One God, Many Paths

.. and NOT "Allah knows before we choose"
“There is not one among you to whom a seat in Paradise or Hell has not been allotted and about whom it has not been written down whether he would be an evil person or a blessed person.”
Related by Muslim

"When Allah creates us, He is well aware of all the intentions we will have, all the choices we will make, and all the things that we will do in our lives before we do them."
"Nothing happens except by Allah’s will. We are only able to do what He allows us to do and according to His wishes."
lā ḥawla wa lā quwwata illā billāh

To Allah belongs the dominion of the Heavens and the Earth. He creates what He wills (and plans).
Ash-Shurah 42:49-50
 
“There is not one among you to whom a seat in Paradise or Hell has not been allotted and about whom it has not been written down whether he would be an evil person or a blessed person.”
Related by Muslim
Sorry @Aupmanyav.
I edited your post in error, and do not have the permissions to revert it back.

Anyhow, this is in the Bahai forums .. and I've been recommended to quit this
conversation with you .. so bye for now. :)
 
Sorry @Aupmanyav.
I edited your post in error, and do not have the permissions to revert it back.

Anyhow, this is in the Bahai forums .. and I've been recommended to quit this
conversation with you .. so bye for now. :)
I've reverted the original post. :)

And this thread seems so generally focused on a general question, rather than specifically targeted at a Baha'i POV, that I'll move it to the Belief & Spirituality board for general comments.
 
Reflections ...

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

This is in accord with orthodox Trinitarian understanding.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.
No issue here – in Biblical language we can speak of 'ascent' and 'descent', but such are meant in the figurative sense, following a universal symbology, in which the human experience invariably designated as the Middle Realm. As stated above, God is not subject to contingent categories, such as define spatial or temporal conditions.

(The footnote to this paragraph refers to pantheism being implicitly rejected.)

Likewise, when St Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as God who "emptied himself ... being found in appearance as a human being, he reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross", again this is figurative language, as God cannot be 'emptied', nor undergo increase or decrease.

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections ...
Again, this distinction is preserved in the Christological doctrine of hypostatic union.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
This is in line with Trinitarian understanding, an understanding that goes back into Jewish theological understanding in the era immediately prior to the appearance of Christ.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
Again, quite orthodox.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
A mystical proposition is not necessarily illogical, according to its axioms.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.
This seems a thoroughly Trinitarian declaration!

(Where ellipses occur, the original text has been edited for brevity, hopefully without detriment to the meaning.)

+++

Addendum to the above – this is not to infer that the Baha'i promote a doctrine of the Trinity, simply that the Christian doctrine is not at odds with the Bahai teaching.
 
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John 10 :30* The Father and I are one.”

Jesus also prayed that we should be one, in the same way that he is one with the Father. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the father.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Can there be any greater definition of oneness?
 
Ah, the thread has been moved out of Bahai forums..

"When Allah creates us, He is well aware of all the intentions we will have, all the choices we will make, and all the things that we will do in our lives before we do them."
"Nothing happens except by Allah’s will. We are only able to do what He allows us to do and according to His wishes."
That article that you cited is contradictory.
It states that we have free choice of what we decide to do, and then states that
Allah SWT chooses what He will allow us to do.

I don't agree with that. I meet many Muslims who are apparently confused by this matter.
i.e. what has been "written" for each of us .. our destiny

In my opinion, the confusion arises through interpretation and lack of knowledge of classical Arabic.
"what is written" does not necessarily mean in a literal sense .. words in a book .. in means that
G-d is aware of what we will choose. How He knows, is the source of confusion, imo.

If I believed as your cited article states, I would agree with atheists, that it is completely illogical,
and one cannot both have free-will and a "predetermined" destiny, simultanoeously.

..but I don't believe that .. I think I have already explained what I believe. :)
..and I'm not alone in this .. better educated Muslims have figured it out.

That is, "predetermined" in this case means that G-d knows what we will freely choose due
to the nature of time (it is relative to the observer), and not that G-d chose for us.
 
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Reflections ...

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

This is in accord with orthodox Trinitarian understanding.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.
No issue here – in Biblical language we can speak of 'ascent' and 'descent', but such are meant in the figurative sense, following a universal symbology, in which the human experience invariably designated as the Middle Realm. As stated above, God is not subject to contingent categories, such as define spatial or temporal conditions.

(The footnote to this paragraph refers to pantheism being implicitly rejected.)

Likewise, when St Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as God who "emptied himself ... being found in appearance as a human being, he reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross", again this is figurative language, as God cannot be 'emptied', nor undergo increase or decrease.

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections ...
Again, this distinction is preserved in the Christological doctrine of hypostatic union.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
This is in line with Trinitarian understanding, an understanding that goes back into Jewish theological understanding in the era immediately prior to the appearance of Christ.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
Again, quite orthodox.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
A mystical proposition is not necessarily illogical, according to its axioms.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.
This seems a thoroughly Trinitarian declaration!

(Where ellipses occur, the original text has been edited for brevity, hopefully without detriment to the meaning.)

+++

Addendum to the above – this is not to infer that the Baha'i promote a doctrine of the Trinity, simply that the Christian doctrine is not at odds with the Bahai teaching.
Thank you for thay comparison. The only division I see Thomas is levels of attachment to the Names God has given us.

I personally see We do not loose Jesus when we embrace all the Names in the Oneness of God, as all the names and attributes become One in the Love of God, the desire to serve all others over self.

That is the hesitation I see many will face in the statement we previously discussed about embracing all that is good and holy in all faiths.

Regards Tony
 
John 10 :30* The Father and I are one.”

Jesus also prayed that we should be one, in the same way that he is one with the Father. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the father.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Can there be any greater definition of oneness?
I see all Names becoming One would promote a greater Oneness. We would embrace all the Names of God in the same manner.

Question for a Christian, are people able to embrace Muhammad in the same light as Jesus in the oneness with the Father?

Regards Tony
 
John 10 :30* The Father and I are one.”

Jesus also prayed that we should be one, in the same way that he is one with the Father. Could the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the father.

The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself.
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself.

Can there be any greater definition of oneness?
I guess the idea is that they are the same being or entity, but also distinct in a way that cannot be explained unambiguously.
 
Ah, Bahaiis differ on this from Jews, Christians and Muslims.

And those within Judaism, Christianity, and Islam also differ on this. Unlike first century Jews and Christians, not many today believe Satan inhabits the sublunar realm . . .

No issue here – in Biblical language we can speak of 'ascent' and 'descent', but such are meant in the figurative sense,

Time to clarify your view yet again.

There is an issue.

You stated elsewhere that language of descent and ascent is "not a case of literal or figurative, but literal and figurative," so why are you saying "such are meant in the figurative sense" alone here? Why do you continue to do this? The ancients in the Greco-Roman world did not think of it (spatial language like ascent and descent) merely in a figurative sense as you imply here in post #86. Paul, for example, clearly believes in astral immortality, so, when like-minded followers spoke of a finer substance ascending up, they meant that literally, not just figuratively.
 
That is passe. How about a thousand in one (male or female, or half male/half female)? :D

Ardhanareeswara-stotram-God-Shiva-and-Goddess-Parvati.jpg
Ardhanareeshwara
 
That is, "predetermined" in this case means that G-d knows what we will freely choose due
to the nature of time (it is relative to the observer), and not that G-d chose for us.
Exactly ... it's a proper understanding of omniscience.
 
Thank you for thay comparison. The only division I see Thomas is levels of attachment to the Names God has given us.
I would offer this:
"The second Glad-Tidings
It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the daystar of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds."

"The second Ṭaráz
is to consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship, to proclaim that which the Speaker on Sinai hath set forth and to observe fairness in all matters.

They that are endued with sincerity and faithfulness should associate with all the peoples and kindreds of the earth with joy and radiance, inasmuch as consorting with people hath promoted and will continue to promote unity and concord, which in turn are conducive to the maintenance of order in the world and to the regeneration of nations. Blessed are such as hold fast to the cord of kindliness and tender mercy and are free from animosity and hatred.
(excerpts from Tablets of Baha'u'llah)

I do not see that the Baha'i requires the believers in other faiths to detach from their beliefs – rather a true unity is in that 'spirit of fellowship'?
 
I see all Names becoming One would promote a greater Oneness. We would embrace all the Names of God in the same manner.
All names become One in the transcendent, but not here on earth – in some religions there is no 'name' as such – the Dao, for instance.

" ... the suggestion that all of the world’s great religions are equally valid in nature and origin is stubbornly resisted by entrenched patterns of sectarian thought... "
(Universal House of Justice, To The World’s Religious Leaders, paragraph 10)
If such is true – that all religions are equally valid in nature and origin, then so to are all the Names associated with those religions.

To pick a name from those religions as above all would distort that unity and create an artificial hierarchy – however, as I understand it, that is not how the Baha'i see themselves:
"We feel a responsibility, as the governing council of one of the world religions ..." (emphasis mine).
(Universal House of Justice, To The World’s Religious Leaders, paragraph 1)

So we might look for an all-embracing name, but I think that will engage us at the level of a Babel-type folly – Moses is Moses, he is not Abraham or John the Baptist or Siddhartha Gautama – you cannot roll all the persons into one, without losing their particular natures or identities, while you can assert that the source of or from which they speak originates in the One, but you cannot confound the Source with its Manifestation, that would be a categorical error – same with names.
 
Question for a Christian, are people able to embrace Muhammad in the same light as Jesus in the oneness with the Father?

When we talk about the unity of religions, which I regard as a transcendent unity, as the differences and distinctions that stand here in the phenomenal world are real, unavoidable and inescapable, according to the nature of this world, we have to face the issue not just of 'religions' but also with the nature of human knowing and this unity's intelligibility.

When we name things, we conceptualize. Do our names correspond exactly to the things we seek to represent by them?

+++

Too often and too easily we confuse God with his our own thoughts, our own concepts, of God.

In Islam there are the Ninety-Nine Names – The Beneficent, The Merciful, The Eternal, and so forth – but Islam is at pains to make clear that these names refer to the attributes of Allah (The God), and no one attribute, nor even all of them, suffices to sum up, as it were, the Divine.

(The is a sc-fi short story by Arthur C Clark, the title I forget, and the story, as I recall it, is about someone who makes a final, complete and entire list of all the Names of God. Having closed the cover on the last and final entry, he looks out onto the night sky to see the stars going out, one by one.)

Names of God are cataphatic descriptions of the divine essence. St Gregory of Nyssa allows that these names are born from what we can predicate of the Divine, but the Divine infinity and simplicity means that all attributes are always subject to apophatic review or qualification – neti-neti, 'not this, not that'.

+++

To follow a religion, to be a believer, to hold a faith, is to commit to a particular faith and thereby think in terms of a particular divine designation as the source of that expression. One cannot hold every faith without stumbling into a welter of confusions and contradictions.

As a Christian, I identify with Jesus Christ as the manifestation of the Logos within whom subsists all creation, and all participates in Him.

That is to say, my universality and vision of unity is founded on my Christology. St Maximus teaches Christ the Logos subsists in and as the logos of every creature, just as the Spirit is the true pneuma breathing forth the rational soul into every being and the cosmos as a whole.

There is nothing then to finally encounter, on a Christian read of reality, than Christ:
"For as yet we see by way of a mirror, in an enigma, but then face to face; as yet I know partially, but then I shall know fully, just as I have been fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12) and "Beloved ones, now we are children of God, and what we shall be has not yet become apparent. We know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

That my Christian universalism co-exists with other specific universalisms does not depreciate its value – rather, I would say that my particular inclination is a deeply personal response to the mystery of things I’ve encountered and learned. Furthermore I would say that my inclination, my vocation, my calling, is my response to that call in and from the very depths of my being.

Your mileage may vary, as the saying goes. Each must answer as they are called.

I am a monotheist. I am a monogamist, but that does not mean I do not love others.
 
Question for a Christian, are people able to embrace Muhammad in the same light as Jesus in the oneness with the Father?
Regards Tony
The question is: if a Christian does not embrace (another faith), but lives in peace and harmony with (another faith), does it matter?

"You have heard that it has been said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and shall hate your enemy’ – Whereas I tell you, love your enemies and speak well of those who revile you, be benevolent to those who hate you and pray for those who abuse and persecute you; in this way you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, for he makes his sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and sends rain upon the just and the unjust. For if you love only those who love you, what recompense do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing that is extraordinary? Do not even the gentiles do the same? So be perfect, as your heavenly Father
is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)

The question rather is, can one embrace all, believer and non-believer, in the same light as Jesus in the oneness with the Father?
 
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