Why would a God who is perfect create an imperfect world?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by robocombot, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. robocombot

    robocombot Disciple

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    Simple question. Maybe the answer is simple.

    All of us here who believe there is only one God also believe that God is perfect.

    No doubt we all also believe the world is imperfect, in that evil is very real and that humankind is rebelling against God.

    However, the reason for that imperfection we may have different views on.

    Most of us here would believe in satan/iblis/lucifer (although we see him differently) and the answer that relates to us now may be that evil is allowed for us to be tempted by him.

    But I would like a focus on why evil was allowed/planned/tolerated to enter the world in the first place. Why create an imperfect world.
     
  2. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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  3. robocombot

    robocombot Disciple

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    i never thought to see it that way, thankyou.

    isnt there a Proverb of Solomon, which i paraphrase:

    God created everything for his purpose, even the wicked for punishment.
     
  4. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    I am not certain. I'm not very familiar with Proverbs. I was not commiting myself to that particular way of thought but placing it in contrast with the other. I am unwilling to settle on either possibility. But I find both just equally compelling.

    Dauer
     
  5. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i think God made it perfect.

    Man is the one who messes things up. I dont see earth as a perfect place. But I believe God is perfect, just, holy & righteous.
     
  6. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    I believe God created a perfect world, and that the creation of God is still perfect. In that, what humans do not choose through free will is exactly as it is meant to be. I look at each rose in my garden, each tree in my local mountains, each rain drop... and it is all perfect and beautiful. Even illness, death, etc. is not imperfection to me. They are processes that are also imbued with life.

    I believe much of our suffering and the world's imperfections are a result of humans' choices.

    I believe that us humans tend to fail to turn consistently toward God, to listen to the Divine voice that tells us in each moment the path of best action and that helps us grow spiritually. It is not just about moral codes for me, but rather about the best action to take in all things. My experience has been that when I humble myself, still my mind, and open my heart with a willingness to follow this path of best action, I am aware of the right choices. It's up to me to be disciplined in listening to and acting in accordance with this Divine voice.

    I truly believe that if everyone in the world truly listened to God, loved one another and loved God with all their hearts and minds and souls, the world would come close to the perfection it is naturally without the influence of our poor choices. Idealistic? Yes, but I say that without an ideal, we have no inspiration. In acting idealistically, things could only get better.
     
  7. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Well what if the imperfection that we percieve is not an imperfection , but just an anomaly that we cant comprehend , & is still a part of the equation ??

    As for Satan , according to Islamic thought , he disobeyed God when God asked him to bow to Adam , saying that I am superior than him . God said " go down , heaven is not for U " . Satan said something like " Give me time to prove myself " . And permission was granted by God . The problem is that if God didnt permit him , he would have reason to say that even God didnt allow me to prove my point . Not a good thing to be said about the most just , all merciful .

    Humans , according to sufi thought , R formed of a soul ( that is pure ) that has been sent down into a material body , which is the source of imperfection /anomaly. But thats body is also the source of our wild freewill that makes us unique .

    So again , I would see it all as part of the program . Though we tend to use our freewill very selfishly & spread menace around us , but still , thats what the life/test is supposed to be , leaving all the selfishness/egocenterdness behind , obeying God & working for the betterment of all humanity . Thats the reason why God has been running this world with a minimum interference policy . Though sometimes everybody thinks " why doesnt God stop them " , but thats what freewill is all about , making right choices .
     
  8. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Indeed. :)

    All too often it seems we humans seem to presume our perception should be The Objective Standard Against Which All Things Are Measured.
     
  9. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    why does the world have to be perfect? if we are imperfect, that is because such conditions are necessary for the exercise of free-will. that's what i think the sages were getting at when they suggested the universe as a way for the Divine to Reflect.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  10. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Member

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    This is a very fundamental question and this question is a very big puzzle in my mind.This question still bothers me.Often this question leads ppl to atheism.But the evidence for God existence is far more than this one unsolved puzzle.

    Firstly i disagree with ppl who said World is perfect.The world is not perfect in many ways.For e.g it's only because of second law of therodynamics we have so much environmetnal crisis.We can't convert completely heat into work.Much of the heat is lost causing environment pollution.And the ozone layer is breaking because of this.And this is also obvious for human beings.
    It's obvious God didnot make this world a perfect world or the present world is not a perfect world.Free will leads to imperfection in world.But there is a prob.What exactly is free will?.Does not the God knows what ppl r doing or will do?.There is a theory of quantum mechanics that says
    "If you know everything about the present,You can know everything about the future".Perhaps religious ppl call it fate.But why is there an evil in the world?.
    Satan disobeys God,that's fine but again doesnot the God know in advance satan is going to disobey?.I mean God made satan in this way or it was some other reason?.or you call it some enigmatic free will?.I believe there must be some logical answer to all the questions that comes into human mind.
     
  11. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    I do not believe that the human mind can comprehend God and his ways.
     
  12. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Member

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    "The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible"---Einstein.
     
  13. Knowledge

    Knowledge New Member

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    Robocombot,

    In the opening sentence of your post, I noticed that you said this:

    "Simple question. Maybe a simple answer."

    I find that pretty funny, but also very true. Here's the answer to your question by the way:

    Who ever said that God created a imperfect world? The truth is, God created EVERYTHING; both seen and unseen, and it was PERFECT! But, just as there are consequences for breaking laws in the natural, breaking spiritual laws caused certain effects to take place. The effect from braking God's law was the sin curse. It was this curse that caused imperfection. God however, has a plan to fix everything. Come to Jesus that you may know and be apart of his plan.

    Later,

    Knowledge
     
  14. Marcion

    Marcion New Member

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    Most early Christians were divided because of this very subject. The Judeo-Christians of Peter/James/John's apostilic line believed the God Yahweh created the world, but the Pauline Christians believed Satanael created the world after he was banished from the Kingdom of Light, and boasted that he was the only God (Yahweh). Gnostics would also agree with the latter statement, just in a different way, while Orthadox christians would have no trouble agreeing with the former one.

    I believe the world is imperfect yes. I believe in God and Satan, that Satan was the first created being, the highest archangel he was almost equal to God in that respect. He wants to be like God and so he created his own heaven to be like God's Heaven and our material universe is a part of his kingdom that he created, after his banishment from the Light in which he rebelled. He is capable of directing our own destinies and our fates. He is our father and god who created us. Those who wish to follow him may do so freely.

    I do not believe the Father wanted Satanael or the angelic host he took away to be annihilated, I think the Father still loves his children and just let them go after the rebellion, because our Father in Heaven is all compassionate and kind. I think He always gives His children a chance. I do not think Satan and his angels are completely evil, but they are often hostile and cruel, especially to mankind who they rule over. I have sorrow and remorse for Satanael actually (just as I think God does), who was once the most beautiful angel in Heaven. But with all that sorrow there is also shame and disgust for him.

    In all do respect, I believe the Heavenly Father is all perfect and Good, and He wishes no ill will on any creature. I believe that He is incapable of causing pain and suffering, for that is not His way. The Father realized what Satan created and eventually He decided to send the young archangel Michael to the world in the form of Jesus Christ to help those of mankind who wish to leave Satan's universe and come to live with the Heavenly Father in eternal Peace and Solace. It is up to mankind to who they wish to follow.

    Anyway to answer the topic question would God create an imperfect universe, the answer I believe is no. It was not God who created it, but the Elohim (angels) of the old testament with their archangel Satanael....
     
  15. freind

    freind New Member

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    hi Ali,
    i believe that this creation is perfect and that all the bad is due to mankinds [and jins] sins. it is we who are responsible for the pollution of the ozone etc, and that fits into the equation of perfect as it will be unperfect for us not to suffer consequences of our evil and irresponsible deeds.
    although God knows the future, that is no reason why God should not allow this perfect creation to exist, as it will not be Gods fault when creatures with free will commit evil as they have free will and for the fact that they have been pre-warned by God, of the consequences of evil. and if its not Gods fault, then faultlessness is...perfection
     
  16. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    Evil is tolaratedbecause rebellion (of satan). against Gods way of ruling(mankind), brought up the issue of universal sovreignty, and who is the rightful ruler of this universe, Jehovah knows that he is the rightful ruler , but it has got to be proved once and forall that mankind was not created to rule himself independent of God .
    I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step(jeremiah 10;3)

    Ezek. 38:17, 23: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘ . . . And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah

    No wonder that 1 John 5:19 says: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." But his power is only for a limited period of time and is only by the toleration of Jehovah, who is God Almighty.

    "And in the days of those kings (human rulership)the God of heaven will set up a kingdom (goverment)that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite(daniel 2;44)

    (Psalm 110:5) Jehovah himself at your right hand Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger

    For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with YOU(romans 16;20)

    Next, the end, when he (Jesus)hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power(1 corinthians 15;24)so Gods name and his right to rule will be vindicated ,it has got to be proved that Jehovah is the true God and not satan ,the resister and opposer.

















     
  17. believer142

    believer142 New Member

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    God did not create an imperfect world but he did create free will. An imperfect world exists when there is an abscence of good(evil) and the use of free will is manipulated. Evil is the absense of good juss like cold is the absence of heat. Both dont exist.

    God probably created free will so we can search our hearts to seek him. Otherwise, we would believe in him because we are obligated and not becuase we love him.
     
  18. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Active Member

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    i dont think the word perfect is the correct word to use. trying to define God and his creation with one word that you find in the English language is inadequate at best.

    For one, you would have to have another God to say that the first God is imperfect or perfect.. with nothing to compare the first one with.. this word doesnt work. God is God, he is Almighty and Holy. Look at the universe, the vastness of space and the number of stars.. that is just a thought and a word to God.
     
  19. smkolins

    smkolins Bahá'í

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    Like every baby and adolescent.
     
  20. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    I believe that everything God created was perfect, including everything that has now become evil. However, my view is that all living things were also holy and pure.

    For living things to be holy and pure, it means that they cannot commit evil and they cannot think evil thoughts.

    All living things, including God, the angels He created (divine beings) and human beings (mortals) have instincts. Instincts define a being's character and personality. Good instincts are things like love, patience, kindness, generosity, etc. Evil instincts are the opposite -- hatred, greed, arrogance, selfishness, lust, etc.

    This relates to what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, Galatians 5:16-26 and Colossians 3:5-11.

    So, the question is, how did evil enter our universe?

    One theory was that the angel Lucifer was the beginning of all evil.

    Lucifer was one of the brightest, most beautiful and most handsome angels that God had created. He was also one of the most intelligent.

    Intelligence doesn't mean that a person will never do evil. It's actually the other way around. It's a sign of intelligence for people to do either the right thing or to do the wrong thing. Good character is a sign of intelligence, but bad character is also a sign of intelligence.

    So how did Lucifer become evil? He used his intelligence to justify evil. That made him feel smart about himself. He started to justify other kinds of evil too. What he did was actually quite dangerous. Sure, Lucifer was just showing off, but that also made him arrogant.

    Lucifer even justified his own arrogance. King Solomon was very much like Lucifer in that he had abundant wisdom but he become too proud.

    Lucifer and Solomon are examples of how WISE GUYS can become corrupt. They become too wise for their own good.

    In this sense Lucifer was perfect in what God made him to be, even to the point where Lucifer, by his own choice, becomes arrogant and corrupt.

    Also, Lucifer was an angel. Angels are far more powerful than human beings, when they choose to change their character or personality, their choice is final.

    Lucifer became Satan, the Father of Lies. Lucifer, with his newfound ability to justify evil, deceived himself in believing that he could not become evil himself. By deceiving himself he became the Deceiver.

    He caused Adam to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So Adam inherits the same newfound evil that Lucifer already has.

    From then until now he has continued this foolish and stupid behaviour and has come to be known as the Devil.

    Satan is really serving God's purposes. We can learn from evil. If we have never seen hatred, selfishness, arrogance, greed, etc., how can we know how horrible it is?

    We've seen what it does to the world. Evil may be a sign of intelligence and but it is also the stupidest kind of intelligence we will ever know. And yet we fall for it because we think we're so smart. Good and evil are the difference between true and false wisdom.

    Evil must come first before we can be accepted into God's kingdom.
     

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