Where the West is wrong

[Bandit]

Interesting point.

Correct me if im wrong but I don't think at the age of 16 I would be on the front lines.

Anyway I think that of course the politians and warlords are to blame but I think that power corrupts so it is difficult to persuade them to do good.

If the whole US army refused to fight a war. Of course completely unrealistic they would hold big negotiating power.
I have heard that in some dicatorships around the world the armys have refused to commit genocide or other inhumane acts and managed to replace people in power. In the french revolution wasn't Napoelon a general in the army? and he came to power.

my point is that the army shouldn't forget that they are still people and they are still entitled to human rights including the right to think and disagree. (Im not sure if that exists but im sure some equivilent exists.)

maybe, not sure. but it is a law to register for the draft at age 16, unless that has changed I dont know.

i know exactly what you are saying Kaspar. It took me years to put it all together & i still dont think it will ever make perfect sense to people who want peace & who want to establish bridges.

i guess the problem is there will always be the ones who must have that 'power' & the others who must cause problems & start fights & all the peaceful people get hurt in between the two.
all i know is we have only truly known freedom of religion & these other freedoms that we have, within the last few centuries. i think if it was not for the 'fight' for freedom in the first place, from all the dictatorships in the world, we would all be slaves living in dungeons.


in some countries you may be on the front lines at the age of 12, so be thankful.
my point is, if it were not for armed forces protecting citizens you would be on the front lines & would not have choice because no one would be there fighting to protect you or your 2 month old child. So the OTHER FORCES come up to you & stick there guns into your head & i guess you just let them blow you away or take you as a slave...because you have no soldier figthing in your place.
get it now?

if you are really only 16, by the time you reach 30, things will look a little different. Then they will look different again when you hit 45. Trust me.
If the whole U.S. army refuse to fight a war, then we would be taken over by terrorists or some other blockheads & again YOU would be on the front lines.

i dont have all the answers Kaspar. i just do my best to try & make it make sense, the best i can to keep myself in peace.

 

[aquaris]

@babanabrain

ref post # 54
yes 747 was a typo .... it is 707

Pretty palausable expalnation.....


except...... they found the passport or some document related to Mohammed ATA
one of the alleged suicider , from the rubble... so where steel vaporized....... ordinary paper did not....

and most of the Jet fuel at least in the second Hit, did not made it , into the building.... it unfortunately provided a horrible spectacle for the world Media....


and the most important of all...... You cannot pull such a sophisticated operation
without some Internal Help and that to in pretty influential places .... especially if you are somewhere in the CAVES of Afghanistan...........


any way thanks for the explanation.

 

[aquaris]

And about decisions....

when you are at the top , you had to make pretty cold calculated and sometime inhuman decisions.......... which you would like to justify ....for a greater cause...


like sending soldiers to face the so called Insurgents...... who in retrospect think they are defending their soil from the invaders.....

and send out Pilots..... who would then drop Bombs on area where there are civilian populations..... so you are willing to Kill thousands of civilians on the suspicion that some of them may be harbouring the insurgents....... and then calling all the loses of innocent lives regrettable collatereal damange....


I am sorry .... i sound cynic.. But where I live .... I have seen small children about
10 years or so... without Limbs, without Hands....without legs .and they will have to live with it for the rest of their lives , with all the innocence in their eyes ..... asking what was their fault.......!!! why their village was bombed......!!
what had they done to anger the Uncle.......

Sorry But the loss of lives..... innocent lives its too much......
One can go on and On.... like all the Lies about WMDs.....etc etc....

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

if you are really only 16, by the time you reach 30, things will look a little different. Then they will look different again when you hit 45.

I hate it when people say things like that. It drives me crazy when people say they know better just because they're older. It drives me even crazier that they're usually right.


Aquaris, I'm with you on this one. I dont know about the twin towers, but certainly the pentagon thing was all wrong. The same incident that destroyed the huge world trade centre barely poked a hole in the pentagon.

Call me a conspiracy nut but I do think this is all Mr Bush's little power game, and I think Blair knows it and goes with it anyway, which is even worse. It is my belief that it's all a plot to scare the population into control, 1984 style. Well I agree with Benjamin Franklin who said,

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

 

[aquaris]

..Yes Awaiting_the_faith


that is another mystery....

No Skid Marks, No wings,.... No Tyres, No debries of anything like a plane, No BlackBox, ,,,No seats, no charred Bodies.... No nothing.....!! Amazing...

 

[17th Angel]

Bananabrain thank you for your time. I will read the Israeli paper you recomended. Add it as a favourite.


I like the passion you show but i can't help but dissagree with your position.
I think there is nothing honourable about getting your head down and taking orders. I think if you bow down to this level you are no longer a human but a machine. What is the purpose of your mind or heart if you are just going to use it to Kill and hate?
What is so amazing about your Queen? what has she done good for her country? She is just one rich aristocrat who sits on her wealth.

Violence is never a solution. It doesn't find peace or build bridges. It doesn't build intellect or allow creativity.
All it does is give people mental health disorders, make them scared, frightened, and freeze their heart.
You say that you will pick up your rifle. Why? Would you shoot your brother down? What gives you the right to take peoples lives? Playing life and death like you were God. What reason is there ever to take someone elses life?
I believe by the act of killing someone you are killing your self. You are splitting your soul up. There is nothing alright about murder just because they are wearing a different uniform.

I know you (17th angel) will almost definately dissagree with my objection to War and violence but I find it hard not to voice my opinion.
May you live in Peace

My purpose? To protect... I have no hate in me, I was not driven by hate, I was driven by love. I agree Violence is bad, although at times you have no option.... Your looking at it very blindly, I do not just take life, I save life. OK fine, place it like this, If I wasnt a "Machine" Many more would have died.... I have saved more than I have killed or harmed. Also there is nothing more honourable than becoming a soldier for your country! Look at it like this I will talk breifly about a few of my experiences you say good or evil... Human or Machine...

1. Risking my life in a riot to save a six year old girl.
2. Helping a local village family carry water home.
3. Constantly for two weeks watching over a small village to give them peice of mind.
4. Being apart of a group that gave their freedom, so you can sit here on this forum with your freedom, and say how much of a monster I am....
5. Being reserve police forces in my homeland for when the police force needed help with upholding law I was there.....


Friend, I am no monster.... Say what you will of me, but I know what I truly am and I am a soldier. In war, in life, in human nature there is always death. You don't truly believe we, go out there thinking "Awesome! I am going to go kill someone! He is probally a husband of a family of five with a concerend mother.." So are men in my unit..... End of the day it is you or them, Yes war leaves grim images in soldiers heads.... My brother still has flashbacks from a certain situation which was terrible.. Though he did, what he had too.... As I have done what I had too.

 

[Bandit]

I hate it when people say things like that. It drives me crazy when people say they know better just because they're older. It drives me even crazier that they're usually right.


Aquaris, I'm with you on this one. I dont know about the twin towers, but certainly the pentagon thing was all wrong. The same incident that destroyed the huge world trade centre barely poked a hole in the pentagon.

Call me a conspiracy nut but I do think this is all Mr Bush's little power game, and I think Blair knows it and goes with it anyway, which is even worse. It is my belief that it's all a plot to scare the population into control, 1984 style. Well I agree with Benjamin Franklin who said,

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

i agree with a lot of that ATF. anyone who cant see conspiracies & possibilities could be blind or part of the conspiracy without realizing it. there is no doubt that someone out there wants to have complete control over the peoples & the entire globe. considering no one has ever ruled the entire planet, that would be one obejective, of many. but probably a short lived reign.
just some thoughts about it all.

 

[Kaspar]

Ok very nice 17thAngel. You make a fair point that I can't judge you and I don't mean to because whatever I might have said it IS true that independant police forces are necessary to maintain peace in insecure times.

My question now is...

about George Bush and the Hurricane Katrina.

Im not sure if anyone has read any articles about it but the impression i got was that there was absolutely nothing done at the time of disaster for the victims for example to get them out of the City. That means provide transport to evacuate them. Nothing done to provide accomodation for the victims even if they manage to escape. Only the rich and lucky managed to survive.

In my opinion this shows complete incompetance on the part of the bush administration. George Bushes election manifesto was something along the lines of the country needing someone who would protect them. What a brilliant protector! -sarcasm-.

All I heard from texans residents talking about the victims of the Hurricane on the news. And this is literally what she was saying in disbelief.
"...and I've heard all those poor people are going to come here!"

not nice is my interpretation.

I would like to ask what the Americans on this forum think about the hurricane? I suppose i could start a new thread but it sort of is "where the west is wrong" on a sort of caring theme

Peace

 

[Bandit]

on hurricane Katrina. i compare it to Andrew. we did not get help where i lived after andrew for almost a week so there ya go on that. andrew gave us 2 weeks warning before it hit. katrina only gave 3 or 4 days notice. those people did not see it coming & did not truly have the time to protect themsleves & get out of the storm.both A & K had the same exact magnitude, but A only took a few lives because they saw it coming. 'A' did not leave a massive flood from the levy breaking.
i dont think the majority was even aware that levy was only built for a category 3 storm. (?)
people dont consider all possibilities & every new generation forgets reality.

i dont think anyone dropped the ball. this is all a part of living on the planet earth. no different than a 7.5 on the ricther & where that is centered.
Mr. Nature is going to do what she wants to do & no one is going stop it.

2 cents

 

[Kaspar]

i dont think anyone dropped the ball. this is all a part of living on the planet earth. no different than a 7.5 on the ricther & where that is centered.
Mr. Nature is going to do what she wants to do & no one is going stop it.

Nature is going to do what it wants correct but that doesn't mean you can just leave your people to die at the hands of a horrific hurricane!!!

People weren't just dying because of the imenant effects of the hurricane eg. drowning, getting ripped apart by the winds etc but also by the chaos that followed. People are being robbed and murdered. Lack of fresh water is making a multitude of problems not to mention lack of medicine to cure the injured.

I don't think you can hold that perspective in this disaster that it is impossible to prepare for a hurricane, and my initial point was that the politians weren't doing anything to help except have photographs taken and give hugs.

 

[Bandit]

Nature is going to do what it wants correct but that doesn't mean you can just leave your people to die at the hands of a horrific hurricane!!!

People weren't just dying because of the imenant effects of the hurricane eg. drowning, getting ripped apart by the winds etc but also by the chaos that followed. People are being robbed and murdered. Lack of fresh water is making a multitude of problems not to mention lack of medicine to cure the injured.

I don't think you can hold that perspective in this disaster that it is impossible to prepare for a hurricane, and my initial point was that the politians weren't doing anything to help except have photographs taken and give hugs.

oh yes it is possible to prepare for a hurricane. if you ever go through one of that magnitude & survive, you will be prepared from that day forth. you cannot rely on others to do it for you. i lived through the eye of andrew, so i know all about the aftermath.

it looks to me like there are millions trying to help, even people on this forum.
that chaos you see has always been there from the crooks & criminals...like how many crooks they lost & are running free & no one knows where they are. why? because they did not prepare for it.
if mardis gras is still on...well that should tell you something.

 

[bananabrain]

and as for the glib, smug, hand-wringing moral equivalence that puts our soldiers who were sent to remove a megalomaniac mass-murderer on a par with those murderous bastads "resisting occupation" by beheading electricians - and killing their supposed "brothers" with suicide bombings - in iraq, david aaronovitch, writing in todays "times", puts it extremely well:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1777085,00.html

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Kaspar]

david aaronovitch, writing in todays "times", puts it extremely well:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1777085,00.html

He is very agressive but does make some interesting points.

I think he is being slightly narrowminded when he says because Japanesse newspapers reported decapitations they are a debased society.

And the motivation matters. I believe that it is depraved to take pleasure from the murder, ill-treatment or torture of fellow human beings. Societies which permit or encourage such behaviour are inferior moral societies to those where it is regarded as shaming. Imperial Japan, where the newspapers could expect their readers to enjoy the stories of competitive beheadings, was in this sense a morally debased society.

Have a look at the west. Not only do the army support the manufacture of completely brutal games where you are supposed to enjoy bloody torture.
Don't pretend violent games don't exist or aren't widely distrubuted across the US and alot of the UK because they do. And young people play them thinking it is cool. If he is going to ask questions of morallity over torture and sadistic actions I think he should direct the finger also over the crooks of western society. Is it worse to read about a decapitation with admiration in a newspaper than to actively make thousands of decapitations of virtual soliders on your Xbox or PS2. If you don't believe take a look at the games around these days that try and emulate the way someone would die, their scream pleading and not to mention the gory blood that is spilled on your sons computer or Television screens.

MY conclusion is that:
The US is just as much a Violent society as Japan and neither holds any moral superiority or inferiority over any other.

Peace

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Kaspar,

thanks for the post.

Not only do the army support the manufacture of completely brutal games where you are supposed to enjoy bloody torture.
Don't pretend violent games don't exist or aren't widely distrubuted across the US and alot of the UK because they do.

so... to you, a pixel which is pixelated is the same thing as a sentient human being which is killed?

fascinating! truly, i've never heard of such a view! mostly folks don't associate the inanimate with the sentient beings and equivocate that those are the same thing, anthropormorphization and all of that.

And young people play them thinking it is cool.

is that the only reason they are played? perhaps, they think it is entertainment as well? of course, not all entertainment is beneficial.. but, then again, there is nothing that says entertainment has to be... just be entertaining.

If he is going to ask questions of morallity over torture and sadistic actions I think he should direct the finger also over the crooks of western society.

i think that, perhaps, you are missing the point.

the point that the author is trying to make, i think, is that it is ones motivations or intentions which ultimately characterize the nature of their actions, not the actions without their supporting motivations.

Is it worse to read about a decapitation with admiration in a newspaper than to actively make thousands of decapitations of virtual soliders on your Xbox or PS2.

it's not worse to "read" about it... it is, however, much worse to actually do it to a sentient being than a virtual human, which is nothing more than pixels. which games for the PS2 can you go about decapitating folks?

If you don't believe take a look at the games around these days that try and emulate the way someone would die, their scream pleading and not to mention the gory blood that is spilled on your sons computer or Television screens.

only if you have the "gore" option enabled. you can disable that and most of that stuff stops.

clearly, computer programs in general and games in particular, are always stiving for a more "realistic" experience for the users. this is how the business works, for the most part.

rather like movies, they also have a rating system to help concerned folks monitor the sort of entertainment that their children can view.

perhaps you beef is with laxidasical parents whom abdicate their parental responsiblity to the television and video game?

MY conclusion is that:
The US is just as much a Violent society as Japan and neither holds any moral superiority or inferiority over any other.

Peace

do you know the Bataan Death March is? would you characterize it as the same as the Trail of Tears? why or why not?

metta,

~v

 

[bananabrain]

you both make good points. however, both of them lead me to think that the judgement of moral equivalence is a fundamentally self-defeating philosophy. at the end of the day some things are right(er) and some things are wrong(er) - on the *balance* of the available evidence and one's own beliefs, of course - but i still find it absurd that people can pay so much attention to the human rights of criminals and murderers whilst ignoring the violation of other people's human rights by similar criminals and murderers. it's selective enforcement - just as they are claiming selective enforcement by those they accuse.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

The US isnt a dictorship.. its a democracy... The people vote in who they think will make the choices they want for our country.

 

[Katyana1980]

when you say "west" what are you actually meaning?

from my point of view, Saudi Arabia is "the west" as much as Britian and America are.

I'm confused about this too. What does "western" mean? It seems that for a lot of people it means that you have a mcadonalds in your nearest city and know who Britney Spears is.

Is it more the idea of materialism and capitalism? I agree that there is a dominant culture spreading around the world that basically has commerce behind it. Think about it... why is the internet spreading so much? Because of economic reasons. And there is a culture based around the English Language, materialism and liberalism that comes with it. And it's the same for other "Western" things, like the world of air travel, business, the media, leisure...

I do think it's a shame that certain people around the world think that if they don't take on this culture that they are behind the times or not going to be successful on a world stage. I'd love it if another culture could rival it. Everyone shouldn't feel any pressure to move away from their own culture.

As for spiritual and ethical issues, I don't think that you can generalise about a "western" set of beliefs and standards just as you can't generalise about eastern ones. I've visited Sicily and noted that women are treated in a very "non-Western" way. We should just learn to be tolerant of each other and not impose our beliefs on others. OK, there are some cultures that have wide-spread ideas that I don't agree with, but I'm not going to go over there and tell them that they are wrong. It's their own business. It's different however when it does harm to people.

I'm sure that if I went to a so-called non-Western country, people would look at me and presume things about me because I'm Western. Perhaps think that family and community aren't very important to me. Perhaps think that spirituality isn't important to me. Maybe assume that I wasn't interested in what they have to say about how they live. Perhaps feel superior. Couldn't be further from the case. Likewise, people in the so-called West might see someone non-Western and presume that their lives are simpler, more religious, perhaps distrusting of the West.

We need to stop presuming and actually listen to each other and learn. It would help with so many problems in the world and within our own countries. People from all cultures have something valid to say and have values and lifestyles that we can all learn from, Western or not.

 

[Quahom1]

The US isn't a dictorship.. it's a democracy... The people vote in who they think will make the choices they want for our country.

The US isn't a democracy...it is a federal republic based on democratic principles. A country the size (population wise) of the United States could never survive with a democracy. It would result in mob rule. Pure democracies only work in small numbers, such as townships, villages, and perhaps small cities, or states with few citizens. Your second part is absolutely correct. We vote for those we think will look our for our interests. That does not always happen however. In such cases we have the power to recall those representitives "home" (think Senator Daschle of South Dakota and Governor Wilson of California).

This is the primary strength in our form of government. We the people have the power to remove/replace our representitives at any time, and/or the power to liquidate our government and create a new one, or new type.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[lunamoth]

The US isn't a democracy...it is a federal republic based on democratic principles. A country the size (population wise) of the United States could never survive with a democracy. It would result in mob rule. Pure democracies only work in small numbers, such as townships, villages, and perhaps small cities, or states with few citizens. Your second part is absolutely correct. We vote for those we think will look our for our interests. That does not always happen however. In such cases we have the power to recall those representitives "home" (think Senator Daschle of South Dakota and Governor Wilson of California).

This is the primary strength in our form of government. We the people have the power to remove/replace our representitives at any time, and/or the power to liquidate our government and create a new one, or new type.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

Hey Q, that is an elegantly concise civics lesson!

lunamoth

 

[Quahom1]

Hey Q, that is an elegantly concise civics lesson!

lunamoth

Hmmm, I'm not sure about the "elegant" part....