Try the Trinity.

[Cino]

I bet you very few people knows about this, and I will obviously be told that I am now spreading hatred.
But what Muhammad and Islam did for 1400 years will remain a fact that can not be wiped from the books of history.

@OupaPiet, read our code of conduct.

Code of Conduct

Interfaith forum Code of Conduct Our group seeks to fulfil a mission of interfaith dialogue and exploration of others' beliefs while being a place to discuss the intricacies of our own belief in a safe format. Conduct 1. We aim to uphold a good standard of conduct in the forums. Please...

www.interfaith.org

Remember that this is an interfaith dialogue forum.

 

[OupaPiet]

Indeed..
The Shema, that Jesus confirmed, states "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."
Mark 12:29–30

Deuteronomy 6:4 SHMO YSRAL YHWH ALEINU YHWH ACHD

Hear Israel!
YHWH God's of us YHWH unity!

Thank you for your quote.
Here we have evidence of the Trinity.
YHWH our God (Plural) is a Unity.

Greetings.

 

[OupaPiet]

Lol, you are now sounding like the last white house Resident.

Where is it you get your history? Who is feeding you this stuff?

Perhaps you shoutl obtain Paul Fregosi's "Jihad in the West" and get unbiased Historical facts.

 

[OupaPiet]

@OupaPiet, read our code of conduct.

Code of Conduct

Interfaith forum Code of Conduct Our group seeks to fulfil a mission of interfaith dialogue and exploration of others' beliefs while being a place to discuss the intricacies of our own belief in a safe format. Conduct 1. We aim to uphold a good standard of conduct in the forums. Please...

www.interfaith.org

Remember that this is an interfaith dialogue forum.

Here we have an open weapon to stop a participant from fiving a fact.

lets test the validity of enforcing this rule with splitting hairs.
What If I were to mention that Muhammad was a false prophet and the Quran is not the word of god, but a man made book made up of fables secondhandedly conveyes by Muhammad?

Will I now be considered as someone who should be silenced for making a statement such as this?
Even if I give evidence to the facts?

In such regard, it is much more honorable to tell me straight in my face in front of everyone that I am not welcome to participate on a public forum where facts might hurt the feelings of some other members of a religion in question.

Rather make a decision to inform me that I am banned from this forum, due to my Islamic quotes from the Quran and the Hadith, than trying to paint my posts as hatred.

Lets not waist each other's time, and make the decision now that no one will post any negative facts against Islam, rather than playing games.

For I promise everyone.
I will answer any criticism about the Trinity, the Bible and Christianity.
I dont care how insulting such criticism might be.

However, I will never keep silent about Islam to Islamic scholars who hides the imorral fqcts of Muhammad and Allah.

The choice is yours, and if I am silenced now, I will obviously have no more to say, let it be on your own conscience.
Greetings
.

 

[wil]

However, I will never keep silent about Islam to Islamic scholars who hides the imorral fqcts of Muhammad and Allah.

The choice is yours, and if I am silenced now, I will obviously have no more to say, let it be on your own conscience.
Greetings

Looks like you have made your own decision, we discuss here, don't appreciate kids who just kick sand

 

[Ahanu]

Jesus is called the Son of God, because God's Mind became flesh.

Not sure why it is important to believe "God's Mind" literally became "flesh" . . . unless it is to compete with the belief the emperor of Rome is god? I cannot make sense of it in the modern world, and, yes, I did read your explanation of the Trinity.

And, I will expect a God that loves me to reveal himself to us, and He did it in an incredible manner, by becoming our brother in the flesh.

The only way for the Higher to reveal Himself to the lower is to literally become flesh?

Consider this analogy: I don't have to enter into a virtual world to interact with its characters. I can run code instead while remaining entirely outside of the virtual system. The Programmer would be synonymous with the Intellect/the Word/the Son in this example.

I then realized, this means that God's Spirit could exit his “Being” and enter creation without any consequences to God's existence itself.

The idea of "entering" makes it appear as if we are talking about transitioning from one physical location to another.

I can understand why language like "entering" made a lot of sense long ago, because people had their own ideas about what goes on beyond our atmosphere that are quite different from our ideas today.

I see no need for the Trinity, and I have yet to read any explanation for why I need to accept it.

 

[Cino]

Deuteronomy 6:4 SHMO YSRAL YHWH ALEINU YHWH ACHD

Hear Israel!
YHWH God's of us YHWH unity!

Thank you for your quote.
Here we have evidence of the Trinity.
YHWH our God (Plural) is a Unity.

Greetings.

Hebrew has its quirks, just like English does. Just different quirks.

Plural forms for singular meanings are such a quirk. The word for "face" looks like a plural, too. And yet, a Hebrew speaker would not be literally saying you have several faces around your head.

"Water", too, has this plural form in Hebrew. Or "life" - but that in itself doesn't mean that Reincarnation is a central belief in Judaism, for example.

In German and French, the polite address of a person is a plural form. But by formally addressing you with the equivalent of "you all" I would not be implying that there are many of you (nor that I thought you were schizophrenic). It just means that language is not just about specific isolated aspects of grammar.

 

[Cino]

Here we have an open weapon to stop a participant from fiving a fact.

No, just making sure you know and understand the rules of the house.

You are welcome to state any beliefs and opinions you hold. A good way to do this is by saying, "It is my belief that ...", or, "In my opinion..." or "To my understanding, ...". And by all means, give us the details and reasoning you have for your beliefs and opinions, as long as you clearly mark them as such.

Give it a try, it really works even if it is dead simple.

 

[RabbiO]

Deuteronomy 6:4 SHMO YSRAL YHWH ALEINU YHWH ACHD

Hear Israel!
YHWH God's of us YHWH unity!

Thank you for your quote.
Here we have evidence of the Trinity.
YHWH our God (Plural) is a Unity.

So now we know that none of your 1200 books teach Hebrew.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not sure why it is important to believe "God's Mind" literally became "flesh" . . . unless it is to compete with the belief the emperor of Rome is god?

I think that if a person does not believe in "the word becoming flesh", it implies that the prologue in the Gospel of John is in error. In turn, that casts doubt on the accuracy of the NT, or the infallibility of those who chose the canon.

There are many places in the Bible where it is implied that Jesus is not God..
One such example would be..

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
-- Matthew 24:36 --

Why did Jesus "pretend" that he wasn't God, and not omniscient?

Christian apologists will give explanations for all these verses, that show Jesus is not God,
with something like the following..

"If we are perplexed at the mystery of this confession in One in whom we recognise the presence of “the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 1:19; Colossians 2:9), we may find that which may help us at least to wait patiently for the full understanding of the mystery in St. Paul’s teaching, that the eternal Word in becoming flesh, “emptied Himself” (see Note on Philippians 2:7) of the infinity which belongs to the divine attributes, and took upon Him the limitations necessarily incidental to man’s nature, even when untainted by evil and in fullest fellowship, through the Eternal Spirit, with the Father.”

..so Jesus is God, but God "emptied Himself" to become Jesus..

 

[Thomas]

The authorship of the Gospel of John, the Fourth Gospel, is widely contested.

In Catholic doctrine, none of the gospel scribes are definitively named – although the tradition of M,M,L&J is accepted, it's not dogma.

But more recent scholarship is growing in support for both the theology and historicity of John's Gospel – even if not a first-hand disciple, he had access to very early oral traditions.

I understand the argument is necessary from the Muslim's need to refute John, especially with regard to incarnation and Trinity, but really it's no longer viable to simply write John off as corrupted or what have you.

And while authorship is one thing, one should not fall into the error of assuming that doubts about the authorship means doubt about the content.

+++

Post WWII scholarship is growing in favour of John’s literary independence, that is he is not dependent upon the Synoptics.

There are however, signs of complex layers of interaction, notably between John and Mark, and John and Luke, but these put the formation of John's gospel in the same time-frame as the Synoptics. So the very late date of John is no longer a given.

Indeed, there is strong evidence to suggest John existed in some form before Luke, in that Luke drew of uniquely Johannine materials.

Reassessment of Judaism in the Second Temple period – dialogue with Jewish scholars and light shed by the Qumran documents, has finally put to bed the old assumption of Hellenic or Gnostic influence in John.

Modern scholarship is more accepting of John’s theological shaping of the gospel. In part this has come about because of post-modernism’s acknowledgment that all writing is ideological; certainly this is accepted for all the gospels. Thus John’s frankly theological agenda does not inherently invalidate historical reliability.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Reassessment of Judaism in the Second Temple period – dialogue with Jewish scholars and light shed by the Qumran documents, has finally put to bed the old assumption of Hellenic or Gnostic influence in John..

Would you like to expand on that?
..some refs. for example..

PS You know how I'm fond of wiki

 

[Thomas]

Would you like to expand on that? ..some refs. for example..
PS You know how I'm fond of wiki

Well it's not really this thread, so I might start another, with regard to John.

The content above is taken from an essay offering an overview of Johannine scholars on the topic. I should have referenced, my error.

The essay is "Current Approaches to the Priority of John" by Prof. Mark A. Matson

 

[powessy]

I never bothered to find out exactly how the Trinity "God" was, shall I say...constructed...
To the Christian it is not a problem to say God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
To them it is one God.

Then I was confronted by Muslim, and realized, to my shock, that Christians have a hard time to explain the Trinity.

Well, I previously sumerized the Bible and read the Quran a few times, and I decided to see if there is an easy understandable way to explain the Trinity, and to also find out if the Trinity is false, or really a divine god.

Well, I did my learning and have to test my knowledge with religions that do not believe in the Trinity, to validate my understanding.
This is my main reason why I wanted to join this forum.
To test the idea of a Triune God.

Whats the use if I believe in something, and there might be facts I dont know about that will destroy these "Facts".

If anyone wants to ask questions or needs some clarification, I will be happy to have a serious but friendly debate.

Hello oupapiet

I have asked questions about the trinity many times over and over again trying to make sense of it. I am not a religious person, and until a few years ago a non-believer. I hear voices 24/7 and walk both sides of, something here and nothing here.

The trinity is not god, and has nothing to do with god, this I know. God is himself only, the one and only and nothing else.

The trinity refers to himself he is (me, himself and yourself) together. To explain this “me” is everything inside yourself, I am every me inside of me becoming me here. All these mes form yourself which is himself, this just means you are everything inside yourself to become yourself.

As for the so called god in the Bible, he was a himself that cannot become something again, or Alfa male his world. Me was not himself, me was a mind that could become anything inside of himself to become yourself. This means that instead of me becoming only cells of a body he could become worlds inside of himself or galaxies to become yourself.

So the biblical god was himself “son”, me “father”, yourself “holly ghost”.

God is himself only, he is not ourselves this is why he is the one and only, one mind one thing. And something nothing else can figure out.

Powessy

 

[OupaPiet]

Looks like you have made your own decision, we discuss here, don't appreciate kids who just kick sand

good.

 

[OupaPiet]

Not sure why it is important to believe "God's Mind" literally became "flesh" . . . unless it is to compete with the belief the emperor of Rome is god? I cannot make sense of it in the modern world, and, yes, I did read your explanation of the Trinity.



The only way for the Higher to reveal Himself to the lower is to literally become flesh?

Consider this analogy: I don't have to enter into a virtual world to interact with its characters. I can run code instead while remaining entirely outside of the virtual system. The Programmer would be synonymous with the Intellect/the Word/the Son in this example.



The idea of "entering" makes it appear as if we are talking about transitioning from one physical location to another.

I can understand why language like "entering" made a lot of sense long ago, because people had their own ideas about what goes on beyond our atmosphere that are quite different from our ideas today.

I see no need for the Trinity, and I have yet to read any explanation for why I need to accept it.

The concept of God of the Judean-Christian religion is all about God revealing Himself to Human beings.
Speaking to Adam, showing him how He created animals, speaking to Henoch, walking with him, speaking to Noah, visiting Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, revealing Himself to Moses, walking and talking with Moses as a friend, leading Israel out of Egypt in person in an appearance of Light and smoke, living amongst Israel for 40 years as the Glory of God in a Tabernacle, and later for 100 years in the Temple, and in person to many prophets, then in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

Yet, so many people today ask, "Why does God not show Himself?"

He did, and there was many witnesses to this fact.
Thousands saw Him doing miracles in Israel and Judea. Thousands saw Him die,
Thousands saw Him alive afterwards.
120 received the Holy Ghost, and 3000 Jews became believers in Jesus as God.
Daily the numbers grew, and with just one lame man receiving a miracle by Peter, made 5000 Jews become Christians.
and so on.

You see, REVELATION OF GOD is essential to knowing that there is a GOD!

Many Christians believe God exists, because they trust the witnesses who lived with Him and saw it all.

Now, I refuse to believe in a god that never revealed himself to us humans.
Such a god dont want to know us. to such a god we are nothing.
as well as, if I dont know he exists, why should I pretend that there is a god anyhow?

I also refuse to believe in a god where someone tells me that god supposedly exists.
A person that can not show me any miracle or sign, and tells me he is a prophet of such and such a god, is an impostor.

I also refuse to believe in any person that pretends that he somehow is divine, and I simply have to believe it on face value.

No, I will believe in a God that revealed Himself to us, and I admire the one that decided to become one of us.

 

[OupaPiet]

Hebrew has its quirks, just like English does. Just different quirks.

Plural forms for singular meanings are such a quirk. The word for "face" looks like a plural, too. And yet, a Hebrew speaker would not be literally saying you have several faces around your head.

"Water", too, has this plural form in Hebrew. Or "life" - but that in itself doesn't mean that Reincarnation is a central belief in Judaism, for example.

In German and French, the polite address of a person is a plural form. But by formally addressing you with the equivalent of "you all" I would not be implying that there are many of you (nor that I thought you were schizophrenic). It just means that language is not just about specific isolated aspects of grammar.

OK, then you also missed out that Eloheinu has a singular form!
In the OT EL (singular)is used quite a number of times to denote GOD, and elohim is also used as a plural to describe the "gods" of the idolators.

Gesenius came up with this argument, but it was Zevi Nasi Hirsch Prinz (aka Rev. Christian William Henry Pauli.) who in the early 1800's destroyed Gesenius' claims of Hebrew use of plural in the Shemach.
in his booklet, how can 3 be one, he explains a lot of Gesenius' false claims.
By the way, Pauli spoke to many Jews, and it is estimated that he converted perhaps 10 thousand Jews to Christianity when he showed them the Trinity in the OT.

4 May 1877 Death of Pauli, Trinitarian Kabbalist #otdimjh

4 May 1877 “The Great Mystery, or How can Three be One?” Author’s Death #otdimjh Zevi Nasi Hirsch Prinz (aka Rev. Christian William Henry Pauli.) was the author of this most popular and much reprin…

jewinthepew.org

Therefore, an orthodox Jew who found out that the Shema says, Hear Israel, Yahweh your Gods, is Yhwh one, and explains the Trinity from the OT, surely must know a lot more than Jewish scholars that hates Jesus!

 

[OupaPiet]

So now we know that none of your 1200 books teach Hebrew.

4 May 1877 Death of Pauli, Trinitarian Kabbalist #otdimjh

4 May 1877 “The Great Mystery, or How can Three be One?” Author’s Death #otdimjh Zevi Nasi Hirsch Prinz (aka Rev. Christian William Henry Pauli.) was the author of this most popular and much reprin…

jewinthepew.org

I am blessed beyond blessings.
Today we have the Old Testament in any language we need to have to read it.
We have Jews who converted to Christianity, that do not have any problem with the Trinity, for they understand that the Holy Spirit, and the Logos of YHWH, are attributes of YHWH, not some different gods as the Jewish and Muslim scholars want us to believe.

We have interlinear software, with the facilities to explain worsd in gramatical use etc.
Luckily I do not have to listen to any scholar hoping he speaks the truth about the scriptures.

No, I can search online, and get copies of the oldest manuscripts, with very nice software to translate for me.

I live how the WWW is destroying the religious scholars' thrones they sat on for thousands of years.

That constructions is toppling over every time someone searches prophet Google on something they were fed by so called religious scholars.

Since the Internet developed, the need for a priest, preacher, Imaam, evangelists etc, dissipated.

In 2016 it was established that due to internet, more than 16 000 Muslims left Islam, Europeans started to move from Atheism to believing in God, The Jews for Jesus movements grew exponentially, and Jews embraced Christianity. Countries are taking action against Muslim invasions, such as Poland, Italy and Germany. The population is in uproar against their governments on immigration from Islamic countries, and many are now even prohibiting the building of new mosques.

Christian Churches that do not preach with the new founded knowledge against the denial of Christ, are also drained of members.

No, I dont need anyone to teach me that speaks Hebrew, just as I dont need any Muslim to teach me what the Arabic says.
I am now translating the Quran from Arabic to English, with the use of Internet and software.

Is this not great?

 

[OupaPiet]

Hello oupapiet

I have asked questions about the trinity many times over and over again trying to make sense of it. I am not a religious person, and until a few years ago a non-believer. I hear voices 24/7 and walk both sides of, something here and nothing here.

The trinity is not god, and has nothing to do with god, this I know. God is himself only, the one and only and nothing else.

The trinity refers to himself he is (me, himself and yourself) together. To explain this “me” is everything inside yourself, I am every me inside of me becoming me here. All these mes form yourself which is himself, this just means you are everything inside yourself to become yourself.

As for the so called god in the Bible, he was a himself that cannot become something again, or Alfa male his world. Me was not himself, me was a mind that could become anything inside of himself to become yourself. This means that instead of me becoming only cells of a body he could become worlds inside of himself or galaxies to become yourself.

So the biblical god was himself “son”, me “father”, yourself “holly ghost”.

God is himself only, he is not ourselves this is why he is the one and only, one mind one thing. And something nothing else can figure out.

Powessy

If we reason on what God can be and what He should be, we are making one hell of an error.
It is not up to us to tell God what He is, or how He should be revealed.

However,
It is also just as silly to think that one can make philosophies on God, from our reference point.

This is the steps.
There is a God.
He created Man.
Man does not know Him.
He reveals Himself to Man.

OK, so how did God reveal Himself to Man?

The Jews has the Tanakh, and the Christians also believes in it, but they go further, and they have the history of Jesus Christ in the 4 gospels and acts of the Apostles. Obviously they collected the writings of these apostles for future generations.

From the Christian perspective, they will utilize the Tanakh and the New Testament to formulate the attributes of God.
Which clearly demonstrates the Trinity from Genesis 1 to Revelations 21.

The Christians are Christians because of their belief in the Bible and the divinity of Christ and the Holy Ghost.
Therefore they have the right to use their scripture as their historical evidence of revelation of God.

Anyone who does not believe in the Bible, has no right to tell them they are wrong.
Furthermore, Anyone who think they can use the Book of Mormon, or the Quran for that matter to deny the Trinity, are using external claims that has nothing to do with the Bible, in an attempt to try to argue against the Trinity.

Therefore, if you are a Muslim, and dont believe in the Trinitybecause something is in the Quran that denies it, then we can safely conclude that we need to compare apples with apples, and check up on the validity of our books.

I checked the TANAKH, and I accept it as the historical writings of witnesses to God's existence.
I studied the New Testament and found it to be true and hones written by witnesses that knew Jesus Christ.
Therefore the Triune God.

I studied the Quran, and found it one huge mumbo jumbo, incoherrent, fables, with zero scientific support, actually, one huge blunder compared with what science knows and what the Allah in the Quran knows.

I studied the Book of Mormon, and it was in error with history as well as with science.

I studied Jehovah Witnesses' teachings, and saw that they have a problem to get to heaven because of their belief that Man has no eternal spirit living within him. I saw their 144K will be some other creation in heaven, because no flesh and blood can enter heaven, and having no spirit, they are unable to enter heaven.

I studied the creation stories of the Bible, and science, and learned that Science plagiarized the origins of the solar system from Genesis 1.

Therefore, if we want to discuss the description of God, we will first have to establish the source of where it comes from.
We cant just say, I think it should work this way, or it cant be because some other book which some blasphemer wrote does not agree.
Greetings.

 

[Cino]

Therefore, an orthodox Jew who found out that the Shema says, Hear Israel, Yahweh your Gods, is Yhwh one, and explains the Trinity from the OT, surely must know a lot more than Jewish scholars that hates Jesus!

A scholar's work should be guided by the subject matter they study, and by other scholar's work, not by personal beliefs.

You seem to muddle the two a lot, scholarly work and personal beliefs.

The Jews for Jesus movements grew exponentially, and Jews embraced Christianity.

You mention this a lot. Why do you care so much whether other people believe the same as you?