Nietzsche

Nietzsche also foresees the possibility of the last man's appearance after the death of God:
"The last man's first appearance is in 'Zarathustra's Prologue'. According to Nietzsche, the last man is the goal that modern society and Western civilization have apparently set for themselves. After having unsuccessfully attempted to get the populace to accept the Übermensch as the goal of society, Zarathustra confronts them with a goal so disgusting that he assumes that it will revolt them – a culture which seeks only passive comfort and routine, avoiding everything that could potentially bring risk, pain, or disappointment.[1] Zarathustra fails in this attempt, and instead of repelling and manipulating the populace into pursuing the goal of the Übermensch, the populace take Zarathustra literally and choose the "disgusting" goal of becoming the last men. This decision leaves Zarathustra disheartened and disappointed.
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Nietzsche warned that the society of the last man could be too barren and decadent to support the growth of healthy human life or great individuals. The last man is only possible by mankind having bred an apathetic person or society who loses the ability to dream, to strive, and who become unwilling to take risks, instead simply earning their living and keeping warm. The society of the last man is antithetical to Nietzsche's theoretical will to power, the main driving force and ambition behind human nature, according to Nietzsche, as well as all other life in the universe.
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The last man, Nietzsche predicted, would be one response to the problem of nihilism. But the full implications of the death of God had yet to unfold: "The event itself is far too great, too distant, too remote from the multitude's capacity for comprehension even for the tidings of it to be thought of as having arrived as yet."[2]
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Ahanu said:
To demonstrate the difference between Nietzsche and Christianity for all times, I can start from many points, but I think I'll note Nietzsche adopts an epiphenomenal view of consciousness - just like our atheist friend @Aupmanyav.
A moral value is "slave morality," "anti-natural," or Christian morality when it teaches you to "despise the very first instincts of life," "to experience the presupposition of life, sexuality, as something unclean," and search "for the evil principle in what is most profoundly necessary for growth, in severe self-love."
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That is an incorrect representation of @Aupmanyav's views. He thinks 'dharma' is the same and equally necessary for all who follow Hinduism. He believes that one who does not try to follow 'dharma' is not a Hindu (he accepts that people may falter, it is not an easy road). He has generally been a 'dharma' following person.
Kindly do not wrongly foist Nietzsche's morality on @Aupmanyav.
However, @Aupmanyav does consider conscience and consciousness to be an emergent property of brain. He does not believe in hocus-pokus about conscience or consciousness. :D
 
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Aupmanyav said:
That is an incorrect representation of @Aupmanyav's views. He thinks 'dharma' is the same and equally necessary for all who follow Hinduism. He believes that one who does not try to follow 'dharma' is not a Hindu (he accepts that people may falter, it is not an easy road). He has generally been a 'dharma' following person.
Kindly do not wrongly foist Nietzsche's morality on @Aupmanyav.
However, @Aupmanyav does consider conscience and consciousness to be an emergent property of brain. He does not believe in hocus-pokus about conscience or consciousness. :D
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I am only stating you have an epiphenomal view of consciousness. Lol . . .

Unless your views have changed since our last convo. I am not saying your view of morality is the same here.
 
Aupmanyav said:
However, @Aupmanyav does consider conscience and consciousness to be an emergent property of brain. He does not believe in hocus-pokus about conscience or consciousness. :D
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Doesn't matter one way or the other..
It cannot be shown that the "contents" of brains i.e. the mind, cannot be preserved somehow,
and is of no cosmic significance.

I find myself alive, aware, and have no reason to presume that it cannot happen again.
I have no reason to presume that material things are all that exist .. materialism is a belief,
which cannot be proved, just as most beliefs cannot be proved.
 
Ahanu said:
Nietzsche asserts "that a thought comes when ‘it’ wishes, and not when ‘I’ wish."
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I can confirm this. Have you ever tried to meditate, or to "stop thoughts"?
 
muhammad_isa said:
I find myself alive, aware, and have no reason to presume that it cannot happen again.
I have no reason to presume that material things are all that exist .. materialism is a belief,
which cannot be proved, just as most beliefs cannot be proved.
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You miss evidence for that (other than that in Qur'an, Bible or Garuda Purana). .. If they are things, then they are material. :)
wil said:
More to the point you value being alive and aware and WISH to presume it WILL happen again, tis why our churches, mosques, synagogues and temples are full of septagenarians on up!
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That is natural. Most young people do not have time for that. I woke up to it in my forties/fifties.
 
wil said:
More to the point you value being alive and aware and WISH to presume it WILL happen again..
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No .. this is an assertion that all believers like the idea of living forever.
Many people's lives are so miserable that they would do anything just to blot their lives out..
..but if they believe in a life after death, in an Orthodox fashion, they are "concerned" about
the possibility of suffering in the next life.

I am aware that some people ignore verses about hell in the Bible, playing them down, and
claiming that "God is love" .. a bit difficult to do that with the Qur'an wouldn't you say??
It is intentional, of course. No wiggle room .. a clear warning.
Call it fire .. call it intense suffering .. call it torment .. it is as real as paradise.

On the other hand, God's Mercy is Greater than that of a mother to her child.
Those with sure knowledge and faith have hope in that Mercy, and get comfort when a loved one passes away,
asking God to forgive them .. that is, if they believed in God, naturally.
 
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wil said:
No, it was a direct response to your statement that YOU believed you were going to "be alive and aware " again and the explanation as to why folks start going back to church as they age, because I ask them, lol
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OK, but you said "you value being alive and aware and WISH to presume it WILL happen again"
I'm sure that saints are very satisfied with the prospect of being in paradise for eternity, but the problem is that we are not all saints, and cannot be sure of anything .. we do however, have some hope for the future, yes. :)

The main reason why I believe I will find myself alive and aware again, is not because "I WISH it"..
It is because I understand from my study of religion, that souls are immortal, and belong to God.

That can work both ways. How do I know what state I am going to die in?
I might be a disbeliever .. who can say? 😣
 
Cino said:
I can confirm this. Have you ever tried to meditate, or to "stop thoughts"?
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I have never tried to stop my thoughts while meditating. Have you? I think meditation involves observing our thoughts instead. It would be impossible to stop my thoughts. I can choose to direct my thoughts wherever I desire. According to an epiphenomal view of consciousness, my feeling of choosing this or that thought is an illusion.
 
The more one tries to stop them, the stronger they will come. We must let them pass. No use trying to swim against the current.
 
Ahanu said:
I have never tried to stop my thoughts while meditating. Have you? I think meditation involves observing our thoughts instead. It would be impossible to stop my thoughts. I can choose to direct my thoughts wherever I desire. According to an epiphenomal view of consciousness, my feeling of choosing this or that thought is an illusion.
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Yes, I've tried to stop thoughts. Doesn't every meditator try at some point? 🤔

Stopping thought is an extreme example of trying to control thought. Doing the experiment will teach a meditator so much more about themselves than they could ever learn from books or other people.

(this thread got buried, and I'm in a hurry, sorry if my reply is off topic)
 
Aupmanyav said:
That is not what is done in meditation and I am sure you know that. You just let the thoughts past by.
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Yes.

But if you're like me, at some point you tried to "think nothing".

And, while it is not "stopping thought", the meditation of letting thoughs pass by will reveal things about "not a thought".
 
I can't recall the book, it were decades ago, the trick they instilled in me is to visualize being on a bridge looking out at the river owing towards me and under my feet and under the bridge and out to the sea down river behind me.

To watch any thought you have as it floats down a river toward your contemplation and instead allowing it to continue down the river under the bridge under your feet and outta sight outta mind.
 
Cino said:
But if you're like me, at some point you tried to "think nothing".
And, while it is not "stopping thought", the meditation of letting thoughs pass by will reveal things about "not a thought".
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Tried in the initial stages and quickly left it. My way was to chant something, ever slowing, giving gaps, increasing gaps, finally silence.
"No thought" does not give you any thought; but that is when one can deliberate on a question unperturbed by monkey thoughts.
 
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Cino said:
Yes, I've tried to stop thoughts. Doesn't every meditator try at some point? 🤔

Stopping thought is an extreme example of trying to control thought. Doing the experiment will teach a meditator so much more about themselves than they could ever learn from books or other people.

(this thread got buried, and I'm in a hurry, sorry if my reply is off topic)
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This is my first time ever hearing about stopping thoughts.
 
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