Try the Trinity.

OupaPiet

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As minds say it, there is no one alive that can ever figure this out, there is no one alive that can ever know anything about anything here, there is no one alive that can teach you anything about anything here. To understand these words is to understand that all the knowledge and information you posses means absolutely nothing at all.

In the dream worlds and within minds you can find many minds together to figure things out. The more minds needed to figure something out the further you get from the things your trying to understand. Minds will say I am many more minds then you are to figure things out, I am so much more time then you are to become something here, I am so many more thoughts then you are to figure things out. Many nothings together still equal nothing I will say to them. All the religions and all man’s books and teachings together still equal nothing I will also tell you.

I will ask you as I have asked many others, how can you figure anything out when you have nothing teaching you anything here? If you ever want to become something again you will need to figure things out knowing nothing about anything here. If Jesus is the one true god then why are there so many interpretations of who he is, why so many circles.

As far as the true god, he is himself only. Everything is inside of something to become something here. If you were able to become everything here in existence you would only then be able to find thoughts about him and still you could not figure him out. The rule of minds goes that you can figure out or become anything that is inside yourself to figure it out.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You do not need to respond I just wanted to share my thoughts on this topic.

Powessy
I think such deep thinking needs a response. You dont have to read it if you dont want to.

But from my point of view, you are correct.
We can not fathom anything about the spiritual, for we are not in that environmant.
However, we can reference to what was recorded in the scriptures we have.

It works this way.
500 years from now, after an Apocalypse where only a few people remained that never learned any religion, we stumble upon a library, a small one, less than 15 books.
One Bible, a Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Diache, the Hadith, Upanishad, a Gita, the Egyptian Book of the dead, and a couple more.
And we get the God Delusion, and the Principia of Newton. Das Kapital and Mein Kamph might also be there.

Now we can safely say, we dont know anything about anything on science and religion.

One guy takes the old publication by some obscure scientific organisation, which we dont know who they were (NASA) and he studies this scientific descriptions on the origins of the Solar system.
One takes the Bible, the other the Gita and another the Quran and so on.

Ye are only about 10 000 people, 3 generations after everyone else was wiped from the earth, and we are curious to know what these ancient buildings and rusted machinery is we see around us.

We fortunately know how to read and write, and we decided to form a panel of readers that will discuss what we learned.

We are intelligent enough to learn to use telescopes, after we dusted it off, and saw that the ancient book of NASA gives a very good explanation on what the universe consists of, and their explanation on how it formed is very logical.

But we dont know how it came into existence.

On one of our meetings where we told each other what we learned, Someone tells us that he started to read a book, and that book speaks about a Creator that made it all.
He says, even the very beginning of the book gives an explanation.
Another guy says, he also found another book, that has some explanations similar than the first.
A few more people tells the same story.
One guy says he wondered why the book he read, vehemently opposed this stories about a Creator and says everything came out of nothing, but gravity.
So, how will me know which book or philosophy is correct?

This is exactly where we are standing today without an apocalypse.

We have our thoughts about nothing, yet we refuse to read what answers is supplied in books that claim to have the answer.
Well, I can only criticize an atheist after I read the God delusion, or the Quran for that matter.
Any Atheist criticizing the Bible, without reading it first, is guilty of deception.
However, I can not understand how anyone can criticize Einstein, if they never read his theory of special relativity.

Anyone criticizing any philosophy, without ever investigating it for himself, is a mere fool.

That's why I read it all. to see if there are answers to my questions.
Not to sit in a bubble thinking I will get the answer if I think a lot about nothing.
 

OupaPiet

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What I have never understood is WHY do I have to refer to God, Jesus, and the holy spirit as a trinity? Nowhere in the Bible is this referred to as a trinity. Jesus says they are One. But I have had people tell me that I'm going to Hell if I don't believe in the Trinity. I can't find this anywhere in the Bible. So when Jesus opens up HIS books and starts judging, he's seriously going to send people to Hell simply because they didn't acknowledge Him and the Father as being part of a Trinity? I just don't get it.
You do not have to refer to God as anything else than your Father. The word Trinity is not in the Bible, yet the description was given by Christians to describe God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Anyone telling you that God is not the Father, Spirit and Word, is dumping the whole OT. Here is a good example. Read it and tell me that God is not the Father, the Spirit and Jesus.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.


Anyone telling you will go to hell because you dont believe in the trinity, surely does not know that God judge no man by his words, but by what is in his mind. Jesus clearly said, that anyone who believes in Him, will have ever lasting life, he that denies Him, condemned himself.
God does not send people to hell, your sinful nature (spirit) will remove you from God, or if you believe in Jesus as your savior who died for you to receive a covering of redemption over your sinful nature, you are saved.

I myself will not be saved if I listen to some Christians, because I am not in their church, or received the correct baptism, or for what ever reason.
However, I am sure that Jesus died as the first human, to change the human body to something that is immortal, as an example of what I can become, if only I accept him as my saviour. Therefore I undressed my Spirit of the sinful body, and will dress in the body hHe prepared for me.

Simply believe in this, that Jesus came to give you everlasting life, if you believe in Him.

The only reason why the Trinity is important, is that we know we are created in God's immage of an immortal body, a Spirit and the Word, which is nothing more than our mind.
Adam lost his immortal body, and thereby did we inherit that mortality, or as the Bible calls it, our sinful nature.
It took God to send his Word, to be born exactly as we humans does, and this Word grew up in a Mortal body like us promising that He will die, but will exchange the mortal for the immortal eternity.

From my point of view, I love the idea that God would become like me to reveal Himself.
That He decided to die, just as I would, hopefully not such a horrible death, to be the first to be resurrected into everlasting life as Adam had before he sinned.

Now, why do I believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, The Trinity, the Bible?

because God says, test everything. And I tested the description of the origins of the Universe with the Bible, Quran, Gita, Upanishad etc.
And I found the Bible the only correct description of how God did it.

Therefore, I can safely rely on what Jesus said.
 
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OupaPiet

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Again mind and brain are not the same thing. I also find that minds teach using analogies. I have many images they use to teach me with, some are even memories of times before this world.

The mind consists of all the things you have ever become and all the things you will need to figure yourself out, when not becoming anything here.

It is not the mind disengaged it is the mind becoming you to help you figure things out. When we are on the precipice or badly done to figure something out the mind will do anything to figure you out. I will go on to make this statement also only to explain this. First there are minds in the veil that will do anything to keep us from becoming ourselves again. The cost of your mind becoming you and these bad minds figuring you out, is your sanity. I figured my mind out not being badly done but this allowed minds inside my mind to teach me things. Others are not so lucky, they will suffer these voices and they will get ripped apart, hurting themselves or others. I will also say that your sin our thoughts will bring that kind of time to taunt you. I will also go on to say if anyone reading this suffers voices that taunt you, you need to forgive yourself and them to find peace again, easier said then done for anyone undergoing these torments.

Thank you for your time and thoughts.

Powessy
I always understood that the Brain and Mind are 2 different 'things'.
I just never realized how. due to the fact I was always always told by Atheists that the Mind does not exist, but everything is a chemical electrical impulse controlled by physical cells in the brain.

And they would check mate me with a claim that if someone had brain damage, their memory and functions will be influenced by this damage, and not a secondary entity such as a Mind.

Well, one day I sat and watched TEDx and a lady doctor, Mary T Newport, had a very interesting presentation on Alzheimer's.

She explained how her husband, an accountant, was diagnosed with Alzheimer disease, and how he deteriorated untill he could not work, drive, and eventually did not recognize her.
By accident, she stumbled on LCT oil (Long Chain Tri Glicerate) or simply refined coconut oil.
A year later he was driving, and working again.

My mind started to work overtime on this discovery.
Alzheimer's disease effects the brain cells' covering, such as insulation plastic coating will do on electric cables, resulting in short circuits rendering the Brain useless. It is like remaining with a heap of copper wire, connected to trillions of transistors, all just short circuiting all the way to no functionality.
It will be like comparing billions of cables wrapped into a ball, and the insulation was dissolved in acid, leaving the bare wire with sparks and damage to the "programmed" circuit. I played with Transistors and understands a little bit on how electrical currents can be manipulate into logical circuits.
I also know that damaging the insulation in these circuits will destroy any logical memory. it will be lost forever.

Well, the brain works the same.
Electrical connections, cells remembering memories because the electrical currents is never switched off.
But id you short circuit these cells, you get Brain Damage!
Only because these cells are gone and the electrical current was removed.

Alzheimer's does the same, however, the cell does not die, it simply shorts out. Therefore it will not protect any memories because the logical circuits were wiped clean like a formatted flash drive.

I was flabbergasted when I learned that this doctor treated her husband and he gained his functions, and his memories back to the levels before he got ill.

This means that the Brain is physical, but the mind also exists!

I believe the description that Humans have a Body, a Mind and a Spirit.
And even though some might say this evidence of a Mind is scantly, it is still amazing that the human can gain his memory back after such terrible damage to the brain.
 

muhammad_isa

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Muhammad was also under the impression that the Gospel was a Book given to Jesus!
Errr .. no.
Is the Qur'an "a book given to Muhammad"?
No .. it was inspired revelation.

I mean, this is real evidence that Muhamad was totally ignorant to the facts of reality.
The facts of reality being, that the Creator of the universe decided to masquerade as one of His creation?. ;)
..but Jesus worshiped "His Father" in heaven and taught us to do so.

The trinity is illogical .. there cannot be One God, while both Jesus and the Father in heaven is God.
 

muhammad_isa

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From my point of view, I love the idea that God would become like me to reveal Himself.
That He decided to die, just as I would, hopefully not such a horrible death, to be the first to be resurrected into everlasting life as Adam had before he sinned.
The fact that you "love an idea" does not make it coherent or true.
Jesus did not decide to die, any more than John the Baptist did.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
- Matthew 27 -

God cannot die .. He is Eternal.
Our spirit does not die .. only our bodies perish.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
- Matthew 10 -
 
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Thomas

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Nice one. Did Dionysius write more on the topic of this non-experience?
Dionysius can be considered the father of the Christian apophatic tradition, and it permeates all his works.

The Mystical Theology is all about that, in five chapters, the last two being: That the pre-eminent Cause of every object of sensible perception is none of the objects of sensible perception (ch4) nor of intelligible perception (ch 5).
 

OupaPiet

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Errr .. no.
Is the Qur'an "a book given to Muhammad"?
No .. it was inspired revelation.


The facts of reality being, that the Creator of the universe decided to masquerade as one of His creation?. ;)
..but Jesus worshiped "His Father" in heaven and taught us to do so.

The trinity is illogical .. there cannot be One God, while both Jesus and the Father in heaven is God.
OK, if we ignore everything the Bible say about the Father, Word and Holy Spirit, you might have a point.

But the carnal fact is that you are not the one that have any right to dictate to what God can and can not be.
In such a case, you are creating your own god, and that is pure idolatory.
 

OupaPiet

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The fact that you "love an idea" does not make it coherent or true.
Jesus did not decide to die, any more than John the Baptist did.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
- Matthew 27 -

God cannot die .. He is Eternal.
Our spirit does not die .. only our bodies perish.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
- Matthew 10 -
Thank you for the agreement that God can not die.
So, you agree that the Word / Logos / Mind of God is immortal.
Then you should agree that the concept of the Trinity makes sense that the Human Body where the Word "Tabernacled" dwelled in here on earth in the human body, could die!
But not the Mind of God!
Hallelujah, you are getting there.
Furthermore, Jesus did say, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.
It does not mean he prayed to God, and realised he was just a man, and he made a mistake that he would not die.

No, In the times of Jesus, and before, the Tanakh was not divided into verses, and the Psalms was not given names such as we have today in the Bible.
If you referred to the scriptures, you would mention the verses itself, and the first verses of Psalms 22 is what Jesus quoted, to show a prophecy about himself!
Even as his body died, he demonstrated who he was!

Read why Jesus said these words.
Why Have You Forsaken Me?
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
... shortened for your convenience
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


Is this not in total contrast with what you thought Jesus said?

And dont think anyone killed Jesus, He gave his life from His own will. Here is Jesus' own words

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
 

OupaPiet

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Errr .. no.
Is the Qur'an "a book given to Muhammad"?
No .. it was inspired revelation.
Now why dont you know the religion of Islam.
In Paradise with Allah is the Master slab where the Quran is chiseled out.
And did Allah not say that He revealed this Quran to Muhammad as an answer to everything?
Does Islam and the Quran not say that the Quran was not created?
If you say Allah created the Quran by revealing it to Muhammad, perhaps you dont know Islam, and you need to ask a Christian if you are in doubt.

Q88:94 But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; (Christian and Jew) certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
 

muhammad_isa

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Does Islam and the Quran not say that the Quran was not created?
If you say Allah created the Quran by revealing it to Muhammad, perhaps you dont know Islam, and you need to ask a Christian if you are in doubt.
I think you might be referring to Divine destiny..
That is not a straightforward subject, so beware. :)

Sunnis enumerate Qadar as one aspect of their creed (Arabic: aqidah). They believe that the divine destiny is when God wrote down in the Preserved Tablet (al-Lawhu 'l-Mahfuz) all that has happened and will happen, which will come to pass as written.
Predestination_in_Islam - Wikipedia

21 Nay this is a Glorious Qur'an
22 (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!

- Qur'an Al Buruj -

In my understanding, it doesn't mean that God, the Most High, literally wrote down everything before
it happened .. it means that He is aware of everything that will happen, from the beginning.
The "preserved tablet" is like what we call history, except it includes what we perceive as the future as well.

It is complex, and many people have misunderstood this topic over the ages, and still continue to do so.
Our free-will is not affected by this "tablet" .. it is not that God has mapped out everything, and we are puppets unable to think for ourselves.
..that is not to say that God has no control over His creation .. He is closer to us than our jugular vein.
 

muhammad_isa

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Read why Jesus said these words.
Why Have You Forsaken Me?
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Scripture is for people to recite, and not for God..

And dont think anyone killed Jesus, He gave his life from His own will. Here is Jesus' own words
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Mmm..
and you quoted previously from "John"..

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made.


..rather, in the beginning was God [Genesis]

It seems that trinitarian belief can be summed up to be the Gospel of John.
I don't know why the other 3 Gospels were included in the canon .. they seem unnecessary. ;)
 

OupaPiet

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Scripture is for people to recite, and not for God..



Mmm..
and you quoted previously from "John"..

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made.


..rather, in the beginning was God [Genesis]

It seems that trinitarian belief can be summed up to be the Gospel of John.
I don't know why the other 3 Gospels were included in the canon .. they seem unnecessary. ;)
And John knew Jesus.
Dont forget that.

Anyhow, coming back to the Quran as a revelation in stages, and it did not exist before Muhammad.
7: 106. And We have divided the Quran that you might recite it to the people at intervals. We send down descending.

It is clear that here it says that Allah divided the Quran and sent the parts in stages down to Muhammad.
Clearly pre existing before it was revealed to Muhammad.
And
6:155. And this is a Book (Quran) We have sent it down blessed, so follow it and fear (Allah) so that you may receive mercy.
5: 15. O People of the Book! Our Messenger surely came to you, making much clear to you of what you used to conceal and overlooking much of the Scripture. Surely a light and a clear Book came to you from Allah.

85:21 What is revealed to you is certainly a glorious Quran
85:22 that exists in a well-guarded tablet.

here we have it all.
The Quran is on a well guarded tablet in Heaven, which Allah divided up into sections, and revealed it to Muhammad in consecutive stages.
There is not one Commentator on the Quran that will say the Quran was created.
Greetings.

Keep on asking the Christians if you dont understand something.
 
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muhammad_isa

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It is clear that here it says that Allah divided the Quran and sent the parts in stages down to Muhammad.
Clearly pre existing before it was revealed to Muhammad.
Everything pre-existed, in a spiritual sense..
Our souls pre-existed .. our destinies pre-existed .. and of course, the Qur'an pre-existed.

..when I say that the Qur'an was "Divinely inspired", I mean that an angel dictated it..
..when God says "He gave a book to Jesus", it doesn't mean in a literal sense.
..ever heard of idioms?
 

wil

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a figment of your imagination
.when I say that the Qur'an was "Divinely inspired", I mean that an angel dictated it..
..when God says "He gave a book to Jesus", it doesn't mean in a literal sense.
..ever heard of idioms?
Who decides what is an idiom and what is literal?

Turning water into wine? The ten plagues? Feeding five thousand? 72 virgins? Heaven itself?

Then she pointed to him [Jesus]. They said, "How shall we speak to one who is yet a child in the cradle?"

He [Jesus] said, "Truly I am a servant of God. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live, and [has made me] dutiful toward my mother. And He has not made me domineering, wretched. Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised alive!"


I believe if the Bible said it was raining cats and dogs there would be preachers screaming it as fact from the pulpit like they do the stories of the ark.
 

muhammad_isa

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Who decides what is an idiom and what is literal?
The scholars of classical Arabic, of course .. it is their language. 😁
English speakers depend on a translation, which doesn't always take idioms into account.

I believe if the Bible said it was raining cats and dogs there would be preachers screaming it as fact from the pulpit like they do the stories of the ark.
It has got worse since the Reformation, in that respect.
 

OupaPiet

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Everything pre-existed, in a spiritual sense..
Our souls pre-existed .. our destinies pre-existed .. and of course, the Qur'an pre-existed.

..when I say that the Qur'an was "Divinely inspired", I mean that an angel dictated it..
..when God says "He gave a book to Jesus", it doesn't mean in a literal sense.
..ever heard of idioms?
No, our souls did not pre exist.
Man was descended from Adam, and their children .
Where does the Quran or Bible say that man existed before Adam?
 

OupaPiet

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Who decides what is an idiom and what is literal?

Turning water into wine? The ten plagues? Feeding five thousand? 72 virgins? Heaven itself?

Then she pointed to him [Jesus]. They said, "How shall we speak to one who is yet a child in the cradle?"

He [Jesus] said, "Truly I am a servant of God. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live, and [has made me] dutiful toward my mother. And He has not made me domineering, wretched. Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised alive!"


I believe if the Bible said it was raining cats and dogs there would be preachers screaming it as fact from the pulpit like they do the stories of the ark.
Well, for one Noah did exist and there was a global flood.
 

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@OupaPiet

Jesus was a devout and learned Jew, who taught in the synagogues .. not God.

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

- Luke 4 -

It makes no sense that the Jews in his locality all thought he was God.
He wouldn't have been allowed to preach in synagogues for so long teaching that. :)
No .. Jesus taught them about their religion, emphasising the "Greatest commandment of all".

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

- Matthew 7 -
 
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