Revelation, are you ready?

[Quahom1]

What is the book of Revelation? Who is the author? What does the book mean? Is it the end of the world? Is it the beginning of a new one? Where does Revelation fit in your life? Where do you fit in Revelation? Do you believe in Revelation literally? Do you think that it is mandated (destiny)? Is there hope, or is all lost, and it is merely a matter of time?

These are the issues I would enjoy discussing with you.

I ask that we remember, there are no wrong answers, as the future is not set in stone (even Revelation states the equivilent of this), only what could be, should we continue on a certain path.

We can start with Chapter 1, or can jump around. Let's discuss...

v/r

Q

 

[Basstian]

LOL I really like the way you put this in question what does it mean to me.

I have often looked at Revelations as one of the curosity of the Bible. I am not certian on this but would be willing to bet it was added because the translators where sure they understood it. I am not saying it doesnt belong

But the fact remains everytime the church in the past has said something for certian about the book things change or the date for the event passes or something big like a war or a leader makes them rethink their position.

I am beginning to become certian myself of a few things. I really feel the lands talked about are the actual place and not spiritual in nature when it says Babylon it means Babylon Armegeddon it means the real valley. I may be wrong but have found no evidence that we should think otherwise.

I dont think "come up hither" is anything more than the angel saying John follow me I will show you something. I dont see it as a call or in anyway having anything to do with a rapture.

Its a fun book to talk about but a very easy book to get led astray with I dont base alot of what I feel is sound doctrine off of it. Not that I discount it but just dont feel I am anybetter than those who have come before me and been wrong.

 

[Bandit]

i see it as a book of past, present & future. i can honestly say I only understand chapters 12 & 13 and the first 4 chapters and a little bit here and there. it does tie in with the rest of the bible. it is my favortie book next to the book of Acts. i am thankful it was added to the bible and it is one of the purest book in the bible next to Acts. the rest of the bible supports it and Revelations supports the rest of the bible.

the things John saw were in visions and sometimes more than one vision at a time. there is no way he could have understood some of these things that would be in our day, but wrote to the best that he could as to what he saw and what was spoken to him.

i feel it gives a big picture and overview of the things God would like for us to know. i feel it was written especially for our present day as is the entire bible. i have read Revelations probably 200 times straight through and studied it many times and still do not get it all but i know it speaks the truth.
i feel it will be revealed little by little to individuals as God would have it to be, when it is time for them.

The testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bandit]

We can do these if you guys want to...then someone else can do the next verses or talk about these...however you want is fine by me.

This is just a brief overview of what God gave to John to prepare to write saying who he is...the Apostle John and about the revelation and testimony of Jesus Christ and things will come to pass. i think John wrote this chapter after the other chapters.

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

here is showing it is a prophecy

1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

which is, and which was, and which is to come this is talking about the power of God and we see it again later in refernce to the earthly powers of man.Jesus loved us and we are washed from sin in his own blood.Here we see John is writing to and about the 7 churches in Asia and it is from the 7 spirits of God -CANDLESTICKS- (found in Is. 11)

11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

this shows our postions in God like we are royalty. i think clouds here is refering to people not literal clouds and everyone will see him even those who killed him and rejected him.

1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

he is writing for the testimony of Jesus Christ and i feel the alpha & omega is refering to the beginning and ending of man, because God has no beginning or ending but man does...and this is God the Almighty-- IN, By and through--- the man Jesus.

1:10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
1:11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

not sure what the Lords day means unless it is refering to a specific time frame?...but is most likely during a time of man. Gods voice has often sounded like a trumpet, clear back to when He spoke on Mt. Sinai.

alpha omega, first and last is God. I also see this as type and this refering to the first man made Adam, and the last man made who is Jesus.
Jesus is the first and the last A to Z, in many ways.

1Cor.15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. {...24-44 omitted}
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Ok.. Did I happen to say I love Revelation? I love it! When I was 12 I first learned of the end times and all its prophecies and I really believe that the Lord has given me a desire to study it and learn as much as I can about it. I have always felt that it will happen in this generation or the next even when I was 12 and much wasnt matching up except for the fact that the Jews had their land once again.

Like Q said you cannot effectively study Revelation without Ezekiel Jeremiah Daniel and Zechariah.

I do not believe that anyone can set a time for it to begin.. God is the one that giveth and taketh away.. I do believe that God can and has and might possibly change his mind at anytime. He is merciful and good and He wants everyone to come to him before His wrath is meted out.

 

[lunamoth]

I've read Revelation a few times but would hardly say I'm well versed in it. I'll be interested in reading the discussion.

From my Study NIV (I'm typing this in so please forgive the typos etc.):

Interpreters of Revelation normally fall into four groups:

1. Preterists understand the book exclusively in terms of its first-century setting, claiming that most of its events have already taken place.

2. Historicists take it as describing the long chain of events from Patmos to the end of history.

3. Futurists place the book primaily in the end times.

4. Idealists view it as symbolic pictures of such timeless truths as the victory of good over evil.

Fortunately, the fundamental truths of Revelation do not depend on adopting a particular point of view. They are avialable to anyone who will read the book for its overall message and resist the temptation to become overly enamored with the details.

I tend to be somewhere between the Historicists and the Idealists, leaning more toward the Idealists. I think some/most of the details came out of history, but the Truth is timeless. Actually, I think we are living in the End Times, but we only see it in glimmers.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[Bandit]

Ok.. Did I happen to say I love Revelation? I love it! When I was 12 I first learned of the end times and all its prophecies and I really believe that the Lord has given me a desire to study it and learn as much as I can about it. I have always felt that it will happen in this generation or the next even when I was 12 and much wasnt matching up except for the fact that the Jews had their land once again.

yah. it was 12 for me too. i thought they were monsters like Godzilla with huge necks that could stretch from russia to the states and eat the people , but now i see how the long neck is in a different way, through earthly powers.

Interpreters of Revelation normally fall into four groups:

1. Preterists understand the book exclusively in terms of its first-century setting, claiming that most of its events have already taken place.

if this is literal heaven {kingdom on earth}, then we dont have much to look forward to because i still have 35 years of physical labor before i retire in THIS heaven.
i know some really believe this is literal heaven right now and Jesus already came.

 

[truthseeker]

In regard to lunamoth's post, I think I believe within all the categories.

I happen to think of Revelations as a book that descripes past, present, future in regard to the nations of the earth and how Christianity (or our walk with God) was, is, and will be effected by how government is run. What the author speaks of is prophesy - we are still living in the times in which Revelation describes. The book is phenomenal writing. Mankind is on the brink of destroying himself. Jesus, Lord of Lords and King of Kings will come to rescue those who have believed in him; from all the turmoil that evil has inflicted upon those who don't have a choice but to live only to be martyred. The author speaks of the things that was going on when he wrote it - Christianity did have a hard time for a long time. He talks about the things that are still going on - though technology is different the mind set of man and government really hasn't changed much. He talks about the things that will be if the mindset of man doesn't change. He leaves us with hope for those who follow Jesus that He will soon come to rescue his flock.

 

[Bandit]

I am putting these up for someone who wants to tell what they see in it.All I am going to say is I see Jesus in the middle of the candlesticks, holding them & his voice is like many waters (people) & his feet are strong polished brass. Verse 19 show past present & future again.

What about his hair and eyes? the 7 stars & 7...

Any takers??

1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

[didymus]

I am putting these up for someone who wants to tell what they see in it.All I am going to say is I see Jesus in the middle of the candlesticks, holding them & his voice is like many waters (people) & his feet are strong polished brass. Verse 19 show past present & future again.

What about his hair and eyes? the 7 stars & 7...

Any takers??

1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
1:19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Verse 1:15 reminds me of Daniel 10:4-6

I took the liberty of looking up some occasions with the number 7. Also to note that in Hebrew the number 7 represents completeness. It was the seventh day God rested having completed the outward work of creating the universe.

Genesis 7:2 You shall take with you seven each of every animal, both male and female

Joshua 6:4 Have seven priests carry trumpets of ram's horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets.

1Kings 19:18 Yet I reserve 7 thousand in Israel all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him.

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say we will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace.

There are more but I have to run.

 

[truthseeker]

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say we will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace.

I know it's a bit off the subject but I never noticed this scripture before. Very interesting for the bigomy section... Prophecy, Prophecy...

 

[truthseeker]

1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Seven nations worshipping Jesus.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

The seven stars are the seven churches.

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

I guess that's self explanatory.This passage brings hope to Christians who were then very heavily persecuted for their faith.

 

[didymus]

I wanted to add this earlier but didn't have time. In Hebrew all numbers and letters are interconnected in meaning and symbolism. The number 7 is Zayin in the Hebrew alphabet (pronounced zi'yin).

Zayin has a numerical value of 7 and represents completness. Zayin also means assertiveness and power and is related to the Hebrew root for arms and weapons. Therefore zayin is a paradox symbollizing rest, peace and a weapon of war.

I think this is meaningful when reading Revelations.

The Seventh Seal and the Golden Censer 8:1
The Seventh Trumpet 11:2
Seven Angels with Seven Plagues 15:1
Seven Bowls of God's Wrath 16:1
I read through these briefly and don't understand what they mean entirely but they sure liked the number 7.

 

[truthseeker]

Interesting point, didymus.

 

[Quahom1]

I present the first and second to the last paragraph of this "book" for your consideration. Then I'll give my reasons.

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what, must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw-that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."



"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."



One question is, who is John? If it is the same "John" who wrote the Gospel of John, then we may have a slight problem, as it is recognized that John could not have possibly written the Gospel (100 years after the death of Jesus). If it is a different "John" then who is this mysterious author? John here is described as a servant, not a diciple or Apostle.

Another question is, what is soon? 2000 years later and this has not taken place (yet), However, 2000 years is about to 20 percent of the total amount of "time" that the Bible alludes to man being on Earth.


Why is this Book described as the word of God, and the Testimony of Jesus Christ? In otherwords why is Jesus and God seperarted here. The term testimony implies witnessing an event. The word of God implies a statement of fact.


Why is there a different set of standards (in blessings) between those who read the words of this prophecy and those who hear and take to heart the words of this prophecy?

Now here is the kicker. The warning not to change one word in this "book" apparently applies to only this book, and not the other 65 "books" that make up the "Bible" (Didymus must be pleased)


If one adds to the book, they shall be stricken with "sicknesses" of all sorts, but if they take away from the book, they shall lose their share of eternal life, and citizenship in the new holy city? Pretty severe differences in the punishments received for altering this "book".


Finally, of all the 66 accepted books of main stream Bible, why has this one not really been messed with by anyone?

v/r

Q

 

[truthseeker]

Another question is, what is soon? 2000 years later and this has not taken place (yet), However, 2000 years is about to 20 percent of the total amount of "time" that the Bible alludes to man being on Earth.

It was taking place when he wrote it. It has been taking place and it will continue to take place. It will be done when Jesus comes to take his flock. God has always been there and time as we know it is not an issue to Him. We are on His time - though we are getting pretty antsy looking at the clock and all (the measured time between day and night).

Why is there a different set of standards (in blessings) between those who read the words of this prophecy and those who hear and take to heart the words of this prophecy?

Because those who hear it are impressed; those who take to heart the words of this prophesy shall have no fear in believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

Finally, of all the 66 accepted books of main stream Bible, why has this one not really been messed with by anyone?

Because we're scared. The book has already given you warning.
Would anyone like to go up against God? I would lend you mine but my sword is currently out of order and my shield won't hold up.

 

[lunamoth]

Dear Q, I'm with you, more questions than answers. As we go I think we will see that things can be construed in so many different ways. Big picture what I see in Revelations are 1) a comfort to Christians and as we will see later an encouragment not to lose faith in the face of perils material and spiritual, 2) a warning, and specifically a warning against placing our trust in the world rather than in God, and a warning about being greedy and oppressive, same problems the Israelites had in their wealthy heyday (Isaiah), and 3) a reminder, and ode really, of the power and might of God, and ultimate hope in the victory of God.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[Bandit]

Dear Q, I'm with you, more questions than answers. As we go I think we will see that things can be construed in so many different ways. Big picture what I see in Revelations are 1) a comfort to Christians and as we will see later an encouragment not to lose faith in the face of perils material and spiritual, 2) a warning, and specifically a warning against placing our trust in the world rather than in God, and a warning about being greedy and oppressive, same problems the Israelites had in their wealthy heyday (Isaiah), and 3) a reminder, and ode really, of the power and might of God, and ultimate hope in the victory of God.

peace,
lunamoth

i am totally with you on this Lunamoth
i am also seeing it as a chance for those who sit on the fence post to make it during tribulation and great tribulation.

 

[Quahom1]

Great! Time to get into chapter 1...

 

[Bandit]

Another question is, what is soon? 2000 years later and this has not taken place (yet), However, 2000 years is about to 20 percent of the total amount of "time" that the Bible alludes to man being on Earth.

yes. I think it is like a crescendo on signs and sounds for the believers. seems like the timeline would be a bit more than 20% for man (modern man anyway)
unless you are thinking the end of the 7000 years of man.

Why is there a different set of standards (in blessings) between those who read the words of this prophecy and those who hear and take to heart the words of this prophecy?

i am not sure on this. i am blessed by the entire 66 books. I am thinking again that these are people who are serious & not playing the cat & mouse games of the world, who truly do love the Lord & His people & want to be a part the bride of Christ and attend the marriage supper & wedding feast...and Revelations is trying to speak to us, but many do not listen. Later we see with the 7 churches...
HE THAT HATH AN EAR LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES.

Finally, of all the 66 accepted books of main stream Bible, why has this one not really been messed with by anyone?

Acts went in at the same time. I dont think Rome got the chance to mess with it. (so to speak) unless you are talking about all the new translations today? not sure how it applies but I know the same exact commandment went into the book of Dueteronomy way back with Moses. not to add or take away a word.!.

One question is, who is John? If it is the same "John" who wrote the Gospel of John, then we may have a slight problem, as it is recognized that John could not have possibly written the Gospel (100 years after the death of Jesus). If it is a different "John" then who is this mysterious author? John here is described as a servant, not a diciple or Apostle.

not sure what you mean by mysterious here, i give or take a little on the dates given to us for the writings of the books. Peter & Paul are called servants you know. Jesus was called a servant & so was God mentioned as one as in TO SERVE US, i think in Isaiah.
it could be a different John, but i dont think so. Jesus called them & i think he knew they had a special purpose in all this, that they would fulfill.

Why is this Book described as the word of God, and the Testimony of Jesus Christ? In otherwords why is Jesus and God seperarted here. The term testimony implies witnessing an event. The word of God implies a statement of fact.

well, you know i am one of the few who does not believe Jesus is God (rather excercising the authority) but i dont really see them as seperated here. I see Jesus as the express image of the invisible God... i think Jesus is the living Word of God in testimony. the bible is the written Word, & God is the spoken Word... as in

"And God said let there be..."

IMHO- i dont think we will ever see God, but Jesus is who we will see.
When we get there, we wont be seperate either . i cant explain how.

i am just kind of talking here. i do not have all the answers to these questions.