Would paradise on earth really be paradise?

iBrian

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Re: Heaven is it for Real?

Imagine an earth where humanity experiences no suffering, no pain, no death, no disease, no illness, no loss or want for anything...

Sometimes various cultures suggest this as a state of paradise - but would it be so?

When you consider what physical existence would entail under such considerations of "perfection", in my opinion all you would have is the complete stagnation of humanity.

If there is no sickness or death, no problems to solve, then what is there to aspire to? What boundaries would there be to break and surpass? It is hard to imagine anyone having anything but the most banal and mundane motivations. The human species would be in a state of living death, moving forward to nothing, aspiring to nothing, and never attempting to break the bonds of its own physical restrictions.

Additionally, eternal life as a physical human being would be the ultimate punishment - forever separate from God, trapped in this limited and restrictive vessel, with no Heaven or transcendence of experience to perhaps look forward to.

When you look at the universe, in all its complexities and degrees of scale, then the idea that there is nothing more within each one of us but a cluster of cells that function and die is perhaps one of the most unimaginative visions of all.

And whilst there are many different interpretations of what vision for humanity may be, whether it is Christian or Buddhist, Islamic or Confucian, Jewish or Wiccan, there is one clear theme among them all - we must all strive to become the best that we may be.

Without that sense of striving, what human spirit is there left to aspire with?

Just my 2c. :)
 
Re: Heaven is it for Real?

If there is no sickness or death, no problems to solve, then what is there to aspire to? What boundaries would there be to break and surpass? It is hard to imagine anyone having anything but the most banal and mundane motivations.
Ahh but we are psychically limited other wise I would be able to fly, or run as fast as I like, but not are we psychically limited but also limited in our mind. Therefore we can not comprehend what heaven can possibly be like, it's just a job to follow our hearts and decide how much we want to view paradise. I often see as we have more then 2 eyes, we have 6 or so eyes, after death more of our eyes will open, but that also during life we decide how many we want to open.
 
Re: Heaven is it for Real?

Split from the other thread, and slightly edited to make more sense. :)
 
Re: Heaven is it for Real?

I said:
Imagine an earth where humanity experiences no suffering, no pain, no death, no disease, no illness, no loss or want for anything...

Sometimes various cultures suggest this as a state of paradise - but would it be so?
Thinking... How are we sure that we still will have the same conscious

I said:
When you consider what physical existence would entail under such considerations of "perfection", in my opinion all you would have is the complete stagnation of humanity.
Even if it is so, that will only head us to forward. Think about it İ-Brian, its like mediation, nothing to worry about however you are living :) Isnt that simple, isn't what you so called progresses are in motion to reach that situation?

I said:
If there is no sickness or death, no problems to solve, then what is there to aspire to? What boundaries would there be to break and surpass? It is hard to imagine anyone having anything but the most banal and mundane motivations. The human species would be in a state of living death, moving forward to nothing, aspiring to nothing, and never attempting to break the bonds of its own physical restrictions.
Hey if there is anyone that afraids to die, that should be me here, not you. I am tasting all the forbiddens, I am pushing my limits and I would be the one that concern about the banality waiting for me. Oh, no this was Heaven :)

Pick up a daisy, there the new one pops-up, hey pick up more and make a crest. Or make something, do you think nature will be finished by observing. It did already? :lol: Then why are we still here?

I said:
Additionally, eternal life as a physical human being would be the ultimate punishment - forever separate from God, trapped in this limited and restrictive vessel, with no Heaven or transcendence of experience to perhaps look forward to.

When you look at the universe, in all its complexities and degrees of scale, then the idea that there is nothing more within each one of us but a cluster of cells that function and die is perhaps one of the most unimaginative visions of all.
You will be informed that it exists of course, that there is someone that is protecting, you WILL KNOW the whyness of your being. Dull? Hey Come'n...

I said:
And whilst there are many different interpretations of what vision for humanity may be, whether it is Christian or Buddhist, Islamic or Confucian, Jewish or Wiccan, there is one clear theme among them all - we must all strive to become the best that we may be.
What if I dont want do? Does that mean that I can not as well?

I said:
Without that sense of striving, what human spirit is there left to aspire with?

Just my 2c. :)
Ermm I may get the last part wrong, however are you trying to say that Nietzche (lets say) should not be able to write anything? Or what sense of striving are you emphasizing?

Regards,

Excuse my language if sounded rude, i Was a figurene insult/flame/lame/hate forums for couple of months ))
 
To just play all day in a joyful bliss and adorn myself with flowers and use a real clay body mask that I don't have to pay for is a tempting thought. But forever is a long time. Once my skin gets smooth from the body mask, what next? I'll start building my house to the sky; still trying to get as close to God as I can.
Extra long life in this body is one thing - you know, so I can have more time to figure out how to get to God in one lifetime. But eternal life in this body? The only thing that turns me on about that is doing all the things that, religiously, I'm not supposed to do. To have more time to make the most money. Hey! If I could just, mortally, live the age of 29 for 10 years I'd be COOL! But most progressive types know that you have to give up the level you're standing on to advance to the next level.

If I am saying it correctly, I read a post of Vajradhara's that said something like spirit taking on flesh (ultimately) due to craving. Anyone who can't control their weight can relate to that (not to down play the message, Vajradhara). Progressive energy thrown in all the wrong places. It is the nature of the spirit - God is progressive too. Atoms are progressive - the atomic table shows us that. That is why man can not live by bread alone. That is why it was not good for Adam to be alone and he was made a help-meet.

Paradise is reaching the point/place/time you would rather be in other than the point that you are at. Isn't Tahiti considered a paradise? And some people live there, Wow. But I bet they are looking for paradise on earth too because they are tired of climbing trees and getting coconuts for your lazy rich butt. Will someone be fetching our food for us in this new paradise on earth? Will the huge beautiful homes already be built? If I will be getting these things for myself, then I'm sure I can find paradise somewhere right now.
 
I posted my views in the other thread on the same subject, but suffice it to say that I'm not a huge fan of corporeality. I would not want to be corporeal for eternity, even in a body that is the new-and-improved version. I've had a couple times in this lifetime that I had visions in which I distinctly left my body and dissolved into a non-corporeal spirit thingie, and it was tremendously freeing. I don't want physical immortality, I want transformation.

That said, I think part of the reason we're all here on earth is to grow spiritually, to be creative, to be our unique selves. When we're ready to move on from that process, then we are ready to be in God's presence. Heaven to me is simply being fully in God's presence. There, time ceases to exist. Physicality ceases to exist. In a way, we cease to exist. My sense of it is not that we entirely cease to exist (as in Buddhist thought), but more like we are completely transformed, so the "us" we would recognize is no more. We exist as our pure selves, as our soul, which is in constant union with God and with everything else that was ever created. Tough to explain... At this point, the emphasis is not on progressing. It is simply being in the presence of Being.
 
Paradox often seems to be the heart of reality. And often it is stories that open understanding for me...........stories that I reflect upon over and over again. Reading through this thread bought to mind the following story, which seems to bring some light to it.......

Master Shaku Soen liked to take an evening stroll through a nearby village. One day he heard loud lamentations from a house and, on entering quietly, realized that the householder had died and the family and neigbours were crying. He sat down and cried with them. An old man noticed him and remarked, rather shaken on seeing the famous master crying with them:" I would have thought that you at least were beyond such things." "But it is this which puts me beyond it," replied the master with a sob.

What is it to be in "heaven"?...............in this world or the next!
 
Paradise
Whatever we do, we'll pay the price
In the depths of hell or in paradise
For the believer, this life is just like a cage
For the unbeliever, it's the ultimate stage
Little does he know about the awaiting reward
Which is full of luxuries, where no-one gets bored
You'll enter the gate of paradise, if it's in your fate
Your deeds and actions will determine by which gate
No worldly things will you ever miss
On entering the gate, you'll be surrounded by bliss
Four rivers will be granted by the Divine
containing water and milk, honey and wine
People will live in mansions built high
Where they'll live forever, no-one will die
It's bricks will be made of silver and gold
The climate will be perfect, not hot and not cold
A hundred years it will take to circle a tree
Surrounded by loved ones for all eternity
There will be no calls of nature, no-one will sleep
There will be no worries, no one will weep
When people sweat, it will smell of musk
Allah swt will be praised from dawn till dusk
Everyone will be aged 30 or 33
And they'll stay at that age for eternity
The inhabitants will be wearing a beautiful green gown
Sitting on thrones, wearing a crown
People will be happy, there'll be no remorse
To visit others, they'll have a flying horse
Men will have 2 houris as their wives
Who will remain with them for the rest of their lives
On Friday there will be a dinner for people of all races
And a bazaar where people can exchange their faces!
When walking along there'll be many meetings
With prophets and angels, exchanging greetings
Such is the ecstasy that will then prevail
When Allah swt removes His veil
There will be no kings, there will be no peasants
And everyone will see the Divine Allah's presence
There are 100 levels to paradise and we should pray
That Al Firdaus, the highest will be where we stay
Allah swt has showered us with His grace
And we have to be worthy to show our face
Whatever we do ,we'll pay the price
In the depths of hell or in paradise
 
path_of_one said:
I posted my views in the other thread on the same subject, but suffice it to say that I'm not a huge fan of corporeality. I would not want to be corporeal for eternity, even in a body that is the new-and-improved version. I've had a couple times in this lifetime that I had visions in which I distinctly left my body and dissolved into a non-corporeal spirit thingie, and it was tremendously freeing. I don't want physical immortality, I want transformation.

That said, I think part of the reason we're all here on earth is to grow spiritually, to be creative, to be our unique selves. When we're ready to move on from that process, then we are ready to be in God's presence. Heaven to me is simply being fully in God's presence. There, time ceases to exist. Physicality ceases to exist. In a way, we cease to exist. My sense of it is not that we entirely cease to exist (as in Buddhist thought), but more like we are completely transformed, so the "us" we would recognize is no more. We exist as our pure selves, as our soul, which is in constant union with God and with everything else that was ever created. Tough to explain... At this point, the emphasis is not on progressing. It is simply being in the presence of Being.
Path-of-one, sometimes I feel like one of those characters from the Old Testament who might cry out for a "vision," though can't say I ever had one.;) Occasionally, I have had an intuitive nudge that suggested to me that taking form more clearly reveals the depths of the spirit, "form as formlessness, formlessness as form." That is to use the metaphor of a river channel, seems as like when the flow of water becomes channeled through tighter river channels-encounters greater "form," the flow intensifies in force, so too does it seem that the form of this existence can act upon and reveal the workings of spirit more clearly. Of course, as per the typical buddhhist koan, we can ask ourselves "who" or "what" is edified in the process? There is a misconception I believe even among buddhists regarding what the Buddha actually taught regarding "absence of self," or "anatta." A Theravadin bikkhu-contemporary monk-by name of Thanissaro Bhikku-wrote an interesting short piece entitled "The Not-Self Strategy," that made the useful distinction that what Buddha seemed to be teaching was simply that we aren't what we take ourselves to be-that we erroneously associate all the contents and processes of ourselves as definitive of "who we are" & he was simply teaching a means to get beyond all that: a "not self strategy," not a no-self" strategy:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself.html

In fact, in part you could say that an aspect of spirituality is one long ongoing quest(ion) of asking ourselves that: "who am I without all the assumptions and beliefs?" Of, if you start from a theisitic direction: "who/what is God without all the assumptions and beliefs?" My guess is that the ultimate meeting ground of those 2 lines is the silence of the Void or the cloud of unknowing. Take care, Earl
 
It seems to me, we get the Heaven we want / need.

As I, Brian said at the beginning,

When you consider what physical existence would entail under such considerations of "perfection", in my opinion all you would have is the complete stagnation of humanity.... Without that sense of striving, what human spirit is there left to aspire with?
Maybe that's the point.

'We' cannot get into (create) our idea of Heaven, whatever it is, until we are ready for that.

If we accept the 'Non-Duality' idea, that there is one Consciousness creating this, now; maybe Heaven is already here. This is one 'being's' creation for it-self to enjoy. Maybe Heaven is not a place as much as a state of mind, within the one mind. This then creates the place 'outside' in the senses.

There would also have to be a clearing out of the mind and emotions at some point, because if I was stuck for eternity with a bunch of people still talking about 'The good old days', still filled with hates and resentments or reliving in their imagination all their apparent failures down 'here', it would drive me mad. :)
 
Are you talking about life after death? Life in the Kingdom of God. Life after the resurrection? The flesh can not enter the Kingdom. One can not be human and enter paradise, if one is saying paradise is the Kingdom of God. Flesh and blood can not be part of God's Kingdom here on earth. One must be changed from corrupted to incorruptible. From flesh and blood into Spirit. I believe in what the scriptures say and scripture says flesh can not enter the kingdom of God. Now what are we doing in this paradise i do not know, But I sure it won't be boreing or mundane.

Darren
 
This is slightly off topic (sorry). I was thinking the other day that my favorite thing to do is to learn new things. I am hoping that I never stop learning even in what we call paradise.
 
I Brian said:
If there is no sickness or death, no problems to solve, then what is there to aspire to? What boundaries would there be to break and surpass? It is hard to imagine anyone having anything but the most banal and mundane motivations. The human species would be in a state of living death, moving forward to nothing, aspiring to nothing, and never attempting to break the bonds of its own physical restrictions.
It may seem nit-picky, but the above quote from the first post has circular reasoning in it. It assumes that humanity exists to aspire and break boundaries, which is really the central question about utopian schemes in the first place. If it helps, there are utopian schemes that also include progressive change for the species. Lets not call 'if-then' equal to 'therefore'.

This has always been the central question about paradise and utopian schemes of any kind, and it appears in all kinds of Science fiction and fantasy going all the way back to the Greeks. I just finished watching the Gun Sword cartoon series whose theme was an armed conflict between conservative underdogs who would keep humanity 'as is' and some bloodthirsty liberals who would force all of humanity to change into a new species that would live in peace & harmony. (Gun Sword is a Japanimation cartoon series that mixes high tech robots and giant energy swords with cowboy-ism). Contrast this with the theme of Asimov's Foundation series where in the last book the high tech hippies win instead of the power grasping conservatives and the galaxy becomes completely harmonious. yay
 
It may seem nit-picky, but the above quote from the first post has circular reasoning in it. It assumes that humanity exists to aspire and break boundaries, which is really the central question about utopian schemes in the first place. If it helps, there are utopian schemes that also include progressive change for the species. Lets not call 'if-then' equal to 'therefore'.

This has always been the central question about paradise and utopian schemes of any kind, and it appears in all kinds of Science fiction and fantasy going all the way back to the Greeks. I just finished watching the Gun Sword cartoon series whose theme was an armed conflict between conservative underdogs who would keep humanity 'as is' and some bloodthirsty liberals who would force all of humanity to change into a new species that would live in peace & harmony. (Gun Sword is a Japanimation cartoon series that mixes high tech robots and giant energy swords with cowboy-ism). Contrast this with the theme of Asimov's Foundation series where in the last book the high tech hippies win instead of the power grasping conservatives and the galaxy becomes completely harmonious. yay
Actually the reality is, that if there is no challenge, there is no humanity (in this current plane of existence), and no purpose for living. We are here to grow (don't ask me why), and from that, we move on. So, no. Paradise on Earth, would only make us reach for the stars...(what's next?)...

v/r

Joshua
 
Brian, I simply don't believe that the existence of suffering necessitates having challenges or aspirations. People can cherry-pick examples where suffering was a force that motivated a person on a given situation, but why should I believe that its the only way aspirations can be possible?

Also, its important to distinguish between necessary suffering and unnecessary suffering. I think that a paradise could still include necessary suffering (say, from natural forces of chaos), because people don't object to its existence. What people object to is the unnecessary BS that doesn't even have to occur in the first place.
 
I agree that in a very real sense Mankind is very much defined by the hardships of living. Remove them and we would not, could not be what we are. But the very concept of "paradise" is so obviously a load of tosh dreamt up for various reasons to make people "accept their lot", that it is a subject completely unworthy of serious debate. It really is tooth fairy land.


tao
 
paradise was a reality for the first human couple, Adam and Eve.

Their home was the garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:7-23)

Although that Paradise was lost, belief in a future paradise—in a new world without the problems of today is not just a dream.

It is solidly based on the promises contained in the Bible.

and yes it will be on EARTH :)



Speaking of those who will live in Paradise, the Bible states:

"They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage." (Isaiah 65:21)

Yes, "they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it."—Micah 4:4.

Is our earthly existence meant to be only a passing phase?

As the first-century Jewish philosopher Philo held, is it to be just "a brief, often unfortunate, episode" in a journey to a spirit realm?

Or did God have something else in mind when he created the earth and put humans on it in paradise conditions?

Can mankind find genuine spiritual fulfillment and bliss right here on earth?


Why not examine what the Bible says about this subject? You may well conclude, as millions already have, that to hope for a restored earthly paradise is reasonable indeed.


but maybe thats for the christian thread :)






 
Tao, I notice that the supposed impossibility of paradise is also used by others to make people accept their lot. That seems even worse to me.
 
Quahom1 said:
Actually the reality is, that if there is no challenge, there is no humanity (in this current plane of existence), and no purpose for living. We are here to grow (don't ask me why), and from that, we move on. So, no. Paradise on Earth, would only make us reach for the stars..
The opening argument says that paradise isn't paradise, and infers from this that there cannot be paradise. That's circular reasoning. The idea of paradise is one in which events are generally positive. This cannot nullify the purpose for living, unless the purpose of life is suffering in part. The idea of paradise excludes that possibility altogether. It says the purpose of life is to live.

You're saying the purpose of life isn't just to live. You think we are intimately incompatible with Utopias. Nevertheless, Utopia is Utopia.
 
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I agree that in a very real sense Mankind is very much defined by the hardships of living. Remove them and we would not, could not be what we are. But the very concept of "paradise" is so obviously a load of tosh dreamt up for various reasons to make people "accept their lot", that it is a subject completely unworthy of serious debate. It really is tooth fairy land.


tao

Paradise is a lot easier to pull off if it doesn't have be directly adjacent to this sphere. It's hard to see how Utopia can follow logically and pragmatically from this functional paradigm. But remove the constraints of custom and things get a lot more elastic. The field of possibility is really huge. Ginormous, actually. The subset of what is practically, functionally, pragmatically possible is much, much smaller. Lions still need to eat lambs, though, so that's a kink.

Chris
 
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