Are metaphysical and moral truths discoverable?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
He has received what is of Jesus Christ and given it back unto us.
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No difference between the persons who started the various Abrahamic religions. Narcissists, egoists, addressing a superstitious audience, in hope of benefits. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Husayn Ali Nuri, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and the various imamates, Shia, Ismailia, Dawoodi, etc.
 
Aupmanyav said:
No difference between the persons who started the various Abrahamic religions. Narcissists, egoists, addressing a superstitious audience, in hope of benefits. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Husayn Ali Nuri, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and the various imamates, Shia, Ismailia, Dawoodi, etc.
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I can't speak for the others, but Jesus at least may possibly have said you can commune directly with his god without needing middlemen.

Not that this stopped his words being weaponised by the Romans, making it basically impossible to trust anything in the Bible :(
 
Bloodshot said:
I can't speak for the others, but Jesus at least may possibly have said you can commune directly with his god without needing middlemen.

Not that this stopped his words being weaponised by the Romans, making it basically impossible to trust anything in the Bible :(
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As you know I am a hard atheist. Jesus did talk about a kingdom to come. Perhaps he wanted to lead that kingdom.
That is what amateur rabble-rousers think. Che Guevara, failed in Congo and got killed in Bolivia.
Romans! Do you mean Paul and later many others? Yeah, there is no way to find what Jesus actually preached. It is all made-up.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Romans! Do you mean Paul and later many others? Yeah, there is no way to find what Jesus actually preached. It is all made-up.
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Exactly. The whole process of adoption and canonisation of Christianity was inextricably bound to the political goals of the very empire he rebelled against.
 
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Bloodshot said:
Exactly. The whole process of adoption and canonisation of Christianity was inextricably bound to the political goals of the very empire he rebelled against.
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If you are talking about the books and composition of the New Testament, Constantine had nothing to do with it, and after him the Roman empire was split. If you believe that Constantine or later Roman leaders determined the content of the New Testament, you would have to find scholars to support that, imo.

If you mean that Constantine making Christianity the official religion of Rome helped the spread of Christianity, most would agree that it was a factor.

However I'm not too sure of my ground about the Eastern spread of Christianity.

 
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RJM said:
If you are talking about the books and composition of the New Testament, Constantine had nothing to do with it, and after him the Roman empire was split. If you believe that Constantine or later Roman leaders determined the content of the New Testament, you would have to find scholars to support that, imo.

If you mean that Constantine making Christianity the official religion of Rome helped the spread of Christianity, most would agree that it was a factor.

However I'm not too sure of my ground about the Eastern spread of Christianity.

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while I would consider Bart a biblical scholar i am surprised you referenced the agnostic atheist...appears he has retired from UNC but still professor emeritus.
 
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RJM said:
However I'm not too sure of my ground about the Eastern spread of Christianity.
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When a ideology/scam comes, some people fall for it, east or west. They have the same percentage of superstitious people.
Othertimes, it is forced on them on threat of death and destruction.
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The clarity is found in the Messengers, the Revelations and the Books, such as the Bible and the Qur'an. That is the essence behind that quote.
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I think TheLightWithin has been reading the Husayn Ali, Abbas and Shoghi Rabbani quotes that you and other Bahais have posted and says that she is still confused.
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
God is revealed to us by His given "Self", his chosen Messengers/ Prophets.
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So, Husayn Ali was the "Self" of the Abrahamic God in your belief. The uneducated 19th Century Iranian claimed that but gave no verifiable evidence for it. As the "Self" of the Abrahamic God, he could have easily do that. What prevented him from giving such evidence?
 
TheLightWithin said:
But there's also the statement about nobody going to the father but through him.
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Bahais, as far as I know, dispute many things in Bible including immaculate conception and resurrection, but do not dispute that. They say that the message is true but old and to be disregarded. Husayn Ali was the "Self" of the Abrahamic God (whatever that means) and has brought the latest message from him, and therefore now, 'nobody goes to the father' but through Husayn Ali.
The word 'manifestation is a Husayn Ali invention in the theology of Abrahamic religions. Moses, Jesus and Muhammad too were manifestations of Allah, but for the time till the new one arrived in each case. And the latest is the uneducated 19th Century Iranian, Husayn Ali Nuri; and Allah will not send anyone for another 800 years.
Some scams continue over centuries like God sending prophets, sons, messengers, manifesttions (whatever that means), mahdis, imams, etc., because there are people who fall for it. It is like a Delhi tourist scam that there are riots in some parts of the city so the cab driver takes a different route and you end up paying thrice for the ride.
 
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wil said:
while I would consider Bart a biblical scholar i am surprised you referenced the agnostic atheist...appears he has retired from UNC but still professor emeritus.
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Not sure how to respond @wil. Do you assume I would restrict myself to Christian apologetics? I have quoted Bart Ehrman before :)

Aupmanyav said:
When a ideology/scam comes, some people fall for it, east or west. They have the same percentage of superstitious people.
Other times, it is forced on them on threat of death and destruction.
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Ok,. I was really talking about the expansion of the eastern Roman empire, around Constantinople, and the Orthodox Church after Constantine the great. But what you say -- that too, lol
 
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TheLightWithin said:
But there's also the statement about nobody going to the father but through him.
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Exactly, an addition (John?) which, regardless of intention, paved the way for Christianity to drift back towards the traditional form of a formal religious institution, with priests, hierarchies, buildings, power structures etc.
 
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