Some thoughts

In a traditional society, sex before marriage was frowned upon, and marriage was the norm.
By traditional you mean the passed couple thousand years and not the thousands of years prior.

It is religions that decided sex would require marriage eh?

We are talking about the law, not about man and wife having no respect for each other.
Yikes... I would hope anyone who no longer respects each other, ignores consent, is no longer a team...would break the contract and move on.
 
It is religions that decided sex would require marriage eh?
Not at all. In tribal cultures sex is between husband and wife/s. Call it marriage, or whatever you like -- it takes effect when sexual intercourse occurs. Adultery is often punishable by death. It is a necessary tribal mechanism*. Religion only turned the tribal sexual mores into divine edict, imo

The Quran allows unmarried sex with slave girls, as not a threat to the tribal system, but when a slave girl became pregnant, it was necessary to officially take her to wife ...

*Sons are an important family asset
 
I guess that's how I think... My goal is the ideal always... And what I can do to reach that ideal
I think that's great, to orient oneself towards an ideal!

Where it becomes difficult is where one expects other people to also have the same ideals. Such expectations, especially if they are not made explicit, and then can be negotiated, have great potential for leading ever deeper into difgicult territory.
 
Christianity does not provide for divorce. Jesus himself abolished divorce, and Christian societies are only recently coming out of a 2000 year ban on divorce.
I grew up in a mainly Protestant society, where divorce was legal..

The Divorce Bill of 1857 introduced legislation granting divorces; this was passed over the opposition of most clergy.
Christian_views_on_divorce

..and just as a matter of interest.. :)

In 2002, the Church of England repealed a longtime ban on divorced people remarrying until after a spouse's death under "exceptional circumstances." This is why King Edward VIII, who married Wallis Simpson (a divorcee with a living ex-husband) in 1936 (i.e. before 2002), could not remain King (and head of the Church of England), while Prince Charles of Wales (later King Charles III) could marry Camilla Parker Bowles (a divorcee with a living ex-husband) in 2005 (i.e. after 2002) and later become King and head of the Church.
Christian_views_on_divorce - Wikipedia

(And even with the option of divorce, it is tough going for women to pursue a divorce, especially women who don't have an income because they "don't have to work". But that's a different, if related, point)
It shouldn't be hard to obtain divorce.
Many countries acknowledge this today .. no-fault divorce
is more common .. and rightly so, IMO.

Nevertheless, divorce should not be regarded as trivial for married couples.
They should strive to pleases G-d, and cherish each other.
 
I grew up in a mainly Protestant society, where divorce was legal..

The Divorce Bill of 1857 introduced legislation granting divorces; this was passed over the opposition of most clergy.
Christian_views_on_divorce

..and just as a matter of interest.. :)

In 2002, the Church of England repealed a longtime ban on divorced people remarrying until after a spouse's death under "exceptional circumstances." This is why King Edward VIII, who married Wallis Simpson (a divorcee with a living ex-husband) in 1936 (i.e. before 2002), could not remain King (and head of the Church of England), while Prince Charles of Wales (later King Charles III) could marry Camilla Parker Bowles (a divorcee with a living ex-husband) in 2005 (i.e. after 2002) and later become King and head of the Church.
Christian_views_on_divorce - Wikipedia


It shouldn't be hard to obtain divorce.
Many countries acknowledge this today .. no-fault divorce
is more common .. and rightly so, IMO.

Nevertheless, divorce should not be regarded as trivial for married couples.
They should strive to pleases G-d, and cherish each other.
In Mark, the first Gospel, Jesus forbids divorce under any circumstances. In Matthew and Luke it is softened to allow divorce in case of adultery. The Catholic Church takes the attitude that the church cannot go directly against the words of Jesus himself, regardless of secular divorce laws. So the Catholic Church seeks to find loopholes for annulment of the marriage -- such as a partner did not understand the conditions when they entered the marriage -- and so invalidate the marriage from the start
 
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..and I think that they have misunderstood what he was saying.
On what basis do you conclude that Jesus's words do not apply in all cases of divorce?


Mark:
They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”

“It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. ’So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
(Mark 10:4-12
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 10&version=NIV)


Matthew
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

(Matthew 19:4-12https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=NIV)

Luke:
“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
(Luke 16:18 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 16:18&version=NIV)
 
Any tribal society. Do you think Africans or Aborigines or American Indians had a free-for-all system regarding sex and procreation?
You think they didn't?

I believe kids started imitating adults before puberty. I don't think we can translate today's thoughts to then. Very few animals are monogamous and mate for life...unless survival conditions warrant
 
On what basis do you conclude that Jesus's words do not apply in all cases of divorce?
...
The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Yes .. what's this about eunuchs? :)

..so "if this is the situation between husband and wife, it's better not to marry"
What do you think they meant by that?
 
I think that's great, to orient oneself towards an ideal!

Where it becomes difficult is where one expects other people to also have the same ideals. Such expectations, especially if they are not made explicit, and then can be negotiated, have great potential for leading ever deeper into difgicult territory.
And that goes along with Judge not. I know more people that have divorced than have stayed married to their original partner. I was blessed to have grandparents and parents that stayed married to have an example for myself.. I however have two children from different fathers that I was not married to. It wasnt until my later life that I married and one husband passed away and to remarry again currently. Interestingly the latter two God chose for me without any doubt to myself. So here I am unable to judge another's actions as I am guilty as well. I feel no guilt but I definitely strive to be better and do better with what God has given me.
 
Yes .. what's this about eunuchs? :)

..so "if this is the situation between husband and wife, it's better not to marry"
What do you think they meant by that?
I believe that marriage forces a mans focus to share on wife and family along with God. Whereas an unmarried man would be able to put all of his focus on serving God and spreading the message. A eunuch would not have temptation of the flesh to be a stumbling block.
 
You think they didn't?
Of course they didn't. Wives were paid for
 
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..and I think that they have misunderstood what he was saying.
That would be difficult to misunderstand what Jesus said so specifically. I have yet to see a marriage that ended in divorce that the two were unscathed emotionally. A marriage in my experience is more than physical it is also spiritual. Me and my husband frequently share the same thoughts it's weird! An example as trivial as it might seem I will be thinking I would love a certain type of cereal and he comes home with that exact cereal. These kinds of things happens all the time. Marriage should be an unselfish thing where we are serving each other and anticipating each others needs and wants.

I have a recipe for this. At any given time one will be the giver and the other the taker.. this should be equal.. if one partner is always the taker and the other the giver you are probably looking at a divorce in the future. It's not sustainable. Another part of this is we all have faults . We should be able to love our spouse .. good and the bad . If your spouse has a fault that you can't accept or even love about them.. there will probably be a divorce.
 
Yes .. what's this about eunuchs? :)

..so "if this is the situation between husband and wife, it's better not to marry"
What do you think they meant by that?
Islam does not accept monasticism or celibacy. Many other religions do, as a choice for some who wish to renounce all attachments and devote their lives to God alone.
 
“The modern monogamous culture has only been around for just 1,000 years,” says Kit Opie, an evolutionary anthropologist from University College London.


It was Christianity that spread monogamy throughout the Western world, even as it struggled to fully justify its monolithic order on romance – no Biblical passages explicitly prohibit multiple partners (or, well, wives).


changed tack from competing with the higher-ranked rivals to revealing their more caring side to potential suitors.

At some point in early human history our ancestors stopped mating in a promiscuous manner (well, most of them) and adopted the new, more orderly, mating system of monogamy. It is still not fully understood why this transition would have occurred.

 
I believe that marriage forces a mans focus to share on wife and family along with God. Whereas an unmarried man would be able to put all of his focus on serving God and spreading the message. A eunuch would not have temptation of the flesh to be a stumbling block.
OK
I see it as meaning that if one can't get married, and then divorce when it suits them,
it becomes a huge commitment and burden.
..but that is exactly what Jesus was saying, IMO.
A man should not divorce his wife, just because the going gets tough.
 
It was Christianity that spread monogamy throughout the Western world
Monagmy, sure. But religion is not responsible for the custom of marriage. Tribal people weren't running around wild having sex and babies with whomever they chose, imo
 
Monagmy, sure. But religion is not responsible for the custom of marriage. Tribal people weren't running around wild having sex and babies with whomever they chose, imo
Marriage today is a contract...be it religious or govt imposed.

Again, what makes you think they were not running around having babies and sex with whoever they choose?




 
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