Jesus Christ, he will return?

Postmaster

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You make good points in your last post, are any of these laws only found in babism? I wasn't aware I must say.

As for the homosexuality part I agree with the Baha'i faith though.
 

lunamoth

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Christianity owes a lot of it's theology to previous religions, one that Christianity hand on heart accepts is that the Judaic theology (of which some is in contradiction to it anyway). But the influenced theology goes much further and older then just Judaism all the way back to Zoroastrian and Greek paganism. Some still regard Christianity superior though.

This actually sounds a lot closer to the Baha'i view than to the one I hold. Certainly the development of religions is typically influenced by or based upon existing nearby religions, and Christianity is no exception.

I actually agree with your hypothesis that the Baha'i Fatih was probably largely influenced by Manicheism, as well as Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity, just as Christianity grew out of Judaism. I think however it is disingenuous and a barrier to real relationship/dialogue to tell other people that they do not understand their own scriptures, that they've got it all wrong and have so from the beginning.

Frankly, it is not in my interest to 'bash' Baha'is at all...but I am not keen with them prosyletizing on the Christianity board.
 

lunamoth

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You make good points in your last post, are any of these laws only found in babism? I wasn't aware I must say.

No, these laws are Baha'i Laws...found in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (Holy Book of Law). Worth a read.

As for the homosexuality part I agree with the Baha'i faith though.

I know you agree about homosexuality PM, however also know that a gay Baha'i who remains in a homosexual relationship will likely lose administrative rights and until they end the relationship they will not be allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs.

It was this point that separated my heart from the Baha'i Faith, in spite of all the otherwise good principles it upholds.

I could not teach my kids that homosexuality is a spiritual disease. I imagined how awful it is for Baha'i kids growing up with this message and as they approach puberty realizing that they are different, and the terror and self-loathing that could cause to adolescents.


added: Even if one agrees that homosexuality is a sin, or a disorder, it does not make sense to me to cut someone out of the community becasue of it. We are all broken and in need of healing in one form or another. If God is the Divine Healer, it seems like the better response to love and have compassion for those you deem need healing.
 

Postmaster

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I want to say I'm not prosyletizing, you could indeed be right, this is disscussion I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm open to suggestion which I appreaicte your point of view. I'm not a Baha'i, I have been interested in the religion which you probably know.

As for homosexuality many major world religions reject this way of life.
 

wil

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...a gay Baha'i who remains in a homosexual relationship will likely lose administrative rights and until they end the relationship they will not be allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs.

It was this point that separated my heart from the Baha'i Faith, in spite of all the otherwise good principles it upholds.

I could not teach my kids that homosexuality is a spiritual disease. I imagined how awful it is for Baha'i kids growing up with this message and as they approach puberty realizing that they are different, and the terror and self-loathing that could cause to adolescents.
Namaste Luna,

I hear you, but what do most denominations of Christianity teach?

It seems that many leave Christianity for much the same reasons you state.
 

lunamoth

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I want to say I'm not prosyletizing, you could indeed be right, this is disscussion I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm open to suggestion which I appreaicte your point of view. I'm not a Baha'i, I have been interested in the religion which you probably know.

I know Peter. That was aimed at SMKolins.

As for homosexuality many major world religions reject this way of life.


Many, yes. All, no. Christianity...it's not at all clear to me that all expressions of homosexuality would be condemned by Jesus...not clear at all.
 

lunamoth

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Namaste Luna,

I hear you, but what do most denominations of Christianity teach?

It seems that many leave Christianity for much the same reasons you state.

You are right wil, and that's how I justified the teachings of the Baha'i Faith in my mind for quite a long time. It's no worse than Christianity I said to myself.

Christianity is not a denomination. Those who leave because of this issue, because they are marginalized, persecuted, and oppressed, are right to do so. Those who leave a denomination because they disagree with this doctrine are right to do so. You know my own denomination is torn over this issue, but unlike in the Baha'i Faith I will not be 'disenrolled' for saying publically that I think homosexuals can be Bishops.

Humans have always drawn lines around acceptible and unacceptible social behaviors, and we've always argued about where those lines are drawn. That's not going to stop...we need to keep talking about this with compassion and with guidance from the Holy Spirit. We are not all going to agree, ever, but we need to keep talking. From science we gain new understandings about the nature of homosexuality. From growing openness of homosexual relationships we learn more about how such arrangements affect the health of people, children, families. We get new info all the time.

In the Baha'i Faith it is not on the table for consultation, and will not be for another 850 years.

luna
 

wil

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Many, yes. All, no. Christianity...it's not at all clear to me that all expressions of homosexuality would be condemned by Jesus...not clear at all.
Yes as the title of this thread contemplates his returning....

me thinks that when he does (if he hasn't been visiting all along) he would be asking us to contemplate who would throw the first stone, and discussions about logs and eyes...
 

Postmaster

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My own investigation about homosexuality has drawn a conclusion of not agreeing with it, this is regardless of the Baha'i faith or Christianity. I have homosexual relatives and friends but I treat them with just as much respect as everyone else. However I do not agree with there way of life. Just because they are beta males or females doesn't make them born homosexuals. We are all born with all the necessary productive organs to pursue a healthy productive and intended life style. Medically we might not for one reason or another but this doesn't mean we should pursue something contrary.
 

smkolins

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I agree with the first part postmaster, but not the second. For me religion is a path that leads me to God, and most emphatically not 'an administratin I wish to support.'

And I agree with you that that is what religion is for - even the ones that establish an administration.
 

smkolins

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The immutable laws and the highly centralized authority structure which also has no transparency or accountability to its adherants is a system with a large chance for error and abuse, and great oppression. No checks and balances. It foresees becoming a State religion, and then the World religion. It denies vote and voice to anyone who breaks one of its religious laws (including the personal chastity laws, not just things like do not steal, do not kill). If you get married without the permission of your parents, you are not allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs. Anything written by a Baha'i about the Faith must be approved by the Universal House of Justice...this form of control of media effectively prevents any criticism from the general membership (no checks and balances again).

It does not allow women to serve on the highest governing body, the Universal House of Justice.

It teaches that homosexuality is a spiritual disease.

By its laws it is permissible to burn an arsonist as punishment, and some Baha'is see this as the better alternative to life imprisonment because if they are punished in this life they will not have reprecussions in the next life.

You bet I am uncomfortable with these things.

Ok. Now what?

Shall we review each religion's stances everyone is uneasy at?

How about reviewing the pros and cons about each?

Or some general evolutionary model across religions about how these things change or don't?

Or since none of this really matters, just the authority to say such things. Didn't Jesus forbid and allow things Jews practices for centuries?

Would you have been a Christian in the first few centuries of it's history or only now that 2000 years have passed? If only Jesus matters and your faith clear and bright then you would have been a Christian when women couldn't be leaders in church communities and no one had the right to vote and books were burned, when the Roman Empire was Christian and the Holy Roman Empire after that. Where does Jesus call for accountability and how?

I knew someone a while back - haven't seen him in years. He had an odd sort of philosophy I have to recall on more than one occasion. If the truth is required to set us free and we are not free then the only religion that serve us is one that is uncomfortable. If it fits too easily it wont work.
 

smkolins

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You make good points in your last post, are any of these laws only found in babism? I wasn't aware I must say.

As for the homosexuality part I agree with the Baha'i faith though.

Just to be clear I don't agree her characterizations are complete or balanced and border on just bad understanding. They were enough for her and others to withdraw from the religion, but not enough people are withdrawing to make it less than the fastest growing religion among the top 10 and across thousands of ethnic groups and languages.

As for Babism some of its laws were, if I may say, harsher. Mind these were times when blowing people from canons, pardon the mental picture, actually happened on a fairly regular basis. The world has changed remarkably since then and I feel in no little part due to these religions since then.

Additionally nor is this the place for an extended discussion of the topics she mentions. There is of course room elsewhere.
 

smkolins

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added: Even if one agrees that homosexuality is a sin, or a disorder, it does not make sense to me to cut someone out of the community becasue of it. We are all broken and in need of healing in one form or another. If God is the Divine Healer, it seems like the better response to love and have compassion for those you deem need healing.

Compassion doesn't mean allowing persistence in doing wrong, if wrong it is. At times it becomes tough love.
 

mee

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When the Son of man (Jesus)arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, matthew 25;31 ....angels are not flesh and blood they are spirit like Jesus has a spiritual body .............. so Jesus will not come in the flesh of a human being . so dont be misled to believe that Jesus is coming to the earth as a man , because he has been there and done that, and worn the teashirt already. Jesus PRESENCE is not a physical seeing of Jesus , but we sure do know that the signs that Jesus left us to look out for , are happening on a large scale . and Jesus presence in kingdom power is clear to see . but this reigning king has yet to go into action and judge the sheep and the goats. now is the time to recognize Jesus presence and the channel that he is directing matthew 24;45-47
 

mee

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It is certainly true that the Lord’s coming will be thieflike to people of the world, who shut their ears to the warning of impending calamity. (2 Peter 3:3-7) However, what about true Christians? The apostle Paul wrote to fellow believers: "You yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:2) There is no doubt in our minds that "Jehovah’s day is coming." But does that minimize the need for us to keep on the watch? Notice that it was to his disciples that Jesus said: "At an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming." (Matthew 24:44) Earlier, when urging his disciples to seek continually the Kingdom, Jesus cautioned: "Keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming." (Luke 12:31, 40) Is it not clear that Jesus had his followers in mind when he warned: "Keep on the watch"?
 

zapple05

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Did you notice Jesus said He would return in THAT generation.....meaning the generation He was speaking to? Have you ever wondered why the New Test. writers believed Jesus was coming back in their lifetime? Were they wrong or are we wrong about the NATURE of His coming? I believe we are wrong. Want to hear more? Let me know.
 

mee

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Did you notice Jesus said He would return in THAT generation.....meaning the generation He was speaking to? Have you ever wondered why the New Test. writers believed Jesus was coming back in their lifetime? Were they wrong or are we wrong about the NATURE of His coming? I believe we are wrong. Want to hear more? Let me know.
is this the verse you were refering too
Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. matthew 24 ;34
 
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