Woke Christianity

[Faithfulservant]

Interesting. I have often heard people use the phrase "the bible is clear".
The bible is many things. It is rarely "clear" It requires significant interpretation and understanding of context. Even seemingly simple remarks in the Bible require some understanding of context to avoid getting things wrong.

I addressed this in another comment. I take the bible literally and in context and the Holy Spirit is quite adept at interpreting it for me. I do not believe God provided His will for us that we have to play guessing games with. If you believe that it's not clear for you might I suggest prayer?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm very sorry that happened to you or your child. Abuse can come from many sources, either within the home or out.
I hope you had the support you needed, and I hope the guilty parties had to face immediate consequences.

The Lord says that vengeance is His and I truly believe that we won't get away with anything we do that harms another person. In thought or deed. The bible also says that we are appointed once to die and then the judgement. I have forgiven my abusers and I've been comforted. Thank you for your concern.

 

[Faithfulservant]

No I think wil had a point and you invalidated that point and wil's response 8-<
The term "woke" is often used to denote some kind of extremism, but like will said it is often used to invalidate compassion.
Sometimes people who snarl against "wokeness" make me want to say -- well, if you're not 'woke' then WAKE UP
I don't know if I count as "woke" because I hate buzzwords and nobody can define them.
What does "woke" mean, exactly? My understanding it has become a sarcastic way to belittle people who care about social justice.
So no wonder wil is irked.
But the term is used so loosely who knows these days?
And as you acknowledged, you even utilized the term to denounce unrelated things that irritated you... because you were annoyed with someone...
Wait are you easily irked to? ;-) Just kidding

I have your number so to speak. I've known Wil for a long time and I consider him a friend on this forum despite the fact that we do not agree on many things. I was giving him a raz and he knows that. You would not know this as you are new? I've admitted my faults in the creation of this thread as I'm sure you've read since you are questioning so many of my comments.

 

[RJM]

What does "woke" mean, exactly? My understanding it has become a sarcastic way to belittle people who care about social justice.

Is that all?

But the term is used so loosely who knows these days?

Yet you are arguing its meaning?

What does it mean to you?

Compassion is compassion.
Empathy is empathy.

These have their own word definitions and shades of meaning.

 

[RJM]

Whatever the original meaning, 'woke' has morphed in the 2020's to primarily mean gender politics and cancel culture, imo

 

[Thomas]

We are going to have to disagree!

OK. But you must see that the idea that men are rational creatures motivated by intellect, and women as irrational creatures motivated by emotion, is a cultural stereotype – and used to keep women in their place.

Women are no more emotional than men. Men are no less capable of empathy than women.

God made women opposites to men for a reason and that is why they were created for man as a helper.

Well I don't think 'opposite', rather 'complementary. Genesis 1:26-27 is 'clear' that man and woman are created equal, in the image of God.

And if we look at the text:
Genesis 2:18: "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

God then creates the beasts of the field, the fowl of the air and presumably the fish of the sea – every living creature – which the man named, but none was sufficient a 'help meet' for him (2:20), so God created woman – a companion and very much, I would say, his equal.

I think women's liberation took it a step too far.

Well, it's still very much 'a mans' world' ... so there might well be excesses, but still patriarchy rules, and excessively so.

How women are perceived is very much a slightly condescending patriarchal thing, and saying women are emotional creatures is, I'm afraid, one of the means by which patriarchy keeps women 'in their place'.

 

[Faithfulservant]

OK. But you must see that the idea that men are rational creatures motivated by intellect, and women as irrational creatures motivated by emotion, is a cultural stereotype – and used to keep women in their place.

Women are no more emotional than men. Men are no less capable of empathy than women.


Well I don't think 'opposite', rather 'complementary. Genesis 1:26-27 is 'clear' that man and woman are created equal, in the image of God.

And if we look at the text:
Genesis 2:18: "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

God then creates the beasts of the field, the fowl of the air and presumably the fish of the sea – every living creature – which the man named, but none was sufficient a 'help meet' for him (2:20), so God created woman – a companion and very much, I would say, his equal.


Well, it's still very much 'a mans' world' ... so there might well be excesses, but still patriarchy rules, and excessively so.

How women are perceived is very much a slightly condescending patriarchal thing, and saying women are emotional creatures is, I'm afraid, one of the means by which patriarchy keeps women 'in their place'.

I never said women are irrational.. I can look at my own marriage and see that I am more rational than my husband mostly. I don't believe that being led by emotions is a negative thing. I also don't believe that being led by logic is a negative thing. I think men and women balance each other out or maybe complete each other. There's a book called Men are from Mars women from Venus.. something like that . I remember reading it and thinking damnnn that's so true!

It's strange to me how claiming the woman as soft and emotional triggers people.. like how we are less than because of it. That's a strength imo.

I also don't have issues that the world is patriarchal. God did create Adam first. The descendents of Abraham were counted not Sarah's. It was the line of David that Jesus came from through Mary even though God is His Father. Everything is so out of balance.. the divine order is out of whack.

Jesus is the head of the body.. the husband is the head of the wife. What's missing is mutual respect and honoring each other and their roles in the marriage as equals. The Song of Solomon is a beautiful depiction of how Jesus loves the church and how a man should love his bride.

I have to say im honored to get the Thomas treatment!

 

[TheLightWithin]

According to Jesus John 15:18-19
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

I could add more but that's pretty clear. We are taught that there are three enemies.. the world Satan and our flesh. I'm not interested in what the world has to say as I watch enough TV to grasp it.

If you haven't realized it..I take the bible literally.

Yeah I get that sense... I'm more likely to take it critically. That is, if it doesn't line up with reality or if reality is more complicated... then it has to be interepreted.

It says "IF the world "hates" you... but does that line up with reality? Who is "the world" ? Every single person?
It might stand in the way of understanding some things. If people get irritated by your efforts to evangelize them, or if they object to the doctrine of eternal agony in hellfire or something -- rather than understanding that from their perspective, an evangelist (yourself or someone else) can just fall back on "Well, the good book said the world would hate me" and then refuse to engage critically in WHY people are upset with you, on their terms. You keep everything on the bible's terms, or at least, the English translation that you have in front of you, and your understanding of it (not just you but anyone attempting to evangelize) and then wonder why people are upset, or worse yet, believe that you know.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Is that all?

Yet you are arguing its meaning?

What does it mean to you?

Compassion is compassion.
Empathy is empathy.

These have their own word definitions and shades of meaning.

I think what I am saying or trying to say is that when people use the word "woke" they are often being sarcastic about social justice.
And sometimes they are angry about what they consider "the transgender agenda" or a bunch of other things.
It is generally used negatively. And as stated by someone in this thread, it is used to dismiss empathetic people and their points. Deriding social just is what gets them there.
But as we saw at the beginning of this thread, the OP used the term woke to refer to a bunch of things not usually associated with woke.
Most of the time people don't seem to be able to define woke.
The term woke doesn't mean much of anything to me, and I would be unlikely to use the term myself, but I recognize its frequent use and misuse, usually roughly translating to derision of social justice.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Yeah I get that sense... I'm more likely to take it critically. That is, if it doesn't line up with reality or if reality is more complicated... then it has to be interepreted.

It says "IF the world "hates" you... but does that line up with reality? Who is "the world" ? Every single person?
It might stand in the way of understanding some things. If people get irritated by your efforts to evangelize them, or if they object to the doctrine of eternal agony in hellfire or something -- rather than understanding that from their perspective, an evangelist (yourself or someone else) can just fall back on "Well, the good book said the world would hate me" and then refuse to engage critically in WHY people are upset with you, on their terms. You keep everything on the bible's terms, or at least, the English translation that you have in front of you, and your understanding of it (not just you but anyone attempting to evangelize) and then wonder why people are upset, or worse yet, believe that you know.

The Word of God isn't reality?

I never refuse to engage with any excuse. The bible tells us how to evangelize and the gist is to share the good news and be prepared to provide a word for the hope that lies within... It doesn't say I have to read books on why people might hate Christ.. Jesus says why they hate Him and that's the enemy's influence. If someone is earnestly seeking then truth will come.. the Holy Spirit convicts us of truth and the bible says that if they continue to harden their hearts God will eventually allow them their delusions. My job is to sow seeds and God reaps the harvest.

I don't wonder why people are upset with me.. I know why they are upset with me. It doesn't hurt my feelings I just pray for them.

Does it frustrate you that critical dialogue with me is answered with scripture?

Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[wil]

I

John 15:18-19
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Well, I suppose that defines the size of "the world" year 30 there were about 300 million on the planet. There were about a million within the area the Bible indicates Jesus roamed...so if 3x that many hated him by then..."the world" refers to one percent of the earth's population.

Of course there are Hindus that believe Jesus spent time in India (or was that post reaurection) like when Mormons believe he was preaching to indigenous americans?

If you haven't realized it..I take the bible literally.

Maybe you could give us the literal translation of the quote you used if I am wrong?

How did the world know enough of Jesus to hate him?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I
Well, I suppose that defines the size of "the world" year 30 there were about 300 million on the planet. There were about a million within the area the Bible indicates Jesus roamed...so if 3x that many hated him by then..."the world" refers to one percent of the earth's population.

Of course there are Hindus that believe Jesus spent time in India (or was that post reaurection) like when Mormons believe he was preaching to indigenous americans?


Maybe you could give us the literal translation of the quote you used if I am wrong?

How did the world know enough of Jesus to hate him?

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.

it doesn't matter how the world changes. We are in the days of Noah and Lot as you can see on the news every day. The word "world" is not a better version by any means than it was in year 30.

I don't know if Jesus was in India or America.. if He wanted me to know that as fact He would have inspired it to be part of the 66 books we call the bible.

John 15 is pretty self explanatory. Not sure the issue with all people's being lumped in with the world? unless the possibility that you identify with the world? I have the answer to that dilemma!

I do not identify with the world.. this place is not my home and I'm an alien here. That's how I feel. I'm like a little kid at camp and I'm homesick.

The World’s Hatred
John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

The Coming Rejection
26 “But when the [c]Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

I also feel like John chapter 1 speaks of the enmity between Jesus and the world. If you are interested here's the link... I won't post the whole thing.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New King James Version

The Eternal Word - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[TheLightWithin]

The Word of God isn't reality?

I never refuse to engage with any excuse. The bible tells us how to evangelize and the gist is to share the good news and be prepared to provide a word for the hope that lies within... It doesn't say I have to read books on why people might hate Christ.. Jesus says why they hate Him and that's the enemy's influence. If someone is earnestly seeking then truth will come.. the Holy Spirit convicts us of truth and the bible says that if they continue to harden their hearts God will eventually allow them their delusions. My job is to sow seeds and God reaps the harvest.

I don't wonder why people are upset with me.. I know why they are upset with me. It doesn't hurt my feelings I just pray for them.

Does it frustrate you that critical dialogue with me is answered with scripture?

Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I don't know if I would say it is frustrating as such. It just supplies limited information.
But you don't know why people feel the way they do unless you get their word for it really.
No, Scripture does not always provide a full picture of reality.

 

[TheLightWithin]

6

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.

it doesn't matter how the world changes. We are in the days of Noah and Lot as you can see on the news every day. The word "world" is not a better version by any means than it was in year 30.

I don't know if Jesus was in India or America.. if He wanted me to know that as fact He would have inspired it to be part of the 66 books we call the bible.

John 15 is pretty self explanatory. Not sure the issue with all people's being lumped in with the world? unless the possibility that you identify with the world? I have the answer to that dilemma!

I do not identify with the world.. this place is not my home and I'm an alien here. That's how I feel. I'm like a little kid at camp and I'm homesick.

The World’s Hatred
John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

The Coming Rejection
26 “But when the [c]Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

I also feel like John chapter 1 speaks of the enmity between Jesus and the world. If you are interested here's the link... I won't post the whole thing.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New King James Version

The Eternal Word - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the...

www.biblegateway.com

66 books called the Bible -- A great many books were left out of the original compilation
The Catholics have fewer than the various Orthodox churches, and Protestants threw out more. (3 links)

Luther's Antilegomena

www.bible-researcher.com

Depending on How You Count, There Could be Up to 263 Books in the Bible!

There are so many books in the Bible -- Jews, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Ethiopians include different books we could all use.

earlychristiantexts.com

Did Martin Luther ever remove books from the New Testament canon?

Is it true that Luther removed James, Jude, and Revelation from the New Testament? If this is true then what were his reasons for doing so?

christianity.stackexchange.com

 

[Faithfulservant]

No, Scripture does not always provide a full picture of reality.

Why not? Everything we need to know lies within it. How we should view God, how we should treat each other,, how we should handle money,, how we should live. What messes everything up is the secular world. When Christ returns and reigns on this earth it will be as it should be. For me.. I want to know that now rather than later and the corruption that's in this world will be done away with. I'm exhausted watching the hate and violence on the news. I'm exhausted with not trusting the government that rules with lies and deception. I'm exhausted with the innocent lives destroyed. The Bible brings me peace because of the promise that this is just temporary and eternity is just around the corner. Every day is closer than the day before. Just watch the news and the Bible is coming to life right before our eyes.

 

[Faithfulservant]

6

66 books called the Bible -- A great many books were left out of the original compilation
The Catholics have fewer than the various Orthodox churches, and Protestants threw out more. (3 links)

Luther's Antilegomena

www.bible-researcher.com

Depending on How You Count, There Could be Up to 263 Books in the Bible!

There are so many books in the Bible -- Jews, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Ethiopians include different books we could all use.

earlychristiantexts.com

Did Martin Luther ever remove books from the New Testament canon?

Is it true that Luther removed James, Jude, and Revelation from the New Testament? If this is true then what were his reasons for doing so?

christianity.stackexchange.com

I'm curious.. have you read all the books that were removed? I haven't and I do not feel the loss. I could exist soley on the new testament. I read the old testament because I want to see and know Jesus in them. The NT is life and bread and water. It's Jesus as my husband my brother my friend my Savior and my God made flesh crucified resurrected and preparing to return for me. The texts removed from the OT do not take away from the NT and what it means to my salvation.

You are not the first person to try to cause doubt in me about the inerrancy of scripture by either bringing up the text removal or false translations or man's corruption. What I can tell you is that I know God is real and I know He is all powerful and I know and trust that I have what I need to survive this life with what HE provides... including the 66 books of the bible in whatever translation I read. My faith is infallible and unshakeable in this.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I'm curious.. have you read all the books that were removed? I haven't and I do not feel the loss. I could exist soley on the new testament. I read the old testament because I want to see and know Jesus in them. The NT is life and bread and water. It's Jesus as my husband my brother my friend my Savior and my God made flesh crucified resurrected and preparing to return for me. The texts removed from the OT do not take away from the NT and what it means to my salvation.

You are not the first person to try to cause doubt in me about the inerrancy of scripture by either bringing up the text removal or false translations or man's corruption. What I can tell you is that I know God is real and I know He is all powerful and I know and trust that I have what I need to survive this life with what HE provides... including the 66 books of the bible in whatever translation I read. My faith is infallible and unshakeable in this.

Do you believe that people's questions are motivated by trying to cause doubt?
Sounds like people are aggressive in your experience.
Don't get me wrong I've run into my share of belligerent people too, mostly when I was quite young.
Anyway I'm working on finding copies. Maybe I have a copy of the Peshitta bible somewhere (Assyrian Church of the East) but the most complete is the Eritrean and Ethiopic Orthodox canon.
But I'm so behind on reading. Big ambitions uneven follow through. I plod along, I get some things read eventually.
The amount of things there are to read could take up a lifetime.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I am suspicious I admit. why would you respond as you did to my mention of the 66 books of the bible? I thought I detected some passive aggression in one or two of your posts so my defenses are up.

I really don't read much extra biblical things these days. I used to be an avid reader and inhaled many a fantasy or science fiction book...oh and historical romances * le sigh* but psalms says He will give us the desires of our heart... literally He gave me the desire of my heart.. to know Him more personally and this happened naturally as I grew in my walk with Him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The NT is life and bread and water. It's Jesus as my husband my brother my friend my Savior and my God made flesh crucified resurrected and preparing to return for me..

That's a bit of a mouthful..
Why would Jesus be returning?
..to be crucified and resurrected again?

 

[Faithfulservant]

That's a bit of a mouthful..
Why would Jesus be returning?
..to be crucified and resurrected again?

Umm no He was already crucified and resurrected and His return is imminent. Not sure where you get the again part if it.