Count down to all out war in the Middle Eeast?

[Quahom1]

Let's see,

Iraq is struggling with its new government and insurgents and others who do not want it to succeed, Lebanon is rallying for Syria to get out of their homeland, Turkey still has its eye on the Khurds of Northern Iraq, Hamas refuses to obey the New Palistinian Government, rockets and mortars are still being fired at Israel, President Bush is drumming a similar war beat towards Syria and Iran, that sounded before the Iraq war began, Iran is attempting to build the bomb, and now this just released:

Iran is believed to be actively attempting to infiltrate the Iraqi government at all levels.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6999382/site/newsweek/

Personal preferences aside, do you see the middle east coming to peace first, going to all out war, or something in between? Regardless of which direction it goes, who are the key players, what are the stakes, and what do you think they hope to get out of it, in the end?

v/r

Q

 

[iBrian]

From what I've read over the past few years, the US has real plans for the Middle East, namely in democratising it to help stabilise the region. However, if Iran develops nuclear power then it can serve as a very real obstruction to US plans.

The key pivot to all Middle East unrest is the Palestinian issue - and now with Arafat gone there's real promise of developments on this issue. Abbas is proving a strong figure already, and even if it's never going to be the case of being able to get Hamas and Islamic Jihad entirely on board, the fact that he apparently has them pacified to any degree is a step towards success.

Also, we just had a new Palestinian cabinet agreed - a Palestinian government run according to ability and experience, rather than fat hands to dip in the cash:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4293937.stm

There is progress in the Middle East - but the ill-planned Iraq War is going to rumble on in its consequences.

As for Syria - it's always been a problem area, but Assad junior was presented by the BBC a while back as a one of the more decent guys, but behind the reigns of a country whose main workhorses are still his old bad dad's colleagues.

Don't forget as well that Libya is now in the international fold. I figure that's got to be good news, too, if a little out the way.

 

[Sacredstar]

It will be interesting to view the bigger picture unfold as opposing forces do battle to rule, the middle east certainly appear to be holding all the ace cards unless oil runs out, the US is really the puppet until such time as there is an alternative energy source.

 

[mirrorinthefog]

There was a time when I would be deeply concerned, but I could seriously care less right now. Things are on a downward spiral whether we discuss it to death or not, and excuses presented for war are rarely the motives for them.
So, who cares, we all know who will reap the profits from waging war on the world and who won't. We, the regular folks who don't make decisions, just get stuck with the gas bills and the death tolls.

 

[Quahom1]

In this particular thread, I am asking for logical thought, not emotional feelings. Consider this like a "war college" class. Pros, cons, alternatives, solutions, backed by fact not feeling. Guess I didn't make that clear, so I'm doing so now.


No one's thoughts are wrong or right you see, just different, and enlightening perhaps (expected).

v/r

Q

 

[mirrorinthefog]

The fact that war is profitable to certain factions, and severely detrimental to the rest, is a fact.

Still, speculation on the problem will do little for the outcome, regardless of where it leads. That is what I meant to say, though obviously I wasn't "clear" either.

Do I need a bibliography and a 500 word essay at the end of each post to prove a point?

However, if my answer isn't to your standards and doesn't satisfy you, sir, please by all means contact the administrator and have it removed. I'm not out to offend anyone's views on anything, but please, don't use that as an excuse to lecture me.

You may have started the board, but I don't think that gives you a right to dictate my answers.

 

[Quahom1]

The fact that war is profitable to certain factions, and severely detrimental to the rest, is a fact.

Still, speculation on the problem will do little for the outcome, regardless of where it leads. That is what I meant to say, though obviously I wasn't "clear" either.

Do I need a bibliography and a 500 word essay at the end of each post to prove a point?

However, if my answer isn't to your standards and doesn't satisfy you, sir, please by all means contact the administrator and have it removed. I'm not out to offend anyone's views on anything, but please, don't use that as an excuse to lecture me.

You may have started the board, but I don't think that gives you a right to dictate my answers.

Are you finished being angry? If I say I apologise, will you accept it? And after, should you choose, will you continue with your original thought?

I am looking for facts and thoughts to back those facts. I'm asking you to become a tactition. Cold fact, no feeling. Numbers and results and such.

If this, then that, if that then this kind of thing...do you understand me now?

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

I think that the US is in error to propose the installation of a democratic government in Iraq. The US has seriously underestimated the arab people and their culture. By nature of their religion democracy will be difficult. From what I know government is still very interweaved with religion. Religious views and democracy don't go hand in hand as we see here in the USA>

I have seen good come out of a bad situation before but this one is too big. The long term ramifications could be devastating. It will take years for this to iron itself out and I don't see an end to insurgent attacks. Those aren't just Iraquis that are attacking they are coming in from neigboring countries and they are putting aside their differences to fight for a common cause which they see as the US.

 

[Quahom1]

I think that the US is in error to propose the installation of a democratic government in Iraq. The US has seriously underestimated the arab people and their culture. By nature of their religion democracy will be difficult. From what I know government is still very interweaved with religion. Religious views and democracy don't go hand in hand as we see here in the USA>

I have seen good come out of a bad situation before but this one is too big. The long term ramifications could be devastating. It will take years for this to iron itself out and I don't see an end to insurgent attacks. Those aren't just Iraquis that are attacking they are coming in from neigboring countries and they are putting aside their differences to fight for a common cause which they see as the US.

Good Evening Didymus,

Nothing is too big for God/Allah to handle. Don't forget who is watching over all of this, lest you lose sight of yourself (and the rest of us as well).

The Father will preside, is presiding. Nothing can stop God...not even man.

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

i think there is way more going on than meets the eye all the way around. Politics are my least favorite subject, but I thought I'd give Q a run for his money.

Based on facts? I dont think the facts we hear, will ever be the truth until years down the road. I look at there faces and I see anger and greed beyond the smiling stiff neck. Here and there.
Everyone wants to be the King of the blue ball in the sky.
I do think this could be the countdown Q. It is bigger than what people realize. There is something different about the whole spirit of battle in this one.
To tell you the honest truth, I dont think most of them even realize what they are doing. But someone out there with power and big money knows.

I like the thought of masses of yellow ribbons on oak trees this spring

Those aren't just Iraquis that are attacking they are coming in from neigboring countries and they are putting aside their differences to fight for a common cause which they see as the US.

I believe this is good insight. Allies, is just another word for who can we trust.
I dont think the U.S. (or any nation) is too big to be swallowed.

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Bandit

I like the thought of masses of yellow ribbons on oak trees this spring (or any nation) is too big to be swallowed.

Beautiful.

Dear Q

Well GOD as allowed civilisations to be wiped out before and I am sure GOD will allow it again, we co-create destruction and GOD allows us to use our free will to do it with our own hands.

So I pray that people will wake up, take responsible action and change the face of humanity by standing up and being counted. My father taught me that the power is with the people when united we stand.

When is 'enough destruction enough'?

Love beyond measure

Kim xxx

 

[Quahom1]

Good Evening Didymus,

Nothing is too big for God/Allah to handle. Don't forget who is watching over all of this, lest you lose sight of yourself (and the rest of us as well).

The Father will preside, is presiding. Nothing can stop God...not even man.

v/r

Q

Sorry Did,

I broke my own rule. I'll stick to facts and figures.

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

Actually you are right, nothing is too big for God. This situation is grave right now but any outcome is possible. Yaya con Dios!

 

[Friend]

I think that the US is in error to propose the installation of a democratic government in Iraq. The US has seriously underestimated the arab people and their culture. By nature of their religion democracy will be difficult. From what I know government is still very interweaved with religion. Religious views and democracy don't go hand in hand as we see here in the USA>

.

Salaam

Comments

- Islam doesn't contradict the Democracy ,Actually Islam call to democracy from it's beginning , there are an Islamic principle called " Al Shura " which aims to discuss People's affairs and to take the suitable decisions collectively .​

The Arabic regimes doesn't represent any religious perspective …. These regimes was supported by USA regime in the 20th century ( during the cold war )in that political phase the USA utility require to support these regimes , but now I think that the new plans of America ( What America called the new world ) to control the world demands new requirements for these Arabic regimes .​

- The new world of the American regime have two directions ,the first one to dominate the Oil resources around the world and prevent any possible future power to benefit from these resources like China or old EU (As Bush said )….. ,and the other direction is to applied something like the Marshal plan which was used to some Europe countries after War II against socialism ….., They call to political Reforms in the Middle east countries and promote American life style to be sure that the first step of the New World is under their control . ​

-What American regime believe now ,the Economy is important variable to lead the world in the future, So the economic competition between America and it's first economic enemy ( China ) require certain changes …., and we know without any doubt that Oil is the base of any economic power .​

- we saw after each political phase changes and rearrangement of the powers in the world … and after the finishing of the cold war we saw many changes like the formation of the EU ,the armament attitude of Iran ,Pakistan ,India, North Korea ….​

( we should remember that the Nuclear Technology of what was called the Soviets Union or RSSA transmitted to many countries) ,and this is another important reason behind the political behaviors of American regime toward the middle east area the military bases in the gulf states and Iraq will help to meet this new dangerous and to make the political situations in Asia under their control.​

​

So ,I think we will see many dramatic political Movements in the Middle east region.

 

[mirrorinthefog]

Are you finished being angry? If I say I apologise, will you accept it? And after, should you choose, will you continue with your original thought?

I am looking for facts and thoughts to back those facts. I'm asking you to become a tactition. Cold fact, no feeling. Numbers and results and such.

If this, then that, if that then this kind of thing...do you understand me now?

v/r

Q

I don't want an apology, and I'm not out to obstruct this board.

I understood you the first time. And I think I've said what I wanted to say on the matter, whether you like the way it was presented or not. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[iBrian]

Interesting developments -

On the one hand, a test of the new peace Abbas and Sharon are trying to build after a suicide bomb in Tel Aviv - however, news reports are suggesting a split within Islamic Jihad, with the Gaza faction denying involvement, while an apparent base in Syria claiming involvement. It's serious enough that Israel has effectively blamed Syria for the bombing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4301447.stm

Another surprise in the news is of democratic reform in Egypt, with Hosni Mubarrak suddenly asking the Egyptian Parliament to support his bid to change the Egyptian Consitution to allow multiple candidates in presidential elections:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4300039.stm

 

[Quahom1]

Interesting points, all!



I Brian said, "There is progress in the Middle East - but the ill-planned Iraq War is going to rumble on in its consequences."



Sacred Star said, "...the US is really the puppet until such time as there is an alternative energy source." and "...Well GOD as allowed civilizations to be wiped out before and I am sure GOD will allow it again, we co-create destruction and GOD allows us to use our free will to do it with our own hands."

Mirror in the Fog said, "...We, the regular folks who don't make decisions, just get stuck with the gas bills and the death tolls.", and "The fact that war is profitable to certain factions, and severely detrimental to the rest, is a fact."



Didymus said, "...I think that the US is in error to propose the installation of a democratic government in Iraq. The US has seriously underestimated the Arab people and their culture. By nature of their religion democracy will be difficult. From what I know government is still very interweaved with religion. Religious views and democracy don't go hand in hand as we see here in the USA", and "...I don't see an end to insurgent attacks. Those aren't just Iraqis that are attacking they are coming in from neighboring countries and they are putting aside their differences to fight for a common cause which they see as the US."



Bandit said, "...There is something different about the whole spirit of battle in this one. To tell you the honest truth, I don’t think most of them even realize what they are doing. But someone out there with power and big money knows." and "...I believe this is good insight. Allies, is just another word for who can we trust. I don’t think the U.S. (or any nation) is too big to be swallowed."



Friend said, "...The new world of the American regime have two directions, the first one to dominate the Oil resources around the world and prevent any possible future power to benefit from these resources like China or old EU (As Bush said )..." and "... the other direction is to applied something like the Marshal plan which was used to some Europe countries after War II against socialism ….., They call to political Reforms in the Middle east countries and promote American life style to be sure that the first step of the New World is under their control ." and "...and we know without any doubt that Oil is the base of any economic power ." and "...we should remember that the Nuclear Technology of what was called the Soviets Union or RSSA transmitted to many countries..."and"...the military bases in the gulf states and Iraq will help to meet this new dangerous and to make the political situations in Asia under their control."



Q says: This is my set of thoughts so far. If the United States had not lost the twin towers in 2001, to terrorists of Arabic decent, we would not be considering these thoughts today. Originally, when the towers fell, it was thought that over 80,000 people were in the buildings, and that was reported to the world. First impressions are lasting ones. Even when a week later the toll whittled down to just over 3000 casualties, the rage of the original number stuck in the subconscious mind of America. When the "war" was brought to US soil that changed things for the US and the World, irrevocably. No longer would the ocean provide a natural protection for America. No longer would the United States be naive about their thinking on how the world runs, nor how deadly it is. Even during World War I and II and Korea and Vietnam, the people of the United States considered themselves to be fighting someone else’s war. Americans considered themselves to be helping their "neighbors" against the "bad guys". America has been very good about "championing the Underdog" (arrogant in a way, yes...but true), yet the American heart was never totally in it. Now, enter reality. And welcome to the real world America. Only the real world did not expect in any way shape or form, the behemoth that is now awake.



November 2004 elections should have been a wake up call to the rest of the world. Prs Bush never changed his tune during his campaign, and was elected by 286 to 242 electoral vote margin...He also received over 55 % of the popular vote. The Legislative branch became even more dominated by the conservatives. Bush ran his platform as a "Wartime" president, and won.



It is not just the president of the United States and the power brokers that want this war. The common vote clearly indicates that the majority of Americans want it as well (in for a penny, in for a pound).



The United States will never recede back to its original borders again, I opine.



And here is a very chilling thought. The United States is solely capable of devastating the entire world. No one talks about it, but the reality is there. Some might say it would never happen...no one is crazy enough to drop the bomb...but the United States has in fact done so, not once, but twice...on real people...



I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the rest of the world wishes that the US would simply go home, and be the benign big neighbor it once use to be (the huge, albeit stupid idiot of the block that everyone liked and poked fun at, but no one took seriously).



19 men woke up the United States' anger. The US government is capitalizing on that anger.



I believe you are all correct so far. The United States is out to re-mold the world.



As my son says, the gloves have come off, and it hurts when bare knuckles connect with bone...



The world is in shock because the United States is...hurting it?!!!



v/r



Q

 

[Quahom1]

I don't want an apology, and I'm not out to obstruct this board.

I understood you the first time. And I think I've said what I wanted to say on the matter, whether you like the way it was presented or not. So I'll leave it at that.

I'll take that as a resounding "NO!"

v/r

Q

p.s. Obviously I didn't go ask for your post to be removed, since it was how you saw things. I can't fault that, nor did you violate any rules of the forum. You don't like me, and that is fine too. You aren't the first, nor will you be the last.

 

[Bandit]

Hey Q! I do see a lot of things in it but usually when I mention anything people look at me like I am nuts. I agree with your post just above the last. If the attack of the towers had never happened none of this would be going on.

IN the 80s I mentioned to several that one day the WTC would/could be destroyed by some deceitful bombing. Everyone I talked to said that it was impossible.
It was not just the WTC, it was the pentagon and another destination, Philadlephia? I thought it could have been the Sears Tower too.

I see a scared stressed world but not too scared yet. I also see the U.S. not as a dictatorship toward other countires but more like a babysitter (but not in a bad way). Everyone is too small to stop terrorism and they cannot touch it for what over 40 years? So they all sit there scared and just let it keep happening.
I remember back in the 70s when taliban went into the caves and killed over 50,000 pentecostal christians. Slaughtered them because they had bibles.
Russia could not defeat Afghanistan.

Now the U.S. I do feel is truly trying to stop the terrorism and I do not believe the U.S. are terrorsits at all. but at the same time there are other motives which are not right. Sorry, I do believe in turning the other cheek but i also believe in self defense. the U.S. is a dove nation and seeks peace. the middle east does not.
The middle East has been messed up since it started from day number one.

Growing up I always felt Russia was the enemy and it was easy. I think that was true. Today, no one knows for sure who the enemy is and that goes for just about everything, not just politics.

Do I see world peace possible? yes. but only temporary with a false sense of peace that some will believe, then, all out destruction. Not trying to be negative, but this is the way it has to be for a reason.

 

[Quahom1]

President Bush made a profound statement. He said, if you are for terrorists, harbor terrorists, or are terrorists, you are against US, and we will come after you.

I do not think he was speaking in jest, and now the world is beginning to understand the truth behind the cowboy from Texas, and the world does not like it.

There is speculation that the United Nations planned this type of behavior (perhaps not down to the letter), wherein the United States would act as the Police Force of the world, and the United Nations would give the United States its marching orders.

What was not expected was a president like George W. Bush, who would not go along with the orginal plan (theory, no proof).

Come to think of it, it is the world's fault that Bush is still president...(in general terms, not specifically)

Had there been no attack on US soil, Bush would have remained the bumbling backwater president the world considered him to be, and probably would not have made second term. But the man knows how to fight, and refuses to back down.

History shows that Americans in general admire that in a person, especially a leader.

The Taliban, Bandit, I'm afraid is the fault of the United States. The US backed Afghanistan resistance against the Soviet Union, but then left them to their own devices. The United States also precipitated the fall of the Shah of Iran, thus setting the stage for the current governement. The US has blundered badly in the past. Now we must put right what we made wrong, becuase trouble has come home to roost. These are the facts, and the foibles of American politics.

The United States is not a "dove" nation, and never has been. Simply look at the national seal of the United States of America. The picture says it all. An Eagle wearing the US coat of Arms (shield), with wings spread as if in flight. The face looks to the right and in the right talon is a sprig of olive branch, with 13 leaves and 13 olives (the branch of peace, by a nation that wants peace). But in the left talon are 13 arrows...ready to make war, and above the bird is the phrase "E pluribus Unum". Of the many, one.

People just never understood that...until now. They still don't believe it, but are beginning to slowly.

One of the interesting things about America, is that its union is truly united. Canada has no such union, and neither does Europe or Africa, or any other 'union', except maybe Australia, and I think the United Kingdom (but then where did America spring from eh)?

Can the US be beaten? Yes. As you said (or maybe it was Sacred), anyone can be beaten. Defeated? I don't think so. I don't have facts to back that so I'll stop here.

v/r

Q