I do. Here is my opinion.

The Holy Spirit is always "descending" from the Sun of Truth.

The questions are as follows: Do we have the receptivity to capture it? And to what degree of intensity? The universe can be likened to a cosmic mirror that reflects the speech of God. "Wheresoever you turn, there is the Face of God" (Qur'an 2.115). The speech of God is not divine dictation that we hear audibly like we see depicted in the movie The Ten Commandments.


🤣

Rather, it is a form of inspiration in the heart. Even the sunrise can be a form of revelation, reflecting the speech of God according to its capacity. For most humans in general a rock reflects the speech of God dimly. However, it is not as intense as, say, a saint. And who is that perfect mirror, the one in whom the greatest intensity of the sun's light is found? A manifestation of God. Hence Abdu'l-Baha says:



In my opinion, these perfect mirrors are rare. They appear in times of great stress and crisis. Consider the timing of Christ's appearance or Muhammad's appearance. Baha'u'llah writes:
I believe that 'God' reaches to every individual soul that turns toward Him, each in it's own unique way. I believe there is divine guidance in all 'true' scriptures, but that none of them can claim unique authority. God guides every individual soul, through whatever is available to that soul.

This has applied to every race and every age of humanity, regardless of religious structures and scriptures -- and will continue to.

It's fine and good for Baha'u'llah or other 'seers' and gurus and poets and prophets to contribute what they have to offer, and for those who relate to become disciples -- but why does Baha'u'llah have to claim authority over truth for the whole human race for the next 800 years?

It's a false claim from a false prophet -- they all like to claim to be the new messiah and the only truth -- but the divine power simply does not work that way, imo

Human nature will never change. There will always be materialists, and there will always be the 'few' who take that one first step by allowing the 'holy' Spirit to take over in their lives, and find that angels respond by taking nine steps towards themselves.

The true divine teachers (as perfected in Jesus) are concerned with the soul of the individual, not with material conditions, although those too tend to improve when a soul allows God's angels to enter their lives. However God will put me under a bus, if that is what my soul development requires, imo

All the talk of world peace and unity is just material rhetoric, imo. It is the idealistic spin-off of Christ's second commandment to love my neighbour as myself. But the first and greatest commandment is always to love God first and above all other material concerns; it is the focus of all true divine teaching, and from this the second should flow naturally.

But this material world of nature, bounded by time and space, will always be subject to change and death.

All just my own thoughts
 
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Came home from vacation to discover that our freezer failed while we were away. Still cleaning up the mess and the stench.
Oh wow! What a nice homecoming surprise ...
 
If many early Christians were here on this online forum with us, I would like to ask them the same thing since many believed in a thousand-year reign of Christ. Check out Papias:
Yes, but saying 'Jesus also experienced rejection' etc, doesn't make someone the same as Jesus. There are thousands who spring-up and call themselves the Christ and the new messiah, that's the whole point, Ahanu.

It's a very old discussion.

Anyway, you guys -- back to your detailed scriptural thread ;)
 
...

Some in order to make the attempt separate themcellves in monasteries, or ashrams, madrasses, to study all the time....reducing temptation...OK for some, sorta cheating in my view.
Several decades ago, when I was peaking in my search for Truth, I became a renunciate(monk) in the religion I was in. I had already given up all 'wordly' things, or rather had no more desires for those things. I left everything(worldly) joyfully and didn't feel I was running away.
I stayed in that order for about 7 years.
It had it's value and I am certain that many monks are not running away.

I like the new word themcellves.

Cheers

:)
 
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Several decades ago, when I was peaking in my search for Truth, I became a renunciate(monk) in the religion I was in. I had already given up all 'wordly' things, or rather had no more desires for those things. I left everything(worldly) joyfully and didn't feel I was running away.
I stayed in that order for about 7 years.
It had it's value and I am certain that many monks are not running away.

I like the new word themcellves.

Cheers

:)
Thomas The Christ
Tony The Christ
You are The Christ
I am The Christ

In my understanding we all have access to our highercellves, our perfect nature. It is we (and not any devil critter) that choose to live in this world.

Very few can live in this world but not of it.

Some in order to make the attempt separate themcellves in monasteries, or ashrams, madrasses, to study all the time....reducing temptation...OK for some, sorta cheating in my view.
No-one has to believe the gospel accounts, but the gospel Christ was sinless and virgin born, a healer of the body and the soul who forgave sin and lived amongst the broken and the lost. He gave his life on the cross to end blood sacrifice and rent the temple veil between God and man, and rose from the tomb, after the 'harrowing of hell' and ascended to the Father.

None of the apostles nor John the Baptist declared 'I am Christ' or compared themselves, imo
 
If many early Christians were here on this online forum with us, I would like to ask them the same thing since many believed in a thousand-year reign of Christ. Check out Papias:
It's a fair point, but a poor article, unfortunately (and yes, it would no doubt be staggering to hear 1st century voices).

So critical was Papias to the church’s historical memory that it is amazing that he is not recalled as a pivotal Church Father,
He is counted among the Fathers, but not pivotal because basically his contribution is historical and not doctrinal – the pivotal fathers, or Doctors of the Church, left significant theological and doctrinal works and that marks them apart.

However, he had the misfortune to hold chiliastic ideas ... He may well have been reflecting views widely held in the mainstream church of his time.
He may, or may not. He was not alone in that.

As the years progressed, though, he was retroactively labeled a heretic, and by the fourth century Eusebius dismisses him as a bumbler of small intelligence.
I can't find any reference to Papias being accused of heresy? Eusebius clearly had a very low opinion of him, it seems.
 
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