What's meant by the Tower of Babel?

[Quahom1]

there is an interesting parallel to be found in African myth. The version that comes to mind concerns an old woman who accidentally strikes the high god on his foot with her pestal, causing him to retreat back into the heavens ,separating the link between heaven and earth forever.

The old woman gathers her children about her, and together, they build a high tower contructed entirely of pestles (ironically the very thing that severed heaven from earth in the first place).

The tower was almost complete. All that was needed was a single pestle to reach the gates of heaven, but not a single pestle remained in the whole land. all had been used up, and so the tower remained incomplete.

Then the old woman had a bright idea, and ordered the the bottom pestle be removed so it could be placed on the top, and of course, the towers collapsed, proving once and for all that mankind, is incapable of ever reaching heaven.

Wow, that is the coolest version I've heard in a long time (and the most unique).

Thanks for sharing.

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

Wrote Josephus: "[Nimrod] little by little transformed the state of affairs into a tyranny, holding that the only way to detach men from the fear of God was by making them continuously dependent upon his own power. He threatened to have his revenge on God if He wished to inundate the earth again; for he would build a tower higher than the water could reach and avenge the destruction of their forefathers. The people were eager to follow this advice of [Nimrod], deeming it slavery to submit to God; so they set out to build the tower . . . and it rose with a speed beyond all expectation."—Jewish Antiquities, I, 114, 115 (iv, 2, 3)...............so it seems that the tower was build in deviance of God , nimrod thought he knew better than God

 

[Quahom1]

Wrote Josephus: "[Nimrod] little by little transformed the state of affairs into a tyranny, holding that the only way to detach men from the fear of God was by making them continuously dependent upon his own power. He threatened to have his revenge on God if He wished to inundate the earth again; for he would build a tower higher than the water could reach and avenge the destruction of their forefathers. The people were eager to follow this advice of [Nimrod], deeming it slavery to submit to God; so they set out to build the tower . . . and it rose with a speed beyond all expectation."—Jewish Antiquities, I, 114, 115 (iv, 2, 3)...............so it seems that the tower was build in deviance of God , nimrod thought he knew better than God

The ultimate defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. The allusion is that man is once again of the mind that it is becoming enslaved by the God concept (today). Governments attempt to coerce the people into thinking God is the enemy. And the people used to the luxuries of personal rights, are falling right in step with what the goverments are saying. The "tower" being built then would you say, is a tower of defiance?

Ironic that God scattered the peoples of earth by confounding their language, a long time ago, and today, man is re-consolidating language into one "official version" for communications, commerce, international dialogue...and that language appears to be a combination of mathematics and...English.

It is quite obvious that some in governemt (uncluding the UN), and I emphasize "some" consider God to be irrelevant.

For those who profess a belief in any form of supreme diety/dieties, this should be a dire warning (in my opinion). These anti-God personas, intend to strip us all of our God (s), and replace it with the state's view of things.

I did not think it possible, until they began going after the chaplains of the military (the most regimented, disciplined, faithful of the very people they serve). But right before our eyes within the last few weeks, the chaplains have come under intense fire.

Break the moral back of the military...and what is left to stop the godless?

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

It is quite obvious that some in governemt (uncluding the UN), and I emphasize "some" consider God to be irrelevant.



Break the moral back of the military...and what is left to stop the godless?

v/r

Q

Yes you are right, some in goverment today are going that way but as christians will be aware this is all part of bible prophecy so it will happen ,and rather than the UN being (uncluded) i would say that bible prophecy would seem to go in the direction of the UN being (included) in this , and guess what it is God who will put it into the hearts of these to do this, i wonder why? must be a good reason for it dont you think? still no worries
Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in ( PEACE ) 2 PETER 3;14


For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of JUDGEMENT and of destruction of the UNGODLY MEN...2 PETER 3;5-7 so i would say what is important for true christians is to remain spotless and in peace because then we are not included inamongst the ungodly. ok , back to the tower, seems that those who decide to do things opposite to God have the wrong attitude and think they can out wit God but that is never a good place to put one self best to do it Gods way

 

[Quahom1]

My bad, I meant "including the UN" and especially the UN...

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

My bad, I meant "including the UN" and especially the UN...

v/r

Q

yes , its all part of bible prophecy so as the bible says ,keep on the watch
Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,.............matthew 24;15

 

[Alvis Rofhessa]

I see a picture in the Titanic.
There is a book just out corresponding Babel with New World Order see

Babel may not mean division of languages but mixing up.
Language could even be connected with DNA?

It is true that occultists say "language" = religion/occult/force, but the story is not just an operative fiction. Religion/Bible/Occult is about Holism which means it inlcudes science/history/etc. Holists would need/want to have a true picture of history. A true story is better than a fictional one.

Re Chinese not able to be shown from Proto-Human: Some scholars have evidence that it can be/is, incld my own research eg Yao winds god = Vayu winds god, Fei Lien winds god ~ En-lil wind god, Di ~ Zeus?, Ti-mu = Sumer Zimu-um earth goddess, etc.

Babel was sometime between Noah and Abraham and so may have been before Peleg. Tradition says shortly/immediately after flood. Arab says Hud was Heber (tho I thought he might be Arphaxad).

Do you have a reference or specific culture/people/language for that African version?

Here are many versions I have found from my free web site (see profile):

Judaeo-Xtian/Biblical versions: Tower of Babel up to Heaven built by Nimrod a mighty hunter or Cush shortly after flood, tongues confused; Lucifer said I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; Image/(golden head) Dan 2; Image Dan 3; Image Rev 13 (Acknowl: T Jantsang):

->Greek versions: Aloeidae gigantes Ephialtes & Otus stack Mt Pelion on Mt Ossa in order to climb to heavens. (Ref: C Cook/Pears.)
->Maori version: Whare (house) in middle of fishe's back.
->Celtic version: druid Bresal builds tower? (Ref: Brennan.)
->Iranian version: Cai Caous reared a city & palace of grt splendor, garisoned by genii, endeavoured to take heaven by escalade, destroyed by angel of god; builds palaces on Mt Elbruz, pride, his ambition is to conquer the sky. Ecbatana. (Ref: G Massey, Larousse, Herodotus.)
->Tanzanian version: An ancient king built a tower of Iron into the heavens, tumbled down - "rust". (Acknowl: P Schmidt/Miami Herald/Jack Wheat.)
->Samoan version: A man set himself to build a hse of grt stones, to last forever, but he couldn't get it finished the sun went rnd so fast, at last the "Itu or Atua" caused creeper to grow, with this the man made noose caught sun, then he built the house. (Ref: G Massey.)
->Arab version: Sheddad ben Ad a mighty man builds Urem/city of pillars, destroyed by 2nd flood. (Ref: Brugsh-Bey, Cavendish, Acknowl: T Jantsang, Sadowsky, S Deyo/R Schmidt.)
->Chinese versions: Hoangti builds observatory. Chihyu aspired to position of Shangti/lord of high, corrupted humans to support his rebelion, lord established a barrier between Heaven & Earth. In middle or on edge of lake someone - "Yu most certainly" - built a tower. (Acknowl: Stds Digest, Ref: EHJ Steed, Larousse.)
->Phoenician version: Baal builds palace after defeating Yamm. (Ref: Larousse.)
->Indian version: a grt tree grew upto heaven, angering Brahma, who cut off its branches and threw them down. From each branch grew a sep wata tree that gave humanity another sep lang. (Ref: B Walker.)
->Hindu: Tower of Shambhala (valley)/men built a fortress, then a city on white island in the Gobi sea.
->Sumerian versions: Etana. "In those days the land Shubur (East), the place of plenty, of righteous decrees, Harmony-tongued Sumer (South), the great land of the "decrees of princeship," Uri (North), the land having all that is needful, The land Martu (West), resting in security, The whole universe, the people in unison, To Enlil in one tongue gave praise." (Acknowl: "Sharrukin".)
->Sumerian Version: Ziggurats built to bring gods of heaven down. (Acknowl: Scorpion/M Walker/J Campbell.)
->Babylonian version (Nebuchadnezzar): Birs-Nimrud Ziggurat of Nebo (god of writing) at Borsippa (tongue tower) near Babylon built by a former king 42 ages before Nebuchadnezar, etc. Hanging Gardens. Melted ziggurat bricks poss contemp with fused glass floor at bottom of shafts. (Ref: G Jeffries/eys, Readers Digest.)
->Hittite version: Ullikummi, let him ascend to heaven, tall as the sky, comparable with Atlas, like a tower. (Ref: Lehman, Larousse.)
->Fairy tale version: Jack and the bean stalk.
->Sci Fi version: Star Gate, 7/8 chevrons. (Acknowl: TV, Up Hutt scifi club.)
->Sth Amer vers: The Chamacoco tried to climb into the sky up a huge tree. Manco Capac built Cusco temple. Viracocha created nations and assigned languages. (Refs: Pears, Z Sitchin.)
->Mesoamerican versions: Votan builds tower after flood. Giant Xelhua builds huge tower designed to reach sky after flood. Family of giants near Puebla built pyramid, height almost 180 feet, presumption offended gods who sent fire from heaven on pyramid. (Ref: Fitzgerald-Lee, RA Anderson, P Kolosimo.)
->[British Columbia?] version: [flimsy structure to sky people?] (Ref: Mysteries book.)
->Nth Amer: "The beasts who up to this time had spoken but one language, could no longer understand each other, and in confusion fled away ...." (Ref: L Spence.)
->Roman: Janicula/Janiculum & Saturnia 2 cities on either side of the flood (Enoch & Babel).

 

[Alvis Rofhessa]

Ops I forgot to put in details of that book (quote self: " There is a book just out corresponding Babel with New World Order see ") and there dosen't seem to be an edit post option.
Book called: "OCCULT ORIGINS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER" details at address/site: (New Right NZ, geocities) has to wait until after 10 posts to be allowed to post it.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I sorta think of the Tower of Babel story as illustration of the folly of trying to construct systems of logic that encompass absolutely everything. The people were trying to construct a tower (system) of bricks (logical structures) to reach to the heavens. But in the end they got lost in semantics (confused language) and the whole thing collapsed.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

I sorta think of the Tower of Babel story as illustration of the folly of trying to construct systems of logic that encompass absolutely everything. The people were trying to construct a tower (system) of bricks (logical structures) to reach to the heavens. But in the end they got lost in semantics (confused language) and the whole thing collapsed.

Chris

But for the cryptic message from God...left to his own devices, man could accomplish anything he set his mind to...?

 

[flowperson]

I believe that the tower of Babel stories are about cell phones and cell phone towers. Just thinking out loud again.

Oh...I forgot to tell you...Babel means confusion.

flow....

 

[arthra]

Some of my speculation:

Bab-el could mean "gate to God"...of course the base was broadest on the earth and as it reached to "heaven" it narrowed. Inverting the triangle it would be broad in heaven and narrowed to a point as it touched the earth. Both triangles are often pictured interwoven.

And from Ron Price:

The Book of Genesis derives the word Babel from balal, confusion, but Babel actually means what Jacob called the place of his vision, the gate of God.1 Jacob’s ladder, or staircase, which in the imagery of the Judaeo-Christain tradition has come to be associated with reaching a higher state of existence than the ordinary one, is sometimes associated with a mountain or a tree, the world tree, the axis mundi, connecting heaven and earth. Indeed, the imagery of ladders, stairs, mountains and trees is almost universal. But humans must climb if they want to ascend; they cannot fly. -Ron Price with thanks to Northrop Frye, The Eternal Act of Creation: Essays, 1979 to 1990, Indiana UP, Bloomington, 1993, pp.38-39.

Also:

"The Biblical story of the Tower of Babel reminds us that the notion of a universal language has existed for a very long time."

Or at least the idea was probably around from ancient times.

- Art

 

[flowperson]

Thanks Art, for your post.

Of course I was being somewhat facetious in my post, but I was aware that the tower of Babel image was related to the notion of confusion. Thanks for clarifying the terminology. BTW, nomadic community shamans on the land mass of Eurasia were climbing tree structures to reach the spirit world in the sky at least as long ago as 20,000 years. The universal imagery and related concepts all come from something very ancient, but the questions are where, when, and what ?

flow....

 

[ionerice]

It’s ironic that God would destroy a brick towel around 300 feet tall to keep men from seeing what the heavens looked liked thousands of years ago yet in this day and time it seems like he doesn’t care. We have helium balloons that ascend over 300 feet in the sky. We have airplanes flying over 30,000 feet above the earth. There are numerous satellites in the sky. The Hubbell telescope and the space station are over 200 miles above the earth in the heavens and the space shuttles have made many trips up and through the heavenly skies.

Why hasn’t God just knocked all of these aeronautic devices out of the sky?

 

[Quahom1]

It’s ironic that God would destroy a brick towel around 300 feet tall to keep men from seeing what the heavens looked liked thousands of years ago yet in this day and time it seems like he doesn’t care. We have helium balloons that ascend over 300 feet in the sky. We have airplanes flying over 30,000 feet above the earth. There are numerous satellites in the sky. The Hubbell telescope and the space station are over 200 miles above the earth in the heavens and the space shuttles have made many trips up and through the heavenly skies.

Why hasn’t God just knocked all of these aeronautic devices out of the sky?

attitude, attitude, attitude. We aren't looking to be like God. We are curious about the unknown. God loves curiosity, but not arrogance and attitude...

Oh, and welcome to CR Ion.

edit: by the bye...ever notice that when we start getting cocky and self sure, something spectacularly wrong happens, and we step back and re-consider? I have.

 

[Alvis Rofhessa]

In Genesis when it says God came down to see Tower the Hebrew sense is humourous.
The Tower was an occult device intended to connect with fallen angels.

 

[taijasi]

In Genesis when it says God came down to see Tower the Hebrew sense is humourous.
The Tower was an occult device intended to connect with fallen angels.

Wow, that sounds a lot like a Pyramid ...

taijasa

 

[taijasi]

As another thought, if I objectify `god,' and make of Him a man (or of Her a woman), then my greatest conception of Him/Her will always be limited by this projection. In terms of Humanity's self-expression - during the current evolutionary period of dual genders - this means I can, at best, Face my Father ... or Mother.

And so I am left to deify one, or the other, or both, of these (conceptions, archetypal images, presences - and all associations pertaining to them, to get Jungian about it). Now since most of us still have grossly sexual misconceptions about what a true hermaphrodite is ... or an ANDROGYNE ... then aren't we fairly well stuck in the miasma of duality, for even our greatest conception, or understanding, of Deity?

On the one hand, we have Mother, with all that goes forth toward her - from our human perspective. She can be caring, nurturing, sensitive and forgiving ... or she can be firm, supportive, resolute and unyielding. Most of us may find her somewhere in between, leaning a bit more to the fomer.

Yet the only other alternative, as we struggle with the integration of certain currently objective dualities, is to think of Father. And here, while the very word, concept and imagery does often evoke a gentle, warmly receptive and forgiving type of figure & feeling, the more prevalent associations are a bit closer to the second set of associations I gave above, for Mother.

If we are really just speaking of two different tendencies which manifest, universally, in ALL humans, from time to time, life to life, and even situation to situation ... then which of these, in the last analysis, is GOD?

The associations must give way. They must yield, and admit of a Presence, a Being, and a very real Force - Loving, Intelligent, and Empowered (perhaps Empowering? perhaps, even, Intelligence-conferring, hmmm) - Whom and Which is beyond gender altogether.

How well does this rest, with the more conventional views of Deity, as we generally hold ... from custom? And yes, what would a genderless being be like? Or should I say, a Deity which is equally "masculine" and "feminine" as we have come to understand these qualities?

Immediately, it is apparent that we should avoid the temptation to concretize our image, and understanding, of God ... too greatly. Or at least, we must make effort in this direction.

And if we find that images and appearance begin to fade away, then with what shall we replace - our conception and understanding of Deity?

The Freemasons speak of TGAOUTU, The Grand Architect of the Universe. And I have always imagined a hand, when I saw this phrase ... a hand with a compass, or God geometrizing the Universe. The hand? Ahh, human. What else would it be? Right?

Perhaps, atop that Tower, it isn't the man in the robe, after all. Not a woman, not an animal, not a tree, not ET. What is it? Who is it?

And if I am able to hang onto the conception of a Geometrizing God, or perhaps a Musical One, or even a Sporting, Playful Fella ... then minus the imagery, what have I got left?

Shall I appeal to symbol, in order to represent (my) God? Shall I look to color, to sound, to feeling, to thought, to Love, to Will, to Wisdom or Mind?


No matter how abstract (we get), how can I escape, or forget ...

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There was a young man who said, "Though
It seems that I know that I know,
What I would like to see
is the "I" that knows "me"
When I know that I know that I know."[/FONT]

​

Is there anything, or anyone beyond? Or does all come down to ... end up with ... me? Hmmm. Just seems like .. there might be more ...

Curiosity serves two purposes. It invites us - to reach out, to ask, to explore. And, it helps us to arrive - at a destination. Lather, rinse, repeat. Ad infinitum (SIC!).


We cannot conceive an end to this cycle. Perhaps the end, is really a new beginning. Et resurrectus est!

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]-Edith Wharton[/FONT]​

​

Namaskar,


​

taijasa

 

[taijasi]

As another thought, if I objectify `god,' and make of Him a man (or of Her a woman), then my greatest conception of Him/Her will always be limited by this projection. In terms of Humanity's self-expression - during the current evolutionary period of dual genders - this means I can, at best, Face my Father ... or Mother.

And so I am left to deify one, or the other, or both, of these (conceptions, archetypal images, presences - and all associations pertaining to them, to get Jungian about it). Now since most of us still have grossly sexual misconceptions about what a true hermaphrodite is ... or an ANDROGYNE ... then aren't we fairly well stuck in the miasma of duality, for even our greatest conception, or understanding, of Deity?

On the one hand, we have Mother, with all that goes forth toward her - from our human perspective. She can be caring, nurturing, sensitive and forgiving ... or she can be firm, supportive, resolute and unyielding. Most of us may find her somewhere in between, leaning a bit more to the fomer.

Yet the only other alternative, as we struggle with the integration of certain currently objective dualities, is to think of Father. And here, while the very word, concept and imagery does often evoke a gentle, warmly receptive and forgiving type of figure & feeling, the more prevalent associations are a bit closer to the second set of associations I gave above, for Mother.

If we are really just speaking of two different tendencies which manifest, universally, in ALL humans, from time to time, life to life, and even situation to situation ... then which of these, in the last analysis, is GOD?

The associations must give way. They must yield, and admit of a Presence, a Being, and a very real Force - Loving, Intelligent, and Empowered (perhaps Empowering? perhaps, even, Intelligence-conferring, hmmm) - Whom and Which is beyond gender altogether.

How well does this rest, with the more conventional views of Deity, as we generally hold ... from custom? And yes, what would a genderless being be like? Or should I say, a Deity which is equally "masculine" and "feminine" as we have come to understand these qualities?

Immediately, it is apparent that we should avoid the temptation to concretize our image, and understanding, of God ... too greatly. Or at least, we must make effort in this direction.

And if we find that images and appearance begin to fade away, then with what shall we replace - our conception and understanding of Deity?

The Freemasons speak of TGAOUTU, The Grand Architect of the Universe. And I have always imagined a hand, when I saw this phrase ... a hand with a compass, or God geometrizing the Universe. The hand? Ahh, human. What else would it be? Right?

Perhaps, atop that Tower, it isn't the man in the robe, after all. Not a woman, not an animal, not a tree, not ET. What is it? Who is it?

And if I am able to hang onto the conception of a Geometrizing God, or perhaps a Musical One, or even a Sporting, Playful Fella ... then minus the imagery, what have I got left?

Shall I appeal to symbol, in order to represent (my) God? Shall I look to color, to sound, to feeling, to thought, to Love, to Will, to Wisdom or Mind?


No matter how abstract (we get), how can I escape, or forget ...

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There was a young man who said, "Though
It seems that I know that I know,
What I would like to see
is the "I" that knows "me"
When I know that I know that I know."[/FONT]

​

Is there anything, or anyone beyond? Or does all come down to ... end up with ... me? Hmmm. Just seems like .. there might be more! Oedipus-Electra, hmmm ...

Curiosity serves two purposes. It invites us - to reach out, to ask, to explore. And, it helps us to arrive - at a destination. Lather, rinse, repeat. Ad infinitum (SIC!).


We cannot conceive an end to this cycle. Perhaps the end, is really a new beginning. Et resurrectus est!

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]-Edith Wharton[/FONT]​

​

Namaskar,
​

taijasa

​

 

[mahud]

We cannot conceive an end to this cycle. Perhaps the end, is really a new beginning. Et resurrectus est!

That reminds me of the African version of the Babel myth, I mentioned a while back.

there is an interesting parallel to be found in African myth. The version that comes to mind concerns an old woman who accidentally strikes the high god on his foot with her pestal, causing him to retreat back into the heavens ,separating the link between heaven and earth forever.

The old woman gathers her children about her, and together, they build a high tower contructed entirely of pestles (ironically the very thing that severed heaven from earth in the first place).

The tower was almost complete. All that was needed was a single pestle to reach the gates of heaven, but not a single pestle remained in the whole land. all had been used up, and so the tower remained incomplete.

Then the old woman had a bright idea, and ordered the the bottom pestle be removed so it could be placed on the top, and of course, the towers collapsed, proving once and for all that mankind, is incapable of ever reaching heaven.

The old woman's (and her children) inability to unite the beginning with the end of the tower.

It also reminds me of a saying of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas

The disciples said to Jesus "tell us how our end will come to pass." and Jesus said, "then you have laid bare the beginning, so that you are seeking the end? For the end will be where the beginning is. Blessed is the person who stands at rest in the beginning. And that person will be acquainted with the end and will not taste death (18)." (Layton, B, 1987, p.383).

Jesus seems to be pointing towards somekind of transcendent reality.