Woke Christianity

I think I posted that thinking I was replying to someone else... I think it was the OP I thought I was replying to? Based on something she said I thought maybe she hadn't read those materials yet. Also I'm new to the forum and don't know the history of various discussions. (Believe me I wish I had been on the forum for years. I've been aware of this site for I don't know how long, I don't know how I didn't know about the forum. Unless I did sign up years ago and then lost track of it somehow.)


I'm not sure I have a pet theory about Jesus exactly. I need to go back to the source, with the knowledge I have now, to re-develop my impressions. I'm planning to re-read the Gospels and then the rest of the New Testament. It's been a long time since I've read that through. What I do know is that I was raised not religious at all. The adults in my family all had different beliefs, but the one thing everyone seemed to agree on was the notion that mainstream Christianity was dead wrong on a lot of things if not nearly everything. My grandfather was the most theologically minded, and when I was little he was into the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrong) They were very decidedly non-Trinitarian. I think I read somewhere that their beliefs were "binarian" though I wouldn't have been aware of those terms when I was little. When I went to a Methodist bible study at age 12, and they tried to describe "the Trinity" which didn't make sense to me, I asked about it at home and I was told to ask my grandfather about it as he "understood such things" of course he went on a rant about the "pagan abomination which isn't in the Bible and isn't the Truth" or something like that. Pretty classic grandpa rant. I don't recall what his explanation of Jesus actually was, but some form of what I now know is subordinationism I'm sure. I'm drawn to nonTrinitarian belief systems and am slowly making more sense out of how they are all different, from the "Jesus is only human" but "A priest on the order of Melchizedek" variety which I believe is held by Christdadelphians, to the idea that Jesus is a divine being but not God himself (Jehovah's Witnesses thinking he is the Archangel Michael, if I'm not mistaken) I need to do some more review of the source to refine any theory I may have.
Replying to my own remark here -- also other non Trinitarian beliefs I am aware of include Oneness Pentecostals, who believe God is One and NOT a trinity, but that Jesus IS That one God.
This title.still irks me. I find "woke" is a term used to demonize compassionate, empathetic, caring people who have concern for their fellow man. Seems to me, Jesus was woke, Christianity is woke, and you gotta be woke before you can be born again.

But that is just me, and the as many have said the words and actions of many Christians ain't very Christlike.
Yes. But that didn't stop Paul challenging him.

Gets tricky here. The apostles and most Catholics, yes, because they were Jewish and saw no contradiction. Many gentiles also did, a practice that's been noted before the church. But many gentiles equally did not, and asked why they should, and should they follow all the Jewish laws and customs, for example ... so a dialogue is ongoing ...

But it was the common practice long before then, it didn't begin then. It was always the practice to fulfil their Sabbath obligations and then meet on the Lord's Day.

Which is a shame, and to our cost.

OK. Just the only scripturally named.

Catholic tradition calls Michael, Gabriel and Raphael archangels, but Scripture only named Michael. The Eastern Catholic Churches also venerate Uriel, Selaphiel, Jegudiel, Barachiel and Jerahmeel.

Traditionally, seven Angels were considered to be of special significance, who stand before the Throne of God. Michael is called a prince of the seraphim, but again, that's a late (13th c) tradition of St Bonaventure, whereas his contemporary, St Thomas Aquinas, says he ain't. You takes your pick.

Christian art often portrays archangels together. Michael and Gabriel accompany Mary in a Byzantine icon of the Blessed Virgin Mary that has been the subject of widespread Catholic devotions for centuries.

I don't have to, it's not dogmatic. I'm not obliged to believe either way – it's a traditional opinion, that's all.

My fault here, I was referring to the Books of Enoch. The 2nd and 3rd books are 2nd century, I think.

Not infallibly, no. Like any encyclopaedia, many of the articles are out-dated.

OK. Catechism of the Catholic Church. That's the go-to reference. Stick to that and you won't go wrong.

When I did my degree, The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott was the advised resource for a quick reference, gives a brief background, then you proceed from there.

Popes, cardinals, bishops, theologians, etc., are a matter of taste.

Some of my references were orthodox, some debatable. Some not even Catholic. For example Karl Rahner wrote a must-read work on the Trinity for scholars, but he was questionable in other areas. N T Wright, an Anglican, was a common reference for Pauline studies.

Again, we were required to read 'condemned' or refuted materials to understand the arguments. You can't, as a scholar, write an essay on the Eucharist in the modern era without reference to Edward Schillebeeckx, who had some very controversial opinions.


OK - in as much as they were angels.


OK. Then I have to say, you missed it, because the doctrine is founded on Scripture.

What you mean is you can't find any other trinity, surely?

And regarding the Scriptural Trinity, two points:
1: The Son is not subservient to the Father. He fulfills the Father's will, but as you know as a parent, (and I wish you every good thing in your upcoming arrival) the last thing we parents want is our children to be subservient to us.
2: The Holy Spirit is 'his own person' – he might be 'the anonymous one' as one of my tutors liked to call him, but he has his function and mission. Again, his personhood is argued from scripture.

To be honest, I've never given it much thought. Angelology was never a topic of mine. The tradition no doubt says seven, somewhere. I'm closer to Orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism on some aspects, and they list seven ... as I said, it's not a deal-breaker.

I didn't think you were. Nor am I trying to convince anyone to believe in the Trinity.

All I do here is defend the emergence of doctrine against errors and assumptions. You know @muhammad_isa and I have had a long slog over Arius. I actually think he was nowhere quite as bad as the histories would have us believe. And he believed what he believed in good faith. I will defend his doctrine against erroneous assumption, as much as I disagree with it.


I did not mean to defame the memory of your professor. I see I was a bit heavy-footed there, I meant no offence, but when it comes to calling oneself Catholic, then some beliefs are simply a matter of choice, others are non-negotiable – and unfortunately the Doctrine of the Incarnation and the Trinity are two non-negotiable doctrines. If you don't believe that, you are not recognisably Catholic – or if one says when is, then what to be Catholic actually means becomes nebulous, if not meaningless.

With regard to the heart, that's not for me to say.

When I was doing my degree, we had a Professor of Catholic Moral Theology – OMG, he could be difficult, and more than once simply cut the discussion dead with, "Well then, you're a heretic and that's the end of it." One of the toughest men to argue with, one of the nicest to know. He had a parish in a very run-down part of the country, and was loved even by those who never set foot in a church, because he lived the Christian message, and they knew they could trust him. He might judge what they did, buit they saw he saw passed that, to look and speak to them.
Sorry it took so long to respond. My baby boy was born! So now I have been busy. He has taken up most of my free time. I appreciate your maturity and your honesty. I don't think I need to add anything. Pretty sure we both know where we are coming from on this topic. I'll be poking my head in this forum from time to time still.
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This title.still irks me. I find "woke" is a term used to demonize compassionate, empathetic, caring people who have concern for their fellow man. Seems to me, Jesus was woke, Christianity is woke, and you gotta be woke before you can be born again.

But that is just me, and the as many have said the words and actions of many Christians ain't very Christlike.
Woke is also associated with virtue signalling and absurdity of personal pronouns, and cancelling of anyone who does not agree with shared bathrooms or male bodied trans sex offenders in women's prisons or self-identified female athletes with male bodies setting new records in women's sport, or issuing life-changing hormone treatment and gender surgery to minors, etc. The list goes on ...
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The London Tavistock Gender Clinic for Children
(recently closed by government)

Clinical Damage: The Tavistock Clinic’s closure follows a damning report on ideological malpractice

The damage done is immeasurable. No one knows how years of ideological dogma, inappropriate treatment and a culpable failure to consider the overall mental welfare of the children treated by the Tavistock Clinic will affect the thousands referred to its Gender Identity Development Service. Yesterday the government thankfully brought the scandal to a swift halt. In the wake of a devastating report in March on the clinic’s reckless prescription of puberty blockers, ministers have shut it down altogether. Treatment of children questioning their gender identity will now be handled instead by established and respected regional children’s hospitals.

Disbanding the Tavistock is not before time. The once pioneering north London centre focusing on the psychiatric care of children has become an institute captured by a pernicious clique of “queer theory” trans activists, unwilling to question the reliance on puberty blockers, analyse the longterm effects of this untested treatment, or tolerate any dissenting opinion among staff.

The Tavistock failed to collect data on puberty blockers for those under 16, refused to follow up the effects of its treatments and paid virtually no attention to other common factors such as autism, eating disorders or histories of trauma and abuse. It naively confused sexual orientation with gender identity, accepted at face value all declarations by children that they were born in the wrong body and treated all complex problems through the prism of gender.

There were plenty of warning signs. A number of senior staff objected that the clinic did not follow established protocols for the safe use of life-changing hormone treatment. Unable to voice their doubts, many left. Whistleblowers were denounced as transphobic. And as discussion of trans issues became more polemical and political, the clinic saw an extraordinary rise in the number of referrals from across the country, especially among young girls seemingly distressed about their gender. Last year there were more than 5,000 referrals compared to 250 a decade ago. Parents, warned by trans activists that failure to offer early access to hormone treatment before puberty could lead to their children’s suicide, besieged the clinic, the only one in Britain focusing on the issue.

When at last the NHS decided to investigate, the report by Dr Hilary Cass was appalling. The clinic had failed to keep accurate records of all the children treated with hormones after they grew up. There was no long-term monitoring of the out-comes, no attempt to look at other factors affecting mental wellbeing, and no distinction between clinical experience and the shrill activism of those who insisted that trans rights were above all a matter of social and political acceptance …

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Woke a term used by those who perceive they are right to demean others who actually do hold a higher standard for morality.
Jeffrey Marsh
60 seconds

It's child abuse, imo
Perfect example, her referring to that as a woke cult...lol.

Calling something you disagree with woke rather than using actual descriptive language is a joke...sheesh.
Jeffrey Marsh isn't woke?
It's out of control, imo

Woke and Maga deserve each other. Problem is the lunatic fringe brings disaster down on ordinary sane people trying to get on with their own lives

EDIT: The world is a very frightening and polarized place at the moment, imo
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Lol...MAGA is the name their leader gave them and is completely false implication...

Woke is the term MAGA uses for any opposition ...too funny really, because they think returning to the racism and misogyny and dictatorial control over others of the 1950s is what would be great...and they think others should wake up to their reality.

It would be a hilarious sitcom if it weren't a sad reality.
Woke can do no wrong?

EDIT: And if so, what wrong can it do?
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Lol...MAGA is the name their leader gave them and is completely false implication...

Woke is the term MAGA uses for any opposition ...too funny really, because they think returning to the racism and misogyny and dictatorial control over others of the 1950s is what would be great...and they think others should wake up to their reality.

It would be a hilarious sitcom if it weren't a sad reality.
Woke and Maga are just two faces of Beelzebub and Babylon, imo
Parents kept in dark over gender
The Times March 30th 2023
Nicola Woolcock Education Editor

Seven in ten schools failing to inform families when pupils question - or change - identity, report finds

Schools are routinely allowing children to switch gender and not telling their parents in a "mass breach" of safeguarding, according to research published today.

The report condemned schools for uncritically accepting contested beliefs on gender identity and said the practice of affirming "gender distress" had become embedded.

Schools were neglecting safeguarding by adopting affirmative practices when confronted with children who were questioning or were confused by their gender identity, the Policy Exchange publication said.

It suggested that some schools risked breaching laws by failing to offer single-sex toilets or by allowing organisations involved in political campaigning to provide relationship and sex education lesson resources.

Geoff Barton, general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said head teachers were trying to teach children sensitively in a "minefield of strongly held and opposing views" without guidance from the government, despite requesting support.

Forty percent of the 150 secondary schools in England that answered the right-of-centre think tank's freedom of information requests let pupils change gender without parental consent, the study found. It added that schools were "effectively facilitating medical interventions on site", by supporting pupils in their desired identity.

The former education secretaries Nadhim Zahawi and Baroness Morris of Yardley and the chairman of the Commons' education select committee, Robin Walker, have backed the report. The Labour MP Rosie Duffield said there was "systemic failure" caused an ill-considered embrace of gender ideology and that children were paying the price for a "reckless experiment".

The report, Asleep at the Wheel, found that only 28 per cent of schools were "reliably informing" parents as soon as a child disclosed feelings of gender distress and that 33 per cent would not necessarily inform the designated safeguarding lead at school -- instead some contacted the staff responsible for LGBT matters.

Forty per cent of schools operated policies of gender self-identification and 69 per cent of schools required other children to affirm the pupil's new identity. Some schools were mistakenly using the Equality Act or data protection rules to justify not telling families.

Among the report's recommendations were that parents should automatically be told when a child disclosed feelings of gender distress at school, unless there was a compelling reason not to. It also said no school should facilitate a child's social transition to the opposite gender unless backed by medical advice.

The Department for Education said: "The education secretary is working closely with the minister for women and equalities to produce guidance for schools."
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