Jesus Christ, he will return?

pattimax

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Starting with this a clue...

"Imitation destroys the foundation of religion, extinguishes the spirituality of the human world, transforms heavenly illumination into darkness and deprives man of the knowledge of God. It is the cause of the victory of materialism and infidelity over religion; it is the denial of Divinity and the law of revelation; it refuses Prophethood and rejects the Kingdom of God. When materialists subject imitations to the intellectual analysis of reason, they find them to be mere superstitions; therefore, they deny religion."

I would then consider the authentic effort to be one's own of heart and mind - of sincerity and honesty, To be wary of what others say - me or you or another - and instead keep to what experience and faith and insight reveal. As God sees our effort, He will not let us struggle in vain.

A person is deceived by thinking that all paths are one, it can “extinguish the spirituality of the human world, transform heavenly illumination into darkness and deprive man of the knowledge of God.” And yes, there are many paths and all but one reject the Kingdom of God. When God’s son is denied, religion itself is denied.

Being conscious of your behavior toward others and yourself is very important, but if your faith is not in Jesus Christ, you will struggle in vain. Experience, faith, and insight have revealed this to me.
 

Penguin

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Another question which perhaps people have forgotten about here is that when Jesus has his second coming will he have to die for all our sins once again and go through the same ordeal as before? If history repeats itself, and if you want to look at the future you look at the past right? He had to carry our sins before so why not again?

My thoughts.
 

Dondi

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Another question which perhaps people have forgotten about here is that when Jesus has his second coming will he have to die for all our sins once again and go through the same ordeal as before? If history repeats itself, and if you want to look at the future you look at the past right? He had to carry our sins before so why not again?

My thoughts.

No, Jesus died once for all according to Hebrews 9:27:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

When Jesus comes again, He will not be coming as a humble servant, but in all His Power and Glory:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." - Matthew 24:30

A picture of His coming as a conquering King is found in Revelation 19:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." - Revelation 19:11-16

"Oh when the saints, go marching in, oh when the saints go marching in, O Lord, I want to be in that number..." (I surely don't want to be on the other side)
 

smkolins

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Do you mean that Christianity is at best a misunderstanding, rather than the one path?

Hi Lunamoth,

Why do we have to keep covering this ground?

No it doesn't mean that Christianity is at best a misunderstanding. It means that Christianity's goal is to lead you towards God and as soon as it has done it's job then, as the goal is God, Christianity is not important and then to hold to Christianity rather than to God is to misunderstand the path, what Christianity is for.
 

lunamoth

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Hi Lunamoth,

Why do we have to keep covering this ground?

Have we covered this ground before?

No it doesn't mean that Christianity is at best a misunderstanding. It means that Christianity's goal is to lead you towards God and as soon as it has done it's job then, as the goal is God, Christianity is not important and then to hold to Christianity rather than to God is to misunderstand the path, what Christianity is for.

Then would you also say that the Baha'i Faith's goal is to lead one toward God and as soon as one finds God, the Baha'i Faith is not important? And to then hold to the Baha'i Faith rather than to God is to misunderstand the path, what the Baha'i Faith is for?
 

smkolins

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Have we covered this ground before?



Then would you also say that the Baha'i Faith's goal is to lead one toward God and as soon as one finds God, the Baha'i Faith is not important? And to then hold to the Baha'i Faith rather than to God is to misunderstand the path, what the Baha'i Faith is for?

More so - I would say there are measurable markers when a religion has begun to fail to lead the larger percent of its population - when it has generally begun to fail to lead people towards God and is more interested in itself than in God. One simple way I think most can agree with is when religion leads to extremists who kill because it is viewed as service to the religion. Sure that would be one measure of when a religion is not leading people towards God.

What do you think?

Let me clarify - when this happens it is not the original teachings or Revelation that have become lost as much as it is what we are making of those teachings. Either by lack of faith or overlays of interpretation or simply failing to follow the guidance given.
 

lunamoth

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More so - I would say there are measurable markers when a religion has begun to fail to lead the larger percent of its population - when it has generally begun to fail to lead people towards God and is more interested in itself than in God. One simple way I think most can agree with is when religion leads to extremists who kill because it is viewed as service to the religion. Sure that would be one measure of when a religion is not leading people towards God.

What do you think?

Let me clarify - when this happens it is not the original teachings or Revelation that have become lost as much as it is what we are making of those teachings. Either by lack of faith or overlays of interpretation or simply failing to follow the guidance given.

I would say that the Baha'i Faith lead me back to God and then when it was no longer leading me to God, it was better for me to leave it behind.

I would also say that one should not judge Christianity by the extremists who kill any more than one should judge the Baha'i Faith by the early Babi followers who in their misplaced zeal plotted against the Shah.

Every religion is full of fallible and imperfect people. I think it is an unfair charge to say that Christianity is more interested in itself than in leading people to God.

What I make of the Gospel is that God wants us to love God and each other as He loves us.
 

smkolins

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I would say that the Baha'i Faith lead me back to God and then when it was no longer leading me to God, it was better for me to leave it behind.

I would also say that one should not judge Christianity by the extremists who kill any more than one should judge the Baha'i Faith by the early Babi followers who in their misplaced zeal plotted against the Shah.

Every religion is full of fallible and imperfect people. I think it is an unfair charge to say that Christianity is more interested in itself than in leading people to God.

What I make of the Gospel is that God wants us to love God and each other as He loves us.

Certainly there will always be individuals who act in the name of a religion who utterly fail to represent any of its tenants. But there are larger scale issues - when many wars are fought, when institutions of social prominence who are allied to a religion but are in fact vicious machines of oppression and injustice, the very leaders of religion are themselves engaged in compromising the virtues of honesty and sincerity their religion calls upon, when this is all not just a pattern of a few but of the many, when factions develop in the religion so deeply that they call eachother unbeleiver (not just believing differently but unbeliever, then perhaps that religion is a cause of God looking to guide mankind again. This could be Christianity or the Baha'i Faith or Islam or Buddhism or any religion - yes the original teachings are themselves sound, but mankind has turned their backs on the religion.

What will turn them back?

When will they listen and hear?

This isn't just wishful thinking or pining - this is the promise of His return, is it not?
 

Postmaster

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This could be Christianity or the Baha'i Faith or Islam or Buddhism or any religion - yes the original teachings are themselves sound, but mankind has turned their backs on the religion.

I agree with this statement.
 

Postmaster

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People practise good and bad independently from religion, religion is an administration you wish to support.
 

lunamoth

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People practise good and bad independently from religion, religion is an administration you wish to support.


I agree with the first part postmaster, but not the second. For me religion is a path that leads me to God, and most emphatically not 'an administratin I wish to support.'
 

lunamoth

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Certainly there will always be individuals who act in the name of a religion who utterly fail to represent any of its tenants. But there are larger scale issues - when many wars are fought, when institutions of social prominence who are allied to a religion but are in fact vicious machines of oppression and injustice, the very leaders of religion are themselves engaged in compromising the virtues of honesty and sincerity their religion calls upon, when this is all not just a pattern of a few but of the many, when factions develop in the religion so deeply that they call eachother unbeleiver (not just believing differently but unbeliever, then perhaps that religion is a cause of God looking to guide mankind again. This could be Christianity or the Baha'i Faith or Islam or Buddhism or any religion - yes the original teachings are themselves sound, but mankind has turned their backs on the religion.

The Baha'i Faith has the exact same pattern as the other religions you mention. The seeds of injustice and oppression are already planted and sprouting. One must consider carefully whethr they want to be part of that continuing system.

What will turn them back?

When will they listen and hear?
In the twinkinling of an eye. The Kingdom of God is all around us. The KOG is not something that is built, but something you enter into when you accept Christ's invitation to follow Him. It is not contained in a building or a religion.

This isn't just wishful thinking or pining - this is the promise of His return, is it not?

You may very well be awake to Christ's message Stephen...I don't know. But being a Baha'i does not assure it. And no, I am not talking about salvation in the hereafter, but being part of the Kingdom that is both now and not yet.

The Hope of His Return is that it will be the consummation of what has already been started with the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. God will come in power and in glory (and no need to point out to me what Baha'u'llah means...a name is just a name).

The Return will not be, as it is in the Baha'i Faith, 'more of the same.'
 

Postmaster

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I agree with the first part postmaster, but not the second. For me religion is a path that leads me to God, and most emphatically not 'an administratin I wish to support.'

I'm not saying that it's not, I'm saying one of it's functions is an administration.

If we look at Christianity for instance, it started forming well before Jesus Christ, where would Christianity be without the latter prophets, would be of course non existent.

lunamoth said:
The Baha'i Faith has the exact same pattern as the other religions you mention. The seeds of injustice and oppression are already planted and sprouting. One must consider carefully whethr they want to be part of that continuing system.

I've been down this path of thought, I don't think the Baha'i faith harvests oppression of any intensional kind. It does however rock what your emotionally comfortable with.
 

lunamoth

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I'm saying that it's not, I'm saying one of it's functions is an administration.

If we look at Christianity for instance, it started forming well before Jesus Christ.

Could you explain more of what you mean?



I've been down this path of thought, I don't think the Baha'i faith harvests oppression of any kind, honestly.

I found that it does...I think it is following a path with the blueprint in place, a blueprint all the more dangerous because it is considered infallible, that can cause much oppression, much like the early Catholic church and as Islam is now. The effects now are small, because the Baha'i Faith is yet small.

The Faith can avoid these same mistakes but so far seems to be taking a route that will only make them more likely.
 

wil

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I would say that the _______ Faith lead me back to God and then when it was no longer leading me to God, it was better for me to leave it behind.
goosebumps.

I edited the name since I edited the quote....but I love the sentiment.

This really acknowledges the wonders of interfaith, of allowing folks to grow where ever they are, as that is where they need to be. And when they no longer need to be there you may see them again...goosebumps.

Tis absolutely amazing what might be the impetus to take the first step, and the resulting second step...and who can say the step we are on is the step we continue on?
 

Postmaster

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lunamoth said:
Could you explain more of what you mean?

Christianity owes a lot of it's theology to previous religions, one that Christianity hand on heart accepts is that the Judaic theology (of which some is in contradiction to it anyway). But the influenced theology goes much further and older then just Judaism all the way back to Zoroastrian and Greek paganism. Some still regard Christianity superior though.


lunamoth said:
I found that it does...I think it is following a path with the blueprint in place, a blueprint all the more dangerous because it is considered infallible, that can cause much oppression, much like the early Catholic church and as Islam is now. The effects now are small, because the Baha'i Faith is yet small.

The Faith can avoid these same mistakes but so far seems to be taking a route that will only make them more likely.


Maybe we're scared it's going to happen, personally I don't think it's in the nature of the Baha'i faith to cause oppression.
 

lunamoth

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Maybe we're scared it's going to happen, personally I don't think it's in the nature of the Baha'i faith to cause oppression.

The immutable laws and the highly centralized authority structure which also has no transparency or accountability to its adherants is a system with a large chance for error and abuse, and great oppression. No checks and balances. It foresees becoming a State religion, and then the World religion. It denies vote and voice to anyone who breaks one of its religious laws (including the personal chastity laws, not just things like do not steal, do not kill). If you get married without the permission of your parents, you are not allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs. Anything written by a Baha'i about the Faith must be approved by the Universal House of Justice...this form of control of media effectively prevents any criticism from the general membership (no checks and balances again).

It does not allow women to serve on the highest governing body, the Universal House of Justice.

It teaches that homosexuality is a spiritual disease.

By its laws it is permissible to burn an arsonist as punishment, and some Baha'is see this as the better alternative to life imprisonment because if they are punished in this life they will not have reprecussions in the next life.

You bet I am uncomfortable with these things.
 
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