One God, Many Paths

.. and NOT "Allah knows before we choose"
“There is not one among you to whom a seat in Paradise or Hell has not been allotted and about whom it has not been written down whether he would be an evil person or a blessed person.”
Related by Muslim

"When Allah creates us, He is well aware of all the intentions we will have, all the choices we will make, and all the things that we will do in our lives before we do them."
"Nothing happens except by Allah’s will. We are only able to do what He allows us to do and according to His wishes."
lā ḥawla wa lā quwwata illā billāh

To Allah belongs the dominion of the Heavens and the Earth. He creates what He wills (and plans).
Ash-Shurah 42:49-50
 
“There is not one among you to whom a seat in Paradise or Hell has not been allotted and about whom it has not been written down whether he would be an evil person or a blessed person.”
Related by Muslim
Sorry @Aupmanyav.
I edited your post in error, and do not have the permissions to revert it back.

Anyhow, this is in the Bahai forums .. and I've been recommended to quit this
conversation with you .. so bye for now. :)
 
Sorry @Aupmanyav.
I edited your post in error, and do not have the permissions to revert it back.

Anyhow, this is in the Bahai forums .. and I've been recommended to quit this
conversation with you .. so bye for now. :)
I've reverted the original post. :)

And this thread seems so generally focused on a general question, rather than specifically targeted at a Baha'i POV, that I'll move it to the Belief & Spirituality board for general comments.
 
Reflections ...

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

This is in accord with orthodox Trinitarian understanding.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.
No issue here – in Biblical language we can speak of 'ascent' and 'descent', but such are meant in the figurative sense, following a universal symbology, in which the human experience invariably designated as the Middle Realm. As stated above, God is not subject to contingent categories, such as define spatial or temporal conditions.

(The footnote to this paragraph refers to pantheism being implicitly rejected.)

Likewise, when St Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as God who "emptied himself ... being found in appearance as a human being, he reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross", again this is figurative language, as God cannot be 'emptied', nor undergo increase or decrease.

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections ...
Again, this distinction is preserved in the Christological doctrine of hypostatic union.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
This is in line with Trinitarian understanding, an understanding that goes back into Jewish theological understanding in the era immediately prior to the appearance of Christ.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
Again, quite orthodox.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
A mystical proposition is not necessarily illogical, according to its axioms.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.
This seems a thoroughly Trinitarian declaration!

(Where ellipses occur, the original text has been edited for brevity, hopefully without detriment to the meaning.)

+++

Addendum to the above – this is not to infer that the Baha'i promote a doctrine of the Trinity, simply that the Christian doctrine is not at odds with the Bahai teaching.
 
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John 10 :30* The Father and I are one.”

Jesus also prayed that we should be one, in the same way that he is one with the Father. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the father.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Can there be any greater definition of oneness?
 
Ah, the thread has been moved out of Bahai forums..

"When Allah creates us, He is well aware of all the intentions we will have, all the choices we will make, and all the things that we will do in our lives before we do them."
"Nothing happens except by Allah’s will. We are only able to do what He allows us to do and according to His wishes."
That article that you cited is contradictory.
It states that we have free choice of what we decide to do, and then states that
Allah SWT chooses what He will allow us to do.

I don't agree with that. I meet many Muslims who are apparently confused by this matter.
i.e. what has been "written" for each of us .. our destiny

In my opinion, the confusion arises through interpretation and lack of knowledge of classical Arabic.
"what is written" does not necessarily mean in a literal sense .. words in a book .. in means that
G-d is aware of what we will choose. How He knows, is the source of confusion, imo.

If I believed as your cited article states, I would agree with atheists, that it is completely illogical,
and one cannot both have free-will and a "predetermined" destiny, simultanoeously.

..but I don't believe that .. I think I have already explained what I believe. :)
..and I'm not alone in this .. better educated Muslims have figured it out.

That is, "predetermined" in this case means that G-d knows what we will freely choose due
to the nature of time (it is relative to the observer), and not that G-d chose for us.
 
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Reflections ...

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

This is in accord with orthodox Trinitarian understanding.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.
No issue here – in Biblical language we can speak of 'ascent' and 'descent', but such are meant in the figurative sense, following a universal symbology, in which the human experience invariably designated as the Middle Realm. As stated above, God is not subject to contingent categories, such as define spatial or temporal conditions.

(The footnote to this paragraph refers to pantheism being implicitly rejected.)

Likewise, when St Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as God who "emptied himself ... being found in appearance as a human being, he reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross", again this is figurative language, as God cannot be 'emptied', nor undergo increase or decrease.

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections ...
Again, this distinction is preserved in the Christological doctrine of hypostatic union.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
This is in line with Trinitarian understanding, an understanding that goes back into Jewish theological understanding in the era immediately prior to the appearance of Christ.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
Again, quite orthodox.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
A mystical proposition is not necessarily illogical, according to its axioms.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.
This seems a thoroughly Trinitarian declaration!

(Where ellipses occur, the original text has been edited for brevity, hopefully without detriment to the meaning.)

+++

Addendum to the above – this is not to infer that the Baha'i promote a doctrine of the Trinity, simply that the Christian doctrine is not at odds with the Bahai teaching.
Thank you for thay comparison. The only division I see Thomas is levels of attachment to the Names God has given us.

I personally see We do not loose Jesus when we embrace all the Names in the Oneness of God, as all the names and attributes become One in the Love of God, the desire to serve all others over self.

That is the hesitation I see many will face in the statement we previously discussed about embracing all that is good and holy in all faiths.

Regards Tony
 
John 10 :30* The Father and I are one.”

Jesus also prayed that we should be one, in the same way that he is one with the Father. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the father.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Can there be any greater definition of oneness?
I see all Names becoming One would promote a greater Oneness. We would embrace all the Names of God in the same manner.

Question for a Christian, are people able to embrace Muhammad in the same light as Jesus in the oneness with the Father?

Regards Tony
 
John 10 :30* The Father and I are one.”

Jesus also prayed that we should be one, in the same way that he is one with the Father. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the father.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Can there be any greater definition of oneness?
I guess the idea is that they are the same being or entity, but also distinct in a way that cannot be explained unambiguously.
 
Ah, Bahaiis differ on this from Jews, Christians and Muslims.

And those within Judaism, Christianity, and Islam also differ on this. Unlike first century Jews and Christians, not many today believe Satan inhabits the sublunar realm . . .

No issue here – in Biblical language we can speak of 'ascent' and 'descent', but such are meant in the figurative sense,

Time to clarify your view yet again.

There is an issue.

You stated elsewhere that language of descent and ascent is "not a case of literal or figurative, but literal and figurative," so why are you saying "such are meant in the figurative sense" alone here? Why do you continue to do this? The ancients in the Greco-Roman world did not think of it (spatial language like ascent and descent) merely in a figurative sense as you imply here in post #86. Paul, for example, clearly believes in astral immortality, so, when like-minded followers spoke of a finer substance ascending up, they meant that literally, not just figuratively.
 
That is passe. How about a thousand in one (male or female, or half male/half female)? :D

Ardhanareeswara-stotram-God-Shiva-and-Goddess-Parvati.jpg
Ardhanareeshwara
 
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