Do angels have free will?

Do angels have free will?


  • Total voters
    36
Paladin said:
Q,
"If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended..." :)
That you have but slumbered here while these visions did appear...

:D

As for Angel's and Free Will - the mystical tradition seems to have Angels possessing no Free Will as a given, while humans have Free Will as a given.

As a possible aside within the topic of the thread, is the perception that Angels may have Free Will a specifically Christian variation on a theme - namely because God being opposed requires instruments that have the Free Will to oppose...?
 
I wouldn't say mystical traditions say humans have free will as a given. I've seen it suggested, I forget by whom, that human free will is entirely illusory. But it was from someone who was most certainly a mystic. I don't remember the source but I do remember that the type of source would have had to have been that of a mystic. It might have been Arthur Green. Not sure.

As a possible aside within the topic of the thread, is the perception that Angels may have Free Will a specifically Christian variation on a theme - namely because God being opposed requires instruments that have the Free Will to oppose...?

Islam has the jinn. I am not sure if jinnis have free will. Judaism does have its own demonology that most Jews are unaware of and I am not sure whether or not they are supposed to have free will or where they come from or whether they might just have been created under the influence of medieval Christianity.

I know that if a demon resides in someone's home somewhere then they can kill someone who enters their space, but they can also be taken to court (how Jewish) and they must and do cooperate and abide by the rulings of the court. But I know almost nothing about demons in Judaism and it's certainly not very en vogue now. I don't know if they do have free will or how they were created. Maybe someone else can help with those answers.

I'm not sure I agree with your thesis entirely as to why angels have free will in Christianity though. I think you may be correct but that it may also have had to do with the early and intense Helenization of Christianity. Supernatural beings with free will are more like gods than angels, with one supreme god to watch over them. Why does God have to be opposed in Christianity? Lacking this idea, what is lacking? Looking at it now, certainly there is a basic belief about this in Christianity, but is this belief needed in order to maintain other Christian beliefs or is it simply one of many that all fall together?

Dauer
 
dauer said:
That would make sense if it were a quote to help understand the Christian position, but it's a quote to understand the Jewish position in which God makes peace and creates evil, in which all things are from God and there is no Ultimate Power besides God.

It is said that when anything happens in the world it is because an angel makes it so. When the grass grows it is because an angel is saying, "Grow! Grow! Grow!" But why does the angel say "Grow?..." God willed an angel and willed that it should say grow. Even with Hasatan.

It is silly to judge a Jewish view of angels by Christian texts or a Christian view of angels by Jewish texts. That is not to say we cannot discuss the similar and dissimilar nature of angels, or discuss the textual basis for views on angels, but clearly the Jewish view is not the Christian view and the Christian is not the Jewish.



This was in the Christian section but it got moved.

Dauer

Edit: And the Muslim is neither Jewish nor Christian.
OIC. :) each religion needs there own thread & just call it 'angels' IMO

it still does not make sense Dauer, no matter what religion. if God made the angels to be evil on purpose, then He would be telling or forcing the angels to do bad cruel mean, things & that would not be a just & fair God. He would be an all around evil God for doing that & it would make Him a respector of persons.

so when i plant the grass seed, an angel says GROW & it starts growing.
 
Bandit said:
it still does not make sense Dauer, no matter what religion. if God made the angels to be evil on purpose,

But the angels are not evil in Judaism. They are doing God's will. They only seem evil to you because you don't like what they're doing. For example as shown in the wonderful Wonka illustration, Ha-Satan is not an evil guy. He just runs sting operations for God, testing people, and serves as prosecutor in the heavenly court, so to speak. I may not like what God has instructed Ha-Satan to do, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good reason for it. It's true that some of them get jobs that make us mad sometimes, like the angel of death. But the guy's just got a job to do, and an important one. It doesn't make him a bad angel, just a misunderstood one, an angel with a bad rep maybe. They're two very different approaches to theodicy.


so when i plant the grass seed, an angel says GROW & it starts growing.

Literalism doesn't work with God-talk in Judaism and the same is true for angel-talk usually. There isn't really an angel saying grow. Angels are the manifested expressions of God's power in the universe. You plant the grass seed, so why does it grow? You water it, so why does it grow? Why does any of the universe function this way at all? The metaphor used in Judaism to speak about these functions of the universe are the angels, the messengers of God. They don't wear white robes and have wings and a harp and live up in the clouds. But some more examples:

If the sun comes up, an angel said (not literally) "Rise!". If the rain pours down, an angel said "Pour!" If an old man dies an angel said "die!" If a person's cancer heals, an angel said "Heal!"

But angels have no free will of their own, and no real power. They are merely expressions of God's will in our world. And because we are the ones understanding God's power in the world, some are inclined to understand it in more human terms. Others would say that there really are no angels at all and it is just God, and this wouldn't really be wrong either. It might be the majority opinion, in one way or another, but I'm not sure.

Dauer
 
I saw this on Wikipedia and I'm quoting it because it's relevant. It quotes Maimonides explaining the typical Jewish view of angels:

In the Middle Ages, some Jews developed a rationalist view of angels that is still accepted by many Jews today. The rationalist view of angels, as held by Maimonides, Gersonides, Samuel Ibn Tibbon, etc., states that God's actions are never mediated by a violation of the laws of nature. Rather, all such interactions are by way of angels. Even this can be highly misleading: Maimonides harshly states that the average person's understanding of the term "angel" is ignorant in the extreme. Instead, he says, the wise man sees that what the Bible and Talmud refer to as "angels" are actually metaphors for the various laws of nature, or the principles by which the physical universe operates, or kinds of platonic eternal forms. This is explained in his Guide of the Perplexed II:4 and II:6.

II:4



"...This leads Aristotle in turn to the demonstrated fact that God, glory and majesty to Him, does not do things by direct contact. God burns things by means of fire; fire is moved by the motion of the sphere; the sphere is moved by means of a disembodied intellect, these intellects being the 'angels which are near to Him', through whose mediation the spheres [planets] move....thus totally disembodied minds exist which emanate from God and are the intermediaries between God and all the bodies [objects] here in this world."




II:6



"...Aristotle's doctrine that these disembodied spheres serve as the nexus between God and existence, by whose mediation the sphere are brought into motion, which is the cause of all becoming, is the express import of all the Scriptures. For you will never in Scripture any activity done by God except through an angel. And "angel", as you know, means messenger. Thus anything which executes a command is an angel. So the motions of living beings, even those that are inarticulate, are said explicitly by Scripture to be due to angels.





...Our argument here is concerned solely with those "angels" which are disembodied intellects. For our Bible is not unaware that God governs this existence through the mediation of angels...(Maimonides then quotes discussions of angels from Genesis, Plato, and Midrash Bereshit Rabbah)...the import in all these texts is not—as a primitive mentality would suppose—to suggest any discussion or planning or seeking of advice on God's part. How could the Creator receive aid from the object of his creation? The real import of all is to proclaim that existence—including particular individuals and even the formation of the parts of animals such as they are—is brought about entirely through the mediation of angels.





For all forces are angels! How blind, how perniciously blind are the naïve?! If you told someone who purports to be a sage of Israel that the Deity sends an angel who enters a woman's womb and there forms an embryo, he would think this a miracle and accept it as a mark of the majesty and power of the Deity—despite the fact that he believes an angel to be a body of fire one third the size of the entire world. All this, he thinks, is possible for God. But if you tell him that God placed in the sperm the power of forming and demarcating these organs, and that this is the angel, or that all forms are produced by the Active Intellect—that here is the angel, the "vice-regent of the world" constantly mentioned by the sages—then he will recoil. For he [the naïve person] does not understand that the true majesty and power are in the bringing into being of forces which are active in a thing although they cannot be perceived by the senses.





The sages of blessed memory state clearly—to those who are wise themselves—that every bodily power (not to mention forces at large in the world) is an angel and that a given power has one effect and no more. It says in Midrash Bereshit Rabbah "We are given to understand that no angel performs two missions, nor do two angels perform one mission."—which is just the case with all forces. To confirm the conclusion that individual physical and psychological forces are called "angels", there is the dictum of the sages, in a number of places, ultimately derived from Bereshit Rabbah, "Each day the Holy One creates a band of angels who sing their song before him and go their way." Midrash Bereshit Rabbah, LXXVIII. When this midrash was countered with another which suggests that angels are permanent...the answer given was that some are permanent and other perish. And this is in fact the case. Particular forces come to be and pass away in constant succession; the species of such forces, however, are stable and enduring....[Giving a few more examples of the mention of angels in rabbinic writings, Maimonides says] Thus the Sages reveal to the aware that the imaginative faculty is also called an angel; and the mind is called a cherub. How beautiful this will appear to the sophisticated mind—and how disturbing to the primitive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels#Jewish_views

I wrote something on the previous page in my own words.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
But the angels are not evil in Judaism. They are doing God's will. They only seem evil to you because you don't like what they're doing. For example as shown in the wonderful Wonka illustration, Ha-Satan is not an evil guy. He just runs sting operations for God, testing people, and serves as prosecutor in the heavenly court, so to speak. I may not like what God has instructed Ha-Satan to do, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good reason for it. It's true that some of them get jobs that make us mad sometimes, like the angel of death. But the guy's just got a job to do, and an important one. It doesn't make him a bad angel, just a misunderstood one, an angel with a bad rep maybe. They're two very different approaches to theodicy.




Literalism doesn't work with God-talk in Judaism and the same is true for angel-talk usually. There isn't really an angel saying grow. Angels are the manifested expressions of God's power in the universe. You plant the grass seed, so why does it grow? You water it, so why does it grow? Why does any of the universe function this way at all? The metaphor used in Judaism to speak about these functions of the universe are the angels, the messengers of God. They don't wear white robes and have wings and a harp and live up in the clouds. But some more examples:

If the sun comes up, an angel said (not literally) "Rise!". If the rain pours down, an angel said "Pour!" If an old man dies an angel said "die!" If a person's cancer heals, an angel said "Heal!"

But angels have no free will of their own, and no real power. They are merely expressions of God's will in our world. And because we are the ones understanding God's power in the world, some are inclined to understand it in more human terms. Others would say that there really are no angels at all and it is just God, and this wouldn't really be wrong either. It might be the majority opinion, in one way or another, but I'm not sure.

Dauer
i know angels do not literally make grass grow:) .
i am afraid i disagree with 90% of this teaching on angels but if you want to believe it that is up to you.
When you come full circle with it this way, you end up with an evil God that brings temptation and/or a teaching that evil does not exist.

i believe angels do have free will & they made a choice (past tense) to worship & love God.

Some rebelled of there own free will, by trying to rise above God & there is no place for them in heaven or around the throne of God & they are cast down to the earth.
as for them having power...no more than what God will allow.
 
Bandit said:
When you come full circle with it this way, you end up with an evil God that brings temptation and/or a teaching that evil does not exist.

Well certainly God does tempt. There's no argument there. How does that make God evil? Temptations, challenges, obstacles help us to grow. If these did not exist we could not improve ourselves. We do this growth in the struggle with adversity and not in its absence.

Question: In the Christian model isn't God, as omniscient, omnipotent Creator also the tempter, since He could have never created Satan or could have stopped Satan at some point in time?

In the end we're going to end up agreeing to disagree but is there something I am misunderstanding about Christian theology here?

Dauer
 
dauer said:
Well certainly God does tempt. There's no argument there. How does that make God evil? Temptations, challenges, obstacles help us to grow. If these did not exist we could not improve ourselves. We do this growth in the struggle with adversity and not in its absence.

Question: In the Christian model isn't God, as omniscient, omnipotent Creator also the tempter, since He could have never created Satan or could have stopped Satan at some point in time?

In the end we're going to end up agreeing to disagree but is there something I am misunderstanding about Christian theology here?

Dauer
i dont know,

God does not tempt man with evil. it is contrary to scripture & how he operates. this is where we have the satan & his angels & this is where we have evil.


i have no idea what you mean by God could not have created satan or stopped him.

Satan was the guard of the throne...the highest postion UNTIL he tried to rise above God.
God DID create him & DID stop him when he tossed his evil a$$ out of heaven & he will stop him completely when he destroys him for refusing to repent.

yes we disagree. totally disagree.:)
 
Bandit said:
i dont know,

God does not tempt man with evil. it is contrary to scripture & how he operates. this is where we have the satan & his angels & this is where we have evil.

How is it contrary to scripture? There is much evidence God brought evil to the world. For instance, from Micah 4:6:

"On that day -- the word of Hashem -- I will assemble the limping one and gather in the one driven away, and one who I caused to be evil."

God caused someone to be evil somehow.

Or, if you'd rather,

"6. As this potter can I not do to you, O house of Israel? says the Lord. Behold, as clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.


7. One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy.


8. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it."

Jeremiah: 18:6-8

God said that He will repent the "evil" He thought to do to it, which includes uprooting, demolishing, and destroying. He also mentions that people are like putty in His hands during life that He can do anything to, and these "evil" things are the things He's speaking about doing.

or

"7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these."

God makes shalom and ra. Read it how you will, but these things parallel light and darkness and God creates them both.

or

Read the book of Job. Hasatan comes to God to doublecheck that it's okay before acting. It's God's decision. God is omniscient and can't be fooled by hasatan even if hasatan has free will. Also, God appears in the whirlwind which shows that it was God's decision to test Job. Compare this to the passage from Jeremiah, where God is free to do evil to man like clay in a potter's hands. Job shows how God tests.

i have no idea what you mean by God could not have created satan or stopped him.

Satan was the guard of the throne...the highest postion UNTIL he tried to rise above God.
God DID create him & DID stop him when he tossed his evil a$$ out of heaven & he will stop him completely when he destroys him for refusing to repent.

If Satan exists, it is because God let him exist. God is all-powerful. God also is all-knowing. This means that God knew what Satan would do and God could have stopped him. God could have eliminated Satan completely so that there would be no evil. But this does not appear to be what happened. If Satan still exists, it is because God let him exist, in which case God chose this with full knowledge of what would happen and the ability to change what would happen and it is therefore his responsibility what happens. If God did everything he could to stop Satan, then God is not all-powerful and there is some other being that has some sort of footing with God, even if it is not quite equal.

Dauer
 
Thanks, Dauer. The scriptural evidence is exactly why I agree with the Judaic view of angels and Satan and not the Christian view. Reading rabbis' comments on Satan, evil, and angels made me really think, go through the scripture and question the assumptions I had.
 
Path of one,

I'm curious, and it seems since you have explored this issue that you might be able to answer my question. Are you aware if there have ever been any sects or historical figures in Christianity's history who did also come to the same conclusions as you have regarding the nature of angels and satan, or who came to similar conclusions?

Dauer
 
A lot of Quakers don't believe in hell and Satan in the regular Christian concept of them. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few mystics and gnostics would be in that group too. I know some Episcopalians that don't believe in a literal hell or Satan either- their denomination tends to be more varied in the theology of its members than many. They all don't come to the same conclusion about them though. Some decide neither actually exist, some decide it's all in our head (hell is a state of being, and Satan is a metaphor for our own temptations and inner adversary), some think that God does tempt us on earth but it's for our own good and spiritual growth.

I'm not sure if there are any sects/denominations that currently are trying to understand Jesus and the NT in light of Judaic scripture, religion, culture, and the Hebrew language, but I'd sure love to find out. Since Jesus was a Jew and more than half the Christian Bible is the OT, I am very concerned with trying to get a reasonably accurate picture of what the Jewish religion and culture entails and how this is played out in the meaning of the NT, assuming there is a continuity there. Then I bounce that off of my own prayer and experience, and also trying to figure out how to relate all that to the life of this Gentile. ;)
 
Thank you for sharing all of that. I knew I had heard something somewhere.

Unfortunately I feel obligated to tell you that there are organized Christians trying to better understand the way Jesus may have lived. But the problem is that in most cases they maintain a traditional Christian theology regarding Jesus' divinity which conflicts with a basic reading of even the ten commandments in the Hebrew. Another problem is that they often blend later Jewish practices with this.

All that I have mentioned is not such a big deal to me. I could care less how people find God as long as they are not harming each other. The issue I have is that some of these groups were formed with the intent to pose as a legitimate form of modern Judaism in order to more effectively missionize to Jews, which they do at campuses and old age homes, anywhere else they can get people. They have rabbis who are really ordained ministers and so forth. Their theology is entirely Christian.

Having said that, this is not the entire movement. This might help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

Dauer
 
Thank you for the reference, and I greatly appreciate the spirit in which it was given, as it takes a lot to give out information with which one disagrees.

That said, I'm with you on that one. I'm not interested in starting from a place of assumptions and proving them by twisting things to suit me. I'm interested in starting from a place of removing my biases and finding the truth based on my spiritual experience and study of the scriptures from a place of open-mindedness. I guess it's the anthropologist in me, I just can't stand starting from a place of assuming I already know the answers, and I abhor imposing my own ideas on another culture or religion. I wish to understand the other culture/religion from their own viewpoint first, before I choose whether or not to internalize various bits or how it fits with my own life.

And I totally agree about people finding God. That is why I am a path-of-one. I don't feel the need for anyone else to agree with me or tell me how I should be interpreting scripture or experiencing God. I don't feel like I need to convince anyone of my ideas, either. I'm happy to share them, but it doesn't much matter to me if people agree or chuck my ideas out their window. As long as no one is getting hurt, I just rejoice that all these people are seeking after God and a good, ethical life.
 
Gee Path-of-one, why can't you just be a non-conformist like everyone else! :0)
 
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Some People teach no free will of angels, so they can teach no free will of man, which ultimately leads to no heaven or hell, no judgement, no sin, no satan etc. etc. etc.

Abraham was 'put to the test' not tempted by God with evil.


but...hey, whatever floats your boat:)
 
If angels have free will, why would Christ be sacrificed AFTER
humans were created, and not for the Angels only?
 
endtimes said:
If angels have free will, why would Christ be sacrificed AFTER
humans were created, and not for the Angels only?
i believe the judgement has already went forth for the angels before God made man. there was a seperation between the angels & this is where evil really started & the angels who went against God were cast out of the midst of heaven onto the earth.
angels are different from people. they are just created spirits.

I believe Jesus was the sacrfice for the sins of the world (people) & his blood covers all of the righteous in both directions, before & after Jesus. Jesus did not die for the angels, because that judgement for angels has already been made prior to Adam. His sacrifice was for man & not angels. Actually Jesus is higher than the angels. Jesus is at the very top.

remember the devil had to ask for permission to tempt Job. Jesus was also tempted by the devil, but Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost which he was able to resist the temptation of the devil, & the devil had to flee.
We can do the same thing when we have temptation if we have the Holy Ghost.
The scripture tells us ahead of time that the angels who left there first estate, never repent & are destroyed & there works are destroyed at the second judgement.

I do believe the angels are real created beings, not a metaphor or just thoughts, like some believe.

What do you think endtimes? & welcome to the boards:)
 
Yes, I too, agree that angels are created beings, not just thought or metaphor. But how do you explain Paul's question in 1 Cor 6:3? "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" (KJV) Even though we (including Jesus) are made "a little lower than the angels." (Ps 8:5 ; Heb 2:7,9)

This appears to mean that the angels, too, shall be judged at the 2nd coming, does it not? With Jesus at the Right Hand of the Father...(Mark 16:19 ; Luke 22:69 ; Acts 7:56 ; Rom 8:34 ; Colossians 3:1 ; Heb 12:2 ; 1 Pet 3:22)

May I ask your references for the belief that the angels have been judged prior to the creation? I would like to study this further...

And thank you for the welcome, as I look forward to having many discussions on this board : )
 
Back
Top