Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
Not for all. Some still stick to their books which are comical, claiming existence of Gods and messengers from that imagined entity.
The Myth of Progress
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Ahanu
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Well, according to your worldview, consciousness is an epiphenomenon, an elaborate illusion that's an unintentional by-product of random matter-in-motion, so, when I stick to "their books," I cannot really deviate from the predetermined pathway set by the initial conditions of the universe and the subsequent chain of cause-and-effect.
Therefore, to think it is ridiculous to "still stick to their books" under such a worldview is ridiculous and absurd since the absurdity - the religious belief - is really not a choice but a product of a predetermined system. What you are really ridiculing in your framework is the predetermined outcome.
Under your framework, calling any belief "ridiculous" could be interpreted as assigning blame or judgment to the predetermined outcome, which becomes self-contradictory. Judging the individual for having that belief essentially implies holding them responsible for an outcome they have no control over. Now you are talking square-circles and other magical entities. See, even atheists accept magical thinking when it suits them.
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Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
Nothing is predetermined in nature. Happens when it happens, and it has no consequences for the way of things.
Even the demise of a galaxy does not matter. Andromeda is rushing towards the Milky way galaxy and the two will collide in 4-5 billion years.
Of course, there is no guarantee that Milky way will last till that time. There is a huge black-hole at the center of Milky way.
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Ahanu
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Well, please clarify what you previously wrote in another thread:
Unless you have changed your mind since then, you are saying that our actions are predetermined or lack free will. In other words, I cannot change my "ridiculous" choice because it is all chemical and electrical reaction in the midst of a long chain of cause-and-effect.
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Not all forms. Just what it is to be human.
Not my intention. Rather highlighting the assumption that because there has been technological progress, every aspect of what it is to be human has progressed.
The material condition. Because man's material condition improves, that does not necessarily mean he has progressed or evolved in any significant manner.
It's just tech. It shows the best and worst of us, as tech has always done, since the lever and wheel.
Our use of tech has initiated a number of undeniable advances, whilst it has brought the environment to the point of collapse (indeed, we may have already crossed that threshold), so on balance, using 'tech' as an example of human advancement might not be entirely to our advantage?
Or, as a non-tech 'savage' would say: "Look at the mess you have made."
Or, as a non-tech 'savage' would say: "Look at the mess you have made."
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
Our actions depend on chance, probability and randomness. Neither predetermined nor because of any free will. The are basically sort of consequental.
Ahanu
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Does consciousness have a role in influencing actions? Stating consciousness is purely "chemical and electrical reaction" could mean conscious agents have no independent causal power. In other words, consciousness could be a byproduct of physical processes but doesn't itself influence them - that is, a mere shadow of the flame. Are you saying this is indeed the case? Or do you believe that consciousness can influence those chemical and electrical reactions to some degree?
If causal agency is denied, then it suggests that our actions don't truly make a difference and are simply predetermined outcomes of random processes. It also suggests our actions are not in any meaningful way consequential.
You stated actions depend on chance, probability, and randomness. In my view human actions still involve agency, choice, and intentionality. Anyway, your statement that "actions depend on chance, probability, and randomness" doesn't necessarily negate determinism. Randomness can be a deterministic process with unpredictable outcomes.
Saying our actions are consequential does not clear things up.
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Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
Sure. Have you seen a person who is unconscious doing anything?
Chemical and electric reactions make people conscious. They store memory as well. And a person's acts are based on memory of his/her experiences.
Consciousness cannot influence the chemical and electric reactions, it follows them.
If our actions are random, then they are not pre-determined. As I mentioned previously, our actions are consequence of our experiences.
We may think that they are earth-shaking but they do not bring about an iota of difference to how world works.
That is why prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis (21 known manifestations and many others according to Bahais) have failed to bring about any change.
muhammad_isa
Save Our Souls
That looks like a contradiction, to me..
On the one hand, you say that consciouness is brought about by chemical/electrical..
..then that what people do is dependent on their conscious memories..
..and then consciousness "follows the chemical/electrical reactions".
Which is it? You seem to be demeaning consciousness/memory, by saying they are only
chemical/electrical .. but they are more than that, imo.
If they were not, we would not THINK that they were .. we would SEE the "deception".
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
I do not see what is the problem in this statement.
Try to prove for us that they are more than that.
You think that way because your religious book, messenger of Allah and the clerics have dinned that into your mind.
I go by science.
muhammad_isa
Save Our Souls
No .. I think they are "more than that" in the same way as I think that "science" is not
the b-all-and-end-all.
i.e. science is just ONE of many academic pursuits
History is REAL, for example.
Ahanu
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No, I have not.
You said: "Consciousness cannot influence the chemical and electric reactions, it follows them."
That's not a perfect picture according to emerging research that suggests consciousness might have downward causation.
Meditation and mindfulness practices can lead to structural changes in the brain. Through focused attention and awareness, consciousness can change the physical makeup of the brain. Also, the placebo effect shows belief and expectation can start physiological changes in the body.
Or so you think.
Actions might just appear random, much like how a coin flip appears random because we don't perfectly know its initial conditions (e.g., the coin's precise spin and orientation), but whether or not we get heads or tails is all governed by physics that are deterministic. What you seem to be describing is a complex deterministic system without realizing it.
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Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
Human actions too are complex deterministic - there is no free-will. It just appears to be so.
No. They cannot change the structure or physical make up of brain or physiological changes in the body (like what? Growing horns?). This is woo.
Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
Like what is mentioned in Torah, Bible or Qur'an?
Ahanu
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This would mean our ability to self-reflect and intentionally act are but meaningless illusions. Talk about woo.
All you did here was present a false dichotomy by saying these changes in the body are dramatic ones or nothing at all. No, not in terms of dramatic changes like growing horns or shaping my brain into a donut (although I do love chocolate donuts every now and then), but in terms of enhancing neuroplasticity.
The position supported by research shows subtle but significant changes. Studies have shown that mindfulness training can increase grey matter density in brain regions associated with learning, memory, and more. But this should be impossible under your framework, shouldn't it?
If this is possible, then the same principle could be extended to a cosmic scale. A similar top-down causation by an intelligent entity is plausible, so I can see why you would want to avoid any form of top-down causation.
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Aupmanyav
Search, be your own guru.
We can act in whatever way we want, but it does not change the way things are.
I do not think these peripheral changes make any difference. We already have many times more than what we require. Think of 80 billion neurons.
There is no evidence of an intelligent entity and none too for sons, messengers and manifestations.
Progress? I feel blessed. My rose colored glasses on fleek. 5 years ago I died, due to the docs, nurses, caring folks and my family support I am not only alive but thriving. I am not as strong or as healthy as before the debacle....but I am 5 years older, and in those five years I have traveled more, camped more, got around more than the previous five.
Friends have hauled my butt tens of thousands of miles to events around the country, they have taken me to shoes, dinners, circuses, funerals, weddings, camping and site seeing. They have waited as I limped around, pushed me in wheelchairs and waited for me with my cane or walker. Public transport gets me around and caring folks fill the void. They say they like my solitude, my humor or my sagacity, they continue to say no problem and get me to doctors, therapy, swimming, whatever.
Totally anecdotal I realize, but I have always seen this world with its ups and downs as steadily climbing.....and I still do. When folks offer you rides for thousands of miles for weeks at a time...can anyone expect me to complain. He'll even you guys put up with me!
Friends have hauled my butt tens of thousands of miles to events around the country, they have taken me to shoes, dinners, circuses, funerals, weddings, camping and site seeing. They have waited as I limped around, pushed me in wheelchairs and waited for me with my cane or walker. Public transport gets me around and caring folks fill the void. They say they like my solitude, my humor or my sagacity, they continue to say no problem and get me to doctors, therapy, swimming, whatever.
Totally anecdotal I realize, but I have always seen this world with its ups and downs as steadily climbing.....and I still do. When folks offer you rides for thousands of miles for weeks at a time...can anyone expect me to complain. He'll even you guys put up with me!