Are metaphysical and moral truths discoverable?

RJM said:
The W- Boson that changes subatomic particles from one into another -- a neutron into a proton -- and so enabling the atomic fusion that powers the sun and stars -- decays in the time it takes light to cover a thousandth of the width of a proton. It is only detectable by its effect and by products.

By the same reasoning the order of the universe -- down to a single atom -- points to some sort ephemeral 'organising' factor to be inferred from its effect.

Or perhaps it really did all just happen itself and order itself by pure blind chance from out of nothing.
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I would actually be quite disappointed in an architect that had to manually "patch" the system by adding extra forces to achieve emergent complexity.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes that would have to be so, no one can describe God, a Messenger or any of the worlds of God. So each of us must find the meanings. I had literally just read tgis quote before opening your response.

".....“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” (Gleanings, pp. 165-166).."

Regards Tony
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If we can't deduce the nature of god, logically we can't assume its existence either.
 
Bloodshot said:
I would actually be quite disappointed in an architect that had to manually "patch" the system by adding extra forces to achieve emergent complexity.
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Well if the strong and weak forces came into being virtually immediately after the symmetry breaking, they were really there from the start, in practice, as forces dedicated to the atomic nucleus alone.

The quantum electton shells result from a primal law dedicated singly towards enabling atoms?
 
RJM said:
Well if the strong and weak forces came into being virtually immediately after the symmetry breaking, they were really there from the start, in practice, as forces dedicated to the atomic nucleus alone.

The quantum electton shells result from a primal law dedicated singly towards enabling atoms?
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Sneaking intent into the language there again...

I can imagine how physics could feasibly self tune, in a system set up to favour complexity.

Oh, and we're not talking about "pure random chance", we're talking about possibilities constrained by natural or imposed limits.
 
Bloodshot said:
Sneaking intent into the language there again...
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Not sneaking anything. Forces dedicated purely to the formation of atoms appear to be there with the purpose of enabling the formation of atoms.

But @Bloodshot this can go round and around for ever, and I've said my piece in earlier posts. So ... ;)
 
RJM said:
Not sneaking anything. Forces dedicated purely to the formation of atoms appear to be there with the purpose of enabling the formation of atoms.

But @Bloodshot this can go round and around for ever, and I've said my piece in earlier posts. So ... ;)
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Yeah, agreed, we're not really getting anywhere. I've enjoyed the dance though! 🙃

I (obviously) think emergent self optimisation can probably account for everything, but I accept that, without proof, this is a position of faith like any other.
 
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Bloodshot said:
If we can't deduce the nature of god, logically we can't assume its existence either.
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The existence of God does not need to be an assumption. God is revealed to us by His given "Self", his chosen Messengers/ Prophets. Baha'u'llah has explained this metaphysical truth in detail.

"...The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade.... These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest......"

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The existence of God does not need to be an assumption. God is revealed to us by His given "Self", his chosen Messengers/ Prophets. Baha'u'llah has explained this metaphysical truth in detail.

"...The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade.... These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest......"

Regards Tony
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Ah, ok. So we can't deduce these things directly, but some have been personally singled out for this privileged knowledge by god.

To me this looks like:

1 You don't and can't know god independently
2 I know god
3 Only through me can you know god
4 I hold the keys to heaven

Fairly standard, almost boilerplate setup to ensure a comfortable future for the priest class.

So why should I trust them exactly?
 
Bloodshot said:
Ah, ok. So we can't deduce these things directly, but some have been personally singled out for this privileged knowledge by god.

To me this looks like:

1 You don't and can't know god independently
2 I know god
3 Only through me can you know god
4 I hold the keys to heaven

Fairly standard, almost boilerplate setup to ensure a comfortable future for the priest class.

So why should I trust them exactly?
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In this case it's not the priest class but the new Christ whose writings are the only truth for all mankind for the next 1000 years
 
RJM said:
In this case it's not the priest class but the new Christ whose writings are the only truth for all mankind for the next 1000 years
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Or to put it another way, just one more guy with a claim that not only is unsubstantiated, but is literally impossible to falsify according to him.
 
Bloodshot said:
If we can't deduce the nature of god, logically we can't assume its existence either.
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Well, I do think about properties of Brahman, the entity which in my belief (non-dual Hinduism) is not a God but the stuff that constitutes all things in the universe, sort of base, like the Plasma with which the universe started. Brahman, IMHO, is eternal (whether manifested or un-manifested), change is its inherent quality (therefore, it can be said that it does not change from that position of constant change), it is manifested in all forms. It is not involved in the lives of beings as a personal God is supposed to be.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Well, I do think about properties of Brahman, the entity which in my belief (non-dual Hinduism) is not a God but the stuff that constitutes all things in the universe, sort of base, like the Plasma with which the universe started. Brahman, IMHO, is eternal (whether manifested or un-manifested), change is its inherent quality (therefore, it can be said that it does not change from that position of constant change), it is manifested in all forms. It is not involved in the lives of beings as a personal God is supposed to be.
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Right! I've called this hwyl elsewhere. Quantum flux is another term. Spirit used to mean exactly this, until meanings drifted.

It cannot be still, and reacts to its own constant change, but has no inherent volition, agency, consciousness, intelligence etc.
 
Bloodshot said:
cannot be still, and reacts to its own constant change,
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That to me is nature. Spirit is silent, still, eternal. Nature is restless, active, always changing.

EDIT: perhaps TAO is the mixing interaction of the uncreated world of spirit with the created world of nature
 
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Bloodshot said:
To me this looks like:

1 You don't and can't know god independently
2 I know god
3 Only through me can you know god
4 I hold the keys to heaven
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I see it more like this

1 No one can know God
2 Not even the Messengers know God
3 God is revealed through the Messengers
4 God gives this path as the keys to heaven

There is no "I" in a messenger, they are selfless, total submission to "God's Will".
Bloodshot said:
So why should I trust them exactly
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That is the choice we are all given. Why should we trust them? This part of a quote from Baha'u'llah could be a part answer to that.

"...The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements..."

In the end, one has to decide for their own self, why they should be trusted.

Regards Tony
 
RJM said:
In this case it's not the priest class but the new Christ whose writings are the only truth for all mankind for the next 1000 years
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I would also offer that He has received what is of Jesus Christ and given it back unto us.

John 16:13"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.." ;)

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The existence of God does not need to be an assumption. God is revealed to us by His given "Self", his chosen Messengers/ Prophets. Baha'u'llah has explained this metaphysical truth in detail.
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Everything quoted sounds more like abstract and poetic description rather than clarifying information about an unseen reality
 
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