If you meet Eckhart on the road ...

Thomas

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This post comes with a warning – if your sensibilities are easily offended, then I'm not talking to you.

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The title is from the words of Linji Yixuan, the 9th century sage of the Hongzhou school of Chan (Zen) Buddhism:
"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

There are numerous commentaries on the meaning of this statement, but mine would be, if you come across any of the many and popular assertions about the Dominican monk and speculative mystic Meister Eckhart and his teachings – then kill them – because they are most probably not only wrong, but offer such a distorted view of where the man was coming from as to lead the inquirer astray.

I write this in reference to a link provided by @TheLightWithin.

The first is: Why a 14th-century mystic appeals to today’s ‘spiritual but not religious’ Americans
An early statement I found a bit flakey:
"Seven centuries ago, Eckhart embraced meditation and what is now called mindfulness."
Did he though? 'Mindfulness' evokes a lot of ideas in the public consciousness, but I doubt any of them match what Eckhart was doing. Rather, he was proposing an advanced stages of Lectio Divina, or perhaps the better-known Centering Prayer.

"Although he never questioned any of the doctrines of the Catholic Church, Eckhart’s preaching eventually resulted in an official investigation and papal condemnation."
This latter is something of a 'badge of honour' in our anti-institutional, a-dogmatic, a-doctrinal, self-oriented culture, but it needs be understood in context.

The impetus behind the accusation was no doubt political and professional jealousy, but there was a pastoral element of concern that, if his most profound teachings were bandied about among the unschooled laity, they would get the wrong impression, and draw the wrong conclusion. History, and the plethora of guff on social media channels lionising Eckhart today, has done just what was feared ...

The article validates itself towards the end when it points out:
"Eckhart’s teachings (are) as part of a long and ancient Christian contemplative tradition ... the apostle Paul, Augustine and Hildegard of Bingen."
(I would add some glaring omissions: St John, St Denys (the pseudoAreopagite), Maximus the Confessor, Johannes Scottus Eriugena.)

"Eckhart ... did not preach an individualistic, isolated kind of personal enlightenment, nor did he reject as much of his own faith tradition as many modern spiritual but not religious are wont to do."

Meister Eckhart has some important lessons for those of us trapped amid today’s materialism and selfishness, but understanding any spiritual guide – especially one as obscure as Eckhart – requires a deeper understanding of the context."

Eckhart was a high-ranking administrator for his order, with a direct commission from, and only answerable to, the head of the Dominican Order, reforming those religious houses that had drifted into error. He was twice elected as Magister at the University of Paris, with only one other Magister being invited for a second term, Thomas Aquinas – so the idea of Eckhart teaching at odds with the Church and his Order is a nonsense – he was utterly orthodox in the basics of the Faith.

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OK ... well I decided to cut this short here, so not as challenging as I might have been ...
 
This post comes with a warning – if your sensibilities are easily offended, then I'm definitely not talking to you.


Opening question:
"Is Meister Eckhart a Christian? No."
(My response echoed Roy Kent in Ted Lasso when he chaired the press conference: "What a stupid ••••••• question." The actual answer, btw, is 'yes')

"... at least not if we're talking about your average lay person, and we insist upon certain elements belonging to Christianity and it's just not Christian if we don't have those elements. In other words the way that your average person defines Christianity ... "
OK – so as a PhD is philosophy you must see you're setting a heavyweight theologian and speculative mystic against the average (American) lay Christian – I'm not sure of the term for that order of nonsense, but there must be one.

It might come as some surprise to Prof Johnson, but what the 'average lay person' thinks does not define Christianity – if that were true, then there are so many lay opinions about what constitutes Christianity and what doesn't that Christianity would actually vanish altogether.

The question more correctly stated might be, "Is Meister Eckhart a Christian in the Catholic sense (his being a Catholic), according to the opinion of the Church, as defined in the Catechism and her Dogmatic Constitutions?

This is an unintelligent way to start a debate ... let us go on ... he launches into a raft of questions:
"... so if you walk up to your, you know, average person on the street and ask them, you know, do you have to have the historical Christ being significant, uh, you know, God become flesh, for Christianity? Do you have to have ... prayer ... a certain notion of Faith ... so historical Christ, Faith, prayer ... fasting? ... Chastity? ... hell? ... Heaven? ... an afterlife for the individual soul?"

To which his answer is no – but to someone who is familiar with Eckhart's Dominican heritage, who is familiar with Christian apophatic theology, then the answer is emphatically yes, because all that is necessary to get you to where you need to be.

Which is what everyone conveniently overlooks.

Eckhart's mystagogy always points beyond the form, but it is that ineffable and numinous 'beyondness' that validates and substantiates the form – without the form, the fruit is unattainable. It's Eckhart's utter embodiment of the form that allows him to access the essence.
 
Where Clint Johnson gets it wrong.

In The Darkness of God: Negativity in Christian Mysticism, Denys Turner asserts that our contemporary ideas of what constitutes "mysticism" have tended to focus on a kind of experientialism that would seem very foreign to those we classify as mystical theologians.

In short, I'm not sure Johnson understands Christian mysticism, nor grasps Christian esoterism – if such is even relevant to his discussion (and if he understood mysticism better, it's probably not).

What he tried to do above is set the 'articles of faith' – a belief in the Incarnate Christ, Prayer, Sacraments, Creeds, Dogmas, and so on, as ends in themselves of the Christian life, which they are not, and offering a superficial reading of Eckhart suggesting he'd abandoned his faith of old to enter some empyrean realm.

Rather, the depositum fidei (the 'Deposit of Faith' comprising Scripture and Tradition) form a pattern of affirmations and negations which prepare the believer for what lies beyond. In mystical terms, these forms are the foundations, the thrones upon and in which the Formless sits.

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Meister Eckhart urged his audience to let go of the outward content of the liturgical and pietistic forms. To concentrate on these too intently is to get trapped in them, closing off opportunities for divine encounter that move beyond our words.

Eckhart described those who, "possessively attached to prayer, to fasting, to vigils, and to all kinds of exterior exercises and penances" as "married." (Regarding the Liturgy, its worth remembering that he would have delivered his sermons as part of the celebration of the Mass.)

Those who have these 'attachments' prevent their freedom to wait upon God and wait for what God will do in them.

In his writings:
Counsel 20. Of the Body of our Lord: how one should often receive it, and with what manner and devotion
Whoever would gladly receive the Body of our Lord ought not to wait until he discovers certain emotions or sensations in himself, or until his inwardness and devotion are great; but he ought to make sure that he has the proper will and intention. You should not attach such importance to what you feel; rather, consider important what you love and what you intend.

The man who freely wants and is able to go to our Lord should as the first condition have a conscience free from every reproach of sin. The second condition is that his will be turned to God, that he intends nothing and delights in nothing except in God and what is wholly godly, and that everything should displease him that is unlike God."

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Eckhart's conception of the 'birth' of God in the soul does not abolish the Sacrament of the Eucharist, but nor does he try to explain the dogma of the transubstantiation according to the substance-accidence schema of Aristotelian physics.

Instead, he treats the Eucharist as the place where the divine image at the heart of all created being becomes evident.

Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is not of a ‘merely’ sacramental nature, but as a corollary of his doctrine of creation, in which in the ground of all beings dwells the real and immanent Divine Presence as the source and origin of and in all things.

The reception of Holy Communion by the faithful is the engagement in a process of assimilation and transformation – not merely into a perfect 'mirror' of the Divine, but into an active spiritual eye, capable of responding to the loving gaze of the Divine Intellect.

Thus the Eucharist is no longer a place where the divine presence is mysteriously hidden but, on the contrary, a place where this presence becomes most evident in order to reveal the whole world as transparent to God.
(from the abstract of Transforming Vision. Meister Eckhart's Speculative Interpretation of the Real Presence in the Eucharist Martina Roesner)
 
Did Christianity copy Mithraism? Parallels between Jesus and Mithras

This is an ill-informed spouting of once-popular but entirely fictitious assertion. The man knows nothing about what he's talking about. Here's an example of someone who might teach philosophy, and applies what he knows to something he knows nothing about.

He says:
Mithras we're told was born on December 25th on the winter solstice ...
Date of birth unknown, but in the Roman world Mithras was paralleled with the Sun God ... so it was a feast-day, not a birth-day.

his followers participate in a communion
it's a feast, not a communion.

the communion consists of wine and bread the bread ...
Er ... staples of the diet? Plus much fruit, and notably cherries in one location, I think ...

is stamped with little crosses the wine is spiked with a certain mushroom that mushroom is bright red and grows beneath evergreen trees
I think thus is entirely fictional?

... further they engage in baptism specifically meant to wash away sins
No they don't.

there is a strong eschatology there where there's an emphasis on the final judgment ...
Well any mystery cult is about birth/rebirth, descent and return ... how strong it was, when we have almost no evidence ...

... there's also a virgin birth ...
No there's not. Mithras sprang fully formed from a rock with a knife in one hand and a torch in the other.

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This continues the long-outdated idea that Christianity borrowed from Mithraism, or that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity, or that there were elements common to both.

Assimilation did go on, but like everything else, it's a lot more sophisticated than he assumes, so he makes ill-advised and erroneous assumptions.

Check the Encyclopedia Iranica, which, among other things, will point out there's no written accounts and nothing very certain at all about the content and practice of a belief that rose in Persia (Iran) and spread west to Rome where it was subsumed among the Roman Mystery Cults.
 
Sorry to be so short ... I'm just fed up with the plethora of YouTube influencers spreading so much effluent ... although why I should be surprised, I don't really know.
 
To break your monologue:
I never listened to Clint whatshisname, but I read Meister Eckhard ( in carefully modernised German) and I see in him an excellent Muslim scholar in the line and adding to the tradition of Ibn Hanbal, Al Ghazzali and Rumi.
I know his background is Christian and I perceive it reading his works, but those who really seek for the fulfillment of faith converge to a point where the background doesn't matter any more.
 
Dan McClellan, again
There you go ... a nugget of gold in all the dross! 🤣 Indeed, he's more circumspect than I was.

As for Stephen Fry, yes, the tv show 'QI' pokes fun at a fair few assumptions, and I was aghast when they got this so very wrong ...

I delight in "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" although she-who-must-be-obeyed tells me sympathetically that it's all 'boys humour' and not nearly so funny as I clearly think it is. Then again, she can't stand Alan Partridge, which just goes to show that the female brain is nothing like the male brain at all!

For Stephen Fry, catch 'Blackadder' (among tons of other stuff – he's a writer as well as performer).

For Hugh Laurie, you have 'House' (or listen to his band). He speaks with an American accent, so you won't need subtitles!
 
As I see it, if anyone finds anything that improves any part of their attitude or life or motivates them to be a better more empathetic and caring person...from someone they met on the road I wouldn't kill them.
 
Yeah, but to be fair, that's not what Linji Yixuan is talking about ...
 
Was Jesus Christian? No. He was a Jew, he didn't preach dogma but spiritual perfection. Knowing that we cannot reach it, he preached that the failure of those who try will be forgiven, encouraging us to try and try again.
The image of this is the Kingdom of God as opposed to "this world".
In my last post, I pointed out the Islamic path through the history that preceded Meister Eckart.
Ibn Hanbal was an ascetic who was eager to do everything in accordance with God and leave all that might distract him. Unfortunately, his teachings have become a school of fiqh that tends to oblige everyone to do alike. But it is the other way around: if you found pleasure in following God's Will, you have no interest in many other things.
Al-Ghazzali was a very dogmatic scholar until he made a retreat for 10 years, writing his major book that starts with a long chapter of duties and ends with a short but wise chapter about the way to reach unity with God.
Rumi has studied the Quran and the hadith and wrote a lot of scholarly work, but finally said: love God and be in His love, and you will be filled with love. If you do so, you need not care for the observation of laws and duties because you will do His Will.
That's essentially what Meister Eckart taught: Be one with God, and you will leave all that inhibits you.
Was he a Christian? A Muslim? A Buddhist?
It doesn't matter any more.
 
Was Jesus Christian? No.
Well, he was the living embodiment of a practice that is identified as Christian.

He was a Jew...
But he did challenge contemporary Jewish practices and raised eyebrows by so doing.

... he didn't preach dogma but spiritual perfection...
To be fair, he did both. Spiritual perfection is according to the dogmas, some of which originate with Him.

Knowing that we cannot reach it, he preached that the failure of those who try will be forgiven, encouraging us to try and try again.
Well He would never preach something he knew to be impossible ... that would be cruel.

The image of this is the Kingdom of God as opposed to "this world".
Yep.

In my last post, I pointed out the Islamic path through the history that preceded Meister Eckart.
But Eckhart's path was essentially Christian.

Really, all paths start at the same place – the human – and end at the same place – the divine – so there must surely be correspondences.

It doesn't matter any more.
No ... but if we wish to follow the path, we have to find a path and adhere to it as they did.
 
OP: If you meet Eckhart on the road ...
I would not know who he is. But my belief is completely different. I will not have any problem in shaking hands with him, but would not engage in any discussion.
 
Well, he was the living embodiment of a practice that is identified as Christian.
or, he taught and showed what those who follow him, Christians, should do or aim at.
But he did challenge contemporary Jewish practices and raised eyebrows by so doing.
That's why I'm saying that he didn't preach dogma.
To be fair, he did both. Spiritual perfection is according to the dogmas, some of which originate with Him.
Or shouldn't it be the other way around, that the teachings should guide to spiritual perfection?
It seems that you have a more positive notion of the word "dogma" than I. I tend to associate with it an authoritarian decree, a man-made add-on to the prophetic Word, but, of course, it originally just means "teaching".
Well He would never preach something he knew to be impossible ... that would be cruel.
Nobody is perfect. It would have been cruel if he taught that everyone who failed would be condemned but he didn't.
But Eckhart's path was essentially Christian.
I don't deny this. However, in this rather short period of time, there was a good exchange between the religions. Christian "Mysticism" was for sure influenced by Sufism, and the Sufi have probably been influenced by Afghan Buddhists who had to convert to Islam. Rumi was from Afghanistan, many generations after the conquest, but only one generation older than Eckhart. It's not an incidence that he has been called "Meister", "Master", and Rumi was called "Mawlana", which is Arabic for "unser Meister", "our master"

Really, all paths start at the same place – the human – and end at the same place – the divine – so there must surely be correspondences.
No ... but if we wish to follow the path, we have to find a path and adhere to it as they did.
Yep :)
 
That's why I'm saying that he didn't preach dogma.
LOL, he was pretty dogmatic about repentance!

Or shouldn't it be the other way around, that the teachings should guide to spiritual perfection?
Yes they should, but those perfections are according to their principles? I suppose there could be a pushme - pullyou debate here...

It seems that you have a more positive notion of the word "dogma" than I.
I try to use it in its proper sense, rather than the somewhat vague pejorative sense.

Jesus was often quite 'dogmatic' in the authoritarian sense, too. He took no prisoners when castigating those who saw themselves as superior. He laid down certain laws, He issued His own commandments – albeit in line with Judaism.

I tend to associate with it an authoritarian decree, a man-made add-on to the prophetic Word, but, of course, it originally just means "teaching".
Quite. But authoritarian decrees do have their place – it's up to us to challenge when the seem unjust.

Nobody is perfect. It would have been cruel if he taught that everyone who failed would be condemned but he didn't.
Oh, for sure. I'm a Universalist. And we are assured the saints achieved a level of whatever it is we wish to call it ... and there are many more saints without number, not merely those who are named.

I don't deny this. However, in this rather short period of time, there was a good exchange between the religions.
Oh, for sure.

Christian "Mysticism" was for sure influenced by Sufism, and the Sufi have probably been influenced by Afghan Buddhists who had to convert to Islam. Rumi was from Afghanistan, many generations after the conquest, but only one generation older than Eckhart. It's not an incidence that he has been called "Meister", "Master", and Rumi was called "Mawlana", which is Arabic for "unser Meister", "our master"
I would be interesting in discussing how and where that influence is seen, as 'Christian mysticism' is well rooted in Jewish mystical speculation and the insights of Platonic Philosophy, in the writings of St Paul and St John particularly. No doubt there was dialogue, but there are other significant players in his formative influences.

There is a view that traces the pre-Islamic roots of Sufism to the Desert Fathers & Mothers in Egypt in the early Christian centuries – a common etymology of the term Sufi is from the word "Ṣūf" means 'wool', because the ascetics often wore coarse woolen clothes, as did the Desert Monastics, but I think I prefer the idea the word derives from the word for 'wisdom', but I have no Arabic, so ...

Inayat Khan (1882-1927), one of those responsible for the transmission of Sufism in the West, saw a universality in his "message of spiritual liberty", saying: "Every age of the world has seen awakened souls, and as it is impossible to limit wisdom to any one period or place, so it is impossible to date the origin of Sufism."
 
For Hugh Laurie, you have 'House' (or listen to his band). He speaks with an American accent, so you won't need subtitles!
🤣
Pretty convincing American accent. Sounded fine to me. Sometimes people tried to pick it apart, but the character's backstory was that he was an Army brat so I think any inconsistencies could be explained that way. British actors often do really good general American accents and only have trouble with specific regional accents (most Americans can't really fake another regional accent convincingly for long)
 
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