Some thoughts

[juantoo3]

Any tribal society. Do you think Africans or Aborigines or American Indians had a free-for-all system regarding sex and procreation?

Just as a matter of clarification, Native Americans (at least in some tribes, I don't know about all of them) also had a version of divorce. If she wished to walk away for any reason or no reason, she was free to do so and take up another husband.

So I guess it depends how literal with "marriage" you wish to compare. I've wondered where the "institution of marriage" came from, as an historian, but haven't looked very deep into it yet. But at least among Native Americans, while there may be a "ceremony" of a kind to let the rest of the tribe know he and she have chosen to live life together, the ties that bind were comparatively loose and easily thrown off.

I can't speak to other tribal societies, but I would not be the least surprised if the situation were similar. Without researching, I'm inclined to think what we today call marriage is an artifact of Religious domination over Politics, and the money to be made on the legal pronouncement. My opinion and wide open to correction.

 

[RJM]

Marriage today is a contract...be it religious or govt imposed.

Again, what makes you think they were not running around having babies and sex with whoever they choose?

Promiscuity in Antiquity: Sex in Ancient Rome

The civilisation of Ancient Rome spanned over 1,000 years, from the founding of the Republic to the fall of the Empire in the West. That’s a long...

www.historyhit.com

Sexual Pleasure in Precolonial Africa | IPPF

Has Africa always been conservative towards sex? The answer is No!

www.ippf.org

For Native Americans, Sex Didn't Come With Guilt

For the Aboriginal people of North America, sex was not associated with guilt.

www.fairobserver.com

https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/relationships/sex/heres-the-average-number-of-sexual-partners-each-generation-has-had-in-their-lifetime/news-story/f114d63057bf898cc8581328d7f31ac5

Sexual liberation came with reliable contraception, imo

It's not to say a man who could afford many wives did not buy them, or that couples did not enjoy sex for pleasure, but only for procreation. However tribal societies were not promiscuous. Marriage has always been a standard custom.

 

[RJM]

So I guess it depends how literal with "marriage" you wish to compare. I've wondered where the "institution of marriage" came from, as an historian, but haven't looked very deep into it yet. But at least among Native Americans, while there may be a "ceremony" of a kind to let the rest of the tribe know he and she have chosen to live life together, the ties that bind were comparatively loose and easily thrown off.

Perhaps. But sons were a valuable asset. I'm not talking about divorce or sex for pleasure, or western conservative values. A man could basically have as many wives as they could afford to support. But he was essentially restricted to sex with his wives, and they to him. It would be interesting to know what you come up with, if you do look further into it?

 

[RJM]

In Africa, many fat wives and many fat cattle were the mark of a man's prosperity. Big trouble if wives were caught sleeping around -- at least in theory

 

[TheLightWithin]

I guess that's how I think... My goal is the ideal always... And what I can do to reach that ideal

It is wonderful to reach for ideals. Laudable. Everyone should.
The only shortcoming at all in the thinking is this -- if no provision is made for a reality which is less than ideal.
If ideal is the only option.
I think it's related to the following ideas - worldviews even:
"Failure is not an option. Winning is the ONLY thing" Focus on ideal ONLY can lead to no win situations.
If failure is not an option, what happens if one does fail? If winning is the only thing, what happens if one doesn't win?

 

[TheLightWithin]

In Africa, many fat wives and many fat cattle were the mark of a man's prosperity. Big trouble if wives were caught sleeping around -- at least in theory

Yes, I remember learning a lot about how to understand that kind of thing from taking an evolutionary psychology class years ago with Dr Gordon Gallup. The imperative of passing on genes. I don't think people are conscious of it, but some genes spread more than others if people behave in certain ways.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Nevertheless, divorce should not be regarded as trivial for married couples.
They should strive to pleases G-d, and cherish each other.

No, divorce should not be regarded as trivial.
Even non religious people should cherish marriage and one another.
I think one of the things that makes divorce possibly trivialized is marrying unwisely.
Marrying in haste, for example.
Or, an unhappy non married couple thinking that marrying will resolve their problems.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Any tribal society. Do you think Africans or Aborigines or American Indians had a free-for-all system regarding sex and procreation?

Yes, I understood RJM's prior post about tribes to mean tribal systems broadly speaking.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Monagmy, sure. But religion is not responsible for the custom of marriage. Tribal people weren't running around wild having sex and babies with whomever they chose, imo

Probably not, though Western missionaries, not understanding their marriage customs, sometimes perceived them to be.

 

[RJM]

It was Christianity that spread monogamy throughout the Western world, even as it struggled to fully justify its monolithic order on romance – no Biblical passages explicitly prohibit multiple partners (or, well, wives).

I believe that ancient Greece and Rome both had monogamy in marriage.

 

[RJM]

History of Iran: Women's lives in ancient Persia
Iran Chamber Society
https://www.iranchamber.com › history › articles › wo...
The (Persian) family was basically monogamous but under certain conditions husbands could marry other wives and were permitted sexual intercourse with slaves and ...

Aroosi: Everything You've Ever Wanted to Know About Persian Weddings

www.chaiandconversation.com

Scythians and others certainly had defined marriage ceremonies, although it's not known whether Scythians practiced monogamy

Scythian Women

Scythian women garnered leadership roles and a raised level of status in their day, which is perhaps without parallel until recent times. While many female figures rose to pivotal roles in history...

www.worldhistory.org

Marriage is an ancient tribal custom

 

[muhammad_isa]

Marriage is an ancient tribal custom

I don't know what your point is..
Many people say that belief in gods is an ancient custom,
and that YHWH was one of them.

It makes no difference to me, because I believe that many prophets
have been sent to the world, and marriage is ordained by G-d.

 

[RJM]

I don't know what your point is..
Many people say that belief in gods is an ancient custom,
and that YHWH was one of them.

My point is simply to say my own piece in response to the proposition that marriage is a recent religious institution:

Without researching, I'm inclined to think what we today call marriage is an artifact of Religious domination over Politics, and the money to be made on the legal pronouncement. My opinion and wide open to correction.

It is religions that decided sex would require marriage eh?

 

[RJM]

It makes no difference to me, because I believe that many prophets
have been sent to the world, and marriage is ordained by G-d.

Do you imply that without prophets or religion, that the life of tribal people would have been a sexual free-for all? Sons belonged to their father, as workers or warriors: it was at least necessary to know whose child was whose?

In fact tribal societies had strict marriage customs -- which often were polygamous, but nevertheless binding within the particular family unit. Free sex was never a tribal behaviour. Concubines were a part of things, but clearly recognized as not being wives, imo

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you imply that without prophets or religion, that the life of tribal people would have been a sexual free-for all?

I don't know about "would have beens"
I am more concerned about where we are all heading right now.

 

[wil]

Do you imply that without prophets or religion, that the life of tribal people would have been a sexual free-for all?

If the half a.dozen articles I found are.any indication for.some yes.

Yesterday, as today, different people have different sexual proclivities. I find it is often normal for folks to assume others think and act like ourselves for the most part.

The number of sexual partners in one's life on average well exceeds the number of marriages. Shotgun weddings, had to get married, all these are definitions of sex before marriage.

Thankfully no one is slapping us with rulers anymore and forcing us to be left handed. I.am fully aware that your tribe requires marriage and monogamy...but that is not the norm, nor a sin for all tribes..and I believe you are fully aware that many within your own tribe don't ascribe to those rules.

I am glad.to have reached puberty on the heels of the sexual revolution. Pleased to not have been born under puritanical rule. Had 20 good years of monogamous marriage...she chose to move on...which I think is fine, much to the chagrine of friends and relatives who thought I should fight to insist someone who know longer wished to live with me...be forced to stay with me..
In my world ...that ain't love.

 

[RJM]

I am glad.to have reached puberty on the heels of the sexual revolution. Pleased to not have been born under puritanical rule. Had 20 good years of monogamous marriage...she chose to move on...which I think is fine, much to the chagrine of friends and relatives who thought I should fight to insist someone who know longer wished to live with me...be forced to stay with me..
In my world ...that ain't love.

What has that got to do with marriage (often polygamous marriage) as a tribal institution regardless of religion -- especially Christian religion, as you seem to imply?

Thankfully no one is slapping us with rulers anymore and forcing us to be left handed. I.am fully aware that your tribe requires marriage and monogamy...but that is not the norm, nor a sin for all tribes..and I believe you are fully aware that many within your own tribe don't ascribe to those rules.

My tribe? What is my tribe? Why do you keep equating the tribal custom of marriage with Christian monogamy? Romans were monogamous, Greeks were monogamous. However marriage customs are not always or even usually monogamous. Marriage is an institution in all tribes and cultures, regardless of religiosity, imo. Even Bushmen and Amazon Indians have a system of marriage.

There may be exceptions, but that's beside the point

The number of sexual partners in one's life on average well exceeds the number of marriages. Shotgun weddings, had to get married, all these are definitions of sex before marriage.

So what?

Yesterday, as today, different people have different sexual proclivities. I find it is often normal for folks to assume others think and act like ourselves for the most part.

What has marriage got to do with sexual proclivity? There have always been mistresses and concubines and prostitution -- but marriage has always been the formal cultural institution to sort out children and sons and daugfhters and property inheritance and so on.

The 21st Century global village of 8 billion people faces different issues -- but it is completely wrong to say that because marriage is no longer important in the 21st Century, that western Christianity is responsible for creating the cultural institution of marriage, imo

 

[wil]

Monogamy requirements cause people to lie ... to their spouse, their religious institutions, their friends, their govt, and their lovers!

The State of Affairs: A Brief History of Getting Some on the Side

The extramarital alliance has an interesting history of its own. It’s not all clichés from John Updike and Gay Talese. Here’s a snapshot of how various moments in history might […]

bigthink.com

Some Greeks may have been monogamous as some romans ... not close to all.

I've been approached and I admit seduced/succumbed by a number of married women before I got married.

 

[RJM]

Some Greeks may have been monogamous as some romans...not close to all.

Do you mean they were only married to one spouse -- or that they weren't faithful? The legal marriage in Greece and Rome was to one partner. A person could divorce and remarry. There have always been unfaithful marriages, whether monogamous or polygamous. There have always been concubines and prostitutes. It doesn't mean that marriage is a Christian imposition upon society. Marriage has always existed in one form or another, imo

I've been approached and I admit seduced/succumbed by a number of married women before I got married.

So what?

 

[wil]

So what?

Just saying, both every poll that chose to ask if spouses were faithful and monogamous and personal experience comes out showing the majority are not

Not saying they all sleep around but have made mistakes, had moments of lapse, affairs ... it is normal behaviour