Polytheistic roots of monotheism

queenofsheba

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1 Elohim is the name of the creator in Genesis. Elohim is a semitic plural and should be translated "the gods".
2 YHWH didn't say: "I'm the only god". He said: "I'm a jealous god and I don't want you to worship any others".
3 There is a theory that YHWH ("He is who is") was really Seth. This Egyptian god was expelled after killing his brother Osiris (who later resurrected). He swore that he would take revenge by becoming the mightiest of all gods. He succeeded: currently about half the world population is worshipping him. First he tried it with Akhenaten, when that failed, he used the enslaved Hebrews to spread his cult. Later, he sent Jesus and Mohammed to convert the rest of the world.
 

FriendRob

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I agree that the roots of Israelite religion are a fascinating study.

1 - Yes, in some places it is translated "God" and in other places "angels". Another word used for God in the OT is "El". El is known from Canaanite and Ugaritic documents as a Canaanite deity who was a lusty old man and Father of the gods.

2 - Good point, and that's not the only place that the original polytheism shows through the OT. In Job 1, the "sons of God" (including the Satan) attend Yahweh. In Canaanite literature, these sons of El are the council of the gods. In Psalm 50, Yahweh is "the God of gods". How can this be if there are no other gods?

3 - I don't know where you got this "theory", it sounds bogus to me. Modern scholarship connects Yahweh with the deities of Canaan. The name comes from Canaanite-Proto-Hebrew verb "to be". See the excellent book by Frank Moore Cross, "Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic".
 

Awaiting_the_fifth

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FriendRob said:
In Psalm 50, Yahweh is "the God of gods".

If I remember correctly, he is also refferred to as "God of Gods" in the apostolic creed which is recited at Christian mass services.

Fascinating theory about Seth.

I remember that when God revealed himself to Abraham, Abraham asked him for his name so that he could tell others, and he gave his name as Yahweh, which of course simply means, I am who I am. A very evasive answer. Maybe this is because he is actually the well known Egyptian God looking for to change his identity.
 

Satanist

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The No 2

Judaism developed from Zoroatrism which was polythistic religion to begin with.
The morality of Judaism is from Zoroatrism while the Monothism is from Moses and via him from the Egyptian monothism that was forbiden.

The no 3
I support this becouse the Egyptian God Seth was imported and associated with the Hyxos that are by some explained as the jews.

Also Seth is a desert god and associated with nomads and ride animals.
In his own cult, Seth offered ressurection through hardship and the desert rain. Also Seth was just as the Jews militant and nomadic.
According to egypitan sources the hyxos tried to counqer egypt and were
sent to the valley of death were the Egyptians sent their unwanted or sick.
Moses recruited these people and went off.


There are many parales between the Seth and Osiris myth, kain and Abel
and finally to Moses and the Egyptian enslavement.
The biggest difference is that According to the nomadic Jews the nomad "Abel/Seth" was good
and in the egyptian version the farmer Cain/Ossiris was good.

Also Abel and Cain didn't worship God or new his name.
Another religion.

It is othen though that the person who was murdered was only one.
But it's untrue Seth was too killed and resurected.
Al over the middle east both the farmer and the nomad god were killed or
both survided or were ressurected.

According to me the golden Image mentioned in the bible was Seth.

The Jews/Hyxos brougth Seth to egypt and adopted Monotheism.

There are many personality similaties between Seth and Jeheve as Jahave behaves in those parts of the bible.

Jahave is a god of the desert and give rain just as Seth.

I had the same theory some years before.
 

Nogodnomasters

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Judaism developed out of the Canaanite religion. YHWH was Yereah, the moon god. The Jews used a lunar calendar. the name for month/moon are the same. Their god's name is also derived from the same word. Why do you think Asherah, Baal, and El are mentioned, but there is no mention of a moon god?
 

Awaiting_the_fifth

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That's interesting, wasn't Allah the Arabic moon God? Wonder if there's a connection.

Also, while reading a bit of the OT recently I came across one of those lines that casts a big doubt over monotheism. Leviticus, 18: 21.

"Do not hand over any of your children to be used in the worship of the god, Molech."

This conflicts a bit with the 'One God' theory. Anyone know who Molech is?
 

dauer

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Henotheism is more likely than monotheism initially, although there are enough theories. It is possible that henotheism was the going belief until a good exile hits. At this time either Yhwh becomes a part or is destroyed by the conquering pantheon, or a new understanding says he's really God of everything, punishing the people by exiling them. And we all know how that one turned out.

Dauer
 

queenofsheba

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Influence of other religions on judaism and christianity:
-Babylonian & Kanaanite: Creation, Noah and the flud, tower of Babel, sea monsters Leviathan and Rahab.
-Egyptian: structure of the Temple, with Ark in the small backroom.
-Zoroastrism: Holy Spirit vs. Satan (= Spenta Mainyu vs. Angra Mainyu), 7 angels and 7 demons, Hell, Purgatory and Paradise.
 

iBrian

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queenofsheba said:
3 There is a theory that YHWH ("He is who is") was really Seth. This Egyptian god was expelled after killing his brother Osiris (who later resurrected). He swore that he would take revenge by becoming the mightiest of all gods. He succeeded: currently about half the world population is worshipping him. First he tried it with Akhenaten, when that failed, he used the enslaved Hebrews to spread his cult. Later, he sent Jesus and Mohammed to convert the rest of the world.

I really don't see an identification between Judaism and Seth worship sustained, unless you are able to provide clear supported parallels between the two in terms of rituals and theology.

Also, I don't believe that Akhenaten has anything to do with Seth - I think you'll find that the New Kingdom Egyptians knew something of the difference between their own Aten-Ra and Seth, and I don't really see how you can sustain this argument other than presuming Seth somehow being the sole representative of Monotheism - which in itself seems contradictory regarding a polytheistic god.

The claims of the association with Christianity and Islam sound further disingenious - it sounds more like you are coming from a Gnostic interpretation of Earth being under the control of a single evil god - but I would thank you to keep this perception on a more appropriate area, such as the Mysticism board, rather than use other boards as a springboard for such an ideology.
 

ma70

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queenofsheba said:
1 Elohim is the name of the creator in Genesis. Elohim is a semitic plural and should be translated "the gods".
2 YHWH didn't say: "I'm the only god". He said: "I'm a jealous god and I don't want you to worship any others".
3 There is a theory that YHWH ("He is who is") was really Seth. This Egyptian god was expelled after killing his brother Osiris (who later resurrected). He swore that he would take revenge by becoming the mightiest of all gods. He succeeded: currently about half the world population is worshipping him. First he tried it with Akhenaten, when that failed, he used the enslaved Hebrews to spread his cult. Later, he sent Jesus and Mohammed to convert the rest of the world.
About Elohim meaning "The Gods",

As a native Arabic speaker (which is a semitic language), the plural form can be used for a single to show majesty or higher status. In fact, its called "the majesty plural". For example, in Arabic, a president of a country can referre to himself as "we". I dont speak Hebrew but i would assume that they have the same majesty plural since its a semitic and since Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic have a lot of similarities.
 

ma70

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Awaiting_the_fifth said:
That's interesting, wasn't Allah the Arabic moon God? Wonder if there's a connection.

Also, while reading a bit of the OT recently I came across one of those lines that casts a big doubt over monotheism. Leviticus, 18: 21.

"Do not hand over any of your children to be used in the worship of the god, Molech."

This conflicts a bit with the 'One God' theory. Anyone know who Molech is?

Not really. "Allat" is the Arabic moon god. Ancient Arabs worshipped God "Allah" as well as other gods (like the god of moon, sun, fire...). In fact, they worshipped the gods to get them closer to God "Allah".
 

Tao_Equus

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ma70 said:
About Elohim meaning "The Gods",

As a native Arabic speaker (which is a semitic language), the plural form can be used for a single to show majesty or higher status. In fact, its called "the majesty plural". For example, in Arabic, a president of a country can referre to himself as "we". I dont speak Hebrew but i would assume that they have the same majesty plural since its a semitic and since Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic have a lot of similarities.

Same with the Royal Family in the UK.
 

pohaikawahine

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ma70 said:
About Elohim meaning "The Gods",

As a native Arabic speaker (which is a semitic language), the plural form can be used for a single to show majesty or higher status. In fact, its called "the majesty plural". For example, in Arabic, a president of a country can referre to himself as "we". I dont speak Hebrew but i would assume that they have the same majesty plural since its a semitic and since Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic have a lot of similarities.

that was interesting that the Royal Family used the "we" and doesn't the Pope use the term "we" .... perhaps our "majesty or higher status" is our inner connection to "God" and therefore the word "we" is appropriate for all of us .... maybe "we" are all "gods" when we rediscover who we really are .... there could conceivable be a plural of "god" to "gods" if each of us possesses the "god seed" or the knowledge within to reach that place of "light" .... the question will be answered depending on whether one looks "outside" for "God" or "inside" for "God" and therein lies the differences between many of the religions .... it is also said "we are all Buddhas" .... is that any different than "we are all gods" .... I think that the use of the term "we" will take us to a much higher status as human beings .... when we move away from "I" to "we" are we more compassionate, more gracious, more connected to each other .... of course we would have to be .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine
 

aburaees

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lunamoth said:
Found this:

molech

lunamoth


People sacrificed children, by use of FIRE, to Molech in the valley of Hinnom or Hebrew "Gehinnom".

Interestingly in Islam...

Malik is the angel who lords over the hell-fire or Arabic "Jahannam".

Read it over to yourself...

Molech - Fire - Gehinnom
Malik - Fire - Jahannam

.
 

wil

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maybe "we" are all "gods" when we rediscover who we really are
as a rastafarian friend says "You and I and God is One" his use of the singular was as interesting as the use of the plural. And as we discover that we are gods...one with the all that is....co creator of all that is...co creator of ourscellves...yes we can then rejuvinate, first the thought. If you can conceive and believe it you can achieve it. And then in reality...much as Gen 1 was thought and Gen 2 was manifestation...
 

ma70

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I have a question for Hebrew speakers, can you referre to God, the almighty, as Eloh, instead of Elohim? If not, then thats really interesting since it has to be in plural form. Where as in Arabic there is no plural for the word "Allah".
 

ma70

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pohaikawahine said:
that was interesting that the Royal Family used the "we" and doesn't the Pope use the term "we" .... perhaps our "majesty or higher status" is our inner connection to "God" and therefore the word "we" is appropriate for all of us .... maybe "we" are all "gods" when we rediscover who we really are .... there could conceivable be a plural of "god" to "gods" if each of us possesses the "god seed" or the knowledge within to reach that place of "light" .... the question will be answered depending on whether one looks "outside" for "God" or "inside" for "God" and therein lies the differences between many of the religions .... it is also said "we are all Buddhas" .... is that any different than "we are all gods" .... I think that the use of the term "we" will take us to a much higher status as human beings .... when we move away from "I" to "we" are we more compassionate, more gracious, more connected to each other .... of course we would have to be .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine

Let me see if I understood your logic correctly. So, if the pope says "we", does it mean that I have a "pope seed" if I said the same thing? If God says "we" and I say "we" i dont think that it makes me a god or it proves that I am one. Using the plural doesnt "Take" you to a "Higher status", it just "shows" that you are of a higher status. For example, it would be funny if an average person referres to him/her self as "we".


Also, am sorry, but I had to be clear when I said "higher status". By that i meant higher status among the ones around you. A parent is in a higher status among the children, same with teacher and students, president and people of that country, God an his creatures... etc.
 

pohaikawahine

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ma70 said:
Let me see if I understood your logic correctly. So, if the pope says "we", does it mean that I have a "pope seed" if I said the same thing? If God says "we" and I say "we" i dont think that it makes me a god or it proves that I am one. Using the plural doesnt "Take" you to a "Higher status", it just "shows" that you are of a higher status. For example, it would be funny if an average person referres to him/her self as "we".


Also, am sorry, but I had to be clear when I said "higher status". By that i meant higher status among the ones around you. A parent is in a higher status among the children, same with teacher and students, president and people of that country, God an his creatures... etc.

no you missed the entire point .... the average person can refer to him/her self as "we" if they believe that the place to meet god is within .... it really not funny, but glad you find humor in it ....
 
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