Attacks on islam by Christian Leaders

[the_truth]

Just wanted to share this with you,sorry if its already been known..

ATTACKS ON ISLAM BY FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN LEADERS:

Attack by Franklin Graham:

Franklin Graham is the son of Billy Graham -- arguably the best known Evangelical Christian leader in the U.S.

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-OCT: At the dedication of a chapel near Wilkesboro, NC in his parents' name, Graham is quoted as having expressed essentially the same views as he later did on NOV-16(see below).He later issued a statement to the Charlotte Observer saying "It is not my calling to analyze Islam or any other religions, though I recognize that all religions have differences. In the past, I have expressed my concerns about the teachings of Islam regarding the treatment of women and the killing of non-Muslims or infidels." [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-NOV-16: According to MSNBC, Franklin Graham appeared on the NBC Nightly News, commenting on Islam. He allegedly said: "We're not attacking Islam but Islam has attacked us. The God of Islam is not the same God. He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God, and I believe it [Islam] is a very evil and wicked religion." This statement is confusing because he seems to imply that Jews believe that Jesus is the son of God -- a belief that is contrary to historical Jewish belief. He continued: "I don’t believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion. When you read the Koran and you read the verses from the Koran, it instructs the killing of the infidel, for those that are non-Muslim." When asked by NBC News to clarify his statement, Graham repeated his charge that Islam, as a whole, is an evil. "It wasn’t Methodists flying into those buildings, it wasn’t Lutherans. It was an attack on this country by people of the Islamic faith." NBC news contacted Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and other Christian leaders. None would would comment on Graham’s attacks. Ken Woodward, Newsweek religion editor, said: "Obviously, Mr. Graham is tone deaf in this respect. He’s certainly not his father’s son in terms of discretion." [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-NOV-19: On NOV-19, Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), sent Graham a letter stating, in part, "I would therefore respectfully request a meeting during which recognized Muslim scholars may offer you information about Islam, particularly Islam's stance on the rights of women and minorities, that is free of bias and distortions. At this time of national and international crisis, it is imperative that we come together as people of faith to promote inter-religious understanding and mutual respect." There has been no indication that he has responded to the request.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-NOV-20: In his NOV-20 column, conservative Chuck Baldwin commented: "The one bright light in all of this is Franklin Graham...As you can imagine, Mr. Graham has been vilified and demonized, not only by liberals in the media but also by cowardly Christians and conservatives. However, Franklin Graham has thus far demonstrated the kind of grit not seen in a long time on the national stage: he refuses to surrender or apologize for his convictions. God bless him! He is a breath of fresh air, and he gives me something for which to be thankful because the record shows that Christians and conservatives (not to mention the Constitution) have been Bush-whacked." [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2002-AUG: Graham "said during an interview that Muslims hadn't sufficiently apologized for the terrorist attacks — and he challenged Muslim leaders to offer to help rebuild Lower Manhattan or compensate the families of victims to show they condemn terrorism." 4 He followed this with a series of remarks about Islam and Muslims as he promoted his new book: "The Name." In that book, he wrote that: "Islam — unlike Christianity — has among its basic teachings a deep intolerance for those who follow other faiths."[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2002-SEP: During an interview with Beliefnet.com, he said that after the terrorist attacks: "there was this hoo-rah around Islam being a peaceful religion — but then you start having suicide bombers, and people start saying, 'Wait a minute, something doesn't add up here.' " [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2002-OCT-28: ABCNEWS.com commented that the "Virginia-based Family Policy Network, encouraged members to 'thank Franklin Graham for his faithfulness to Christ in the face of criticism.' " [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2003-APR-13: According to the Muslim Public Affairs Council, a "progressive voice for American Muslims," the Pentagon arranged to sponsor Franklin Grayam at a Good Friday prayer service on APR-18. Members of the Pentagon's chaplain group issued a letter stating that: "...we are deeply dismayed and disappointed that the Pentagon Chaplain's Office has invited Mr. Franklin Graham, an extremely controversial and divisive figure, to perform the Good Friday Services at the Pentagon on April 18, 2003. Mr. Graham has made recent public statements that are not only insulting and offensive to Muslims but also to those who espouse ecumenism among the faith groups. Mr. Graham's negative statements concerning Islam and Muslims, which he has never recanted, fly in the face of what we stand for as Americans. By sponsoring and promoting a visit to the Pentagon by an extreme fundamentalist like Mr. Graham, the Pentagon Chaplain's Office is sending a message that it and the Department of Defense condone public displays of attitudes and thoughts that contradict not only Department of Defense regulations but also the American ideal of religious tolerance. We hope and pray that the Pentagon Chaplain's Office will reconsider its invitation to Mr. Graham and instead invite a more inclusive and honorable Christian clergyman to perform the Good Friday Services." 5[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]


Attack by William F. Buckley:

Buckley has claimed that the wave of international terrorism was not due to radical, extreme Fundamentalist Muslims. Rather, he blames "well-known atheists who live un-Muslim lives and have persecuted unto death the Muslim movements in their countries." 6 He included, as Atheists:

[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Assad family, controllers of Syria. [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

Buckley claims that "The principal sponsors of the terrorists are not religious fanatics," as believed by many individuals and groups worldwide. They are actually Atheists.

AANEWS commented that an " 'atheist' is a term used in Middle Eastern discourse to often refer to those who believe in religions other than the peculiar and discreet faith of the individual making the accusation. A Shi'ite may use the term against a Christian or Jew (and perhaps even vice versa!). Regimes that do not reflect a 'correct' theocratic bent, or have secular components -- such as women not being required in Iraq to wear a burqa -- can lead to misuse of the term. In the Middle East alphabet soup of labels and descriptions, 'atheist' means different things to different speakers. A 'secularist' -- or an individual accused of being one -- can easily be branded an 'atheist' without much need for further explanation..."

"AANEWS concludes: "A 'secularist' or individual who embraces a different religion, especially one who navigates the treacherous political waters of the Middle East though, is not automatically an 'atheist.' If anything, the shabby charge serves to divert us from a blatant truth -- that the violence of September 11 was the result, in part, of religious fervor, and the designs of those who would transform the earth into a theocracy."

Assigning the term "Atheist" to persons of another religion has a long history. The Pagans accused the Christians during the 1st and 2nd centuries CE of being Atheists because they believed in only one God.


Attack by Benny Hinn:

Benny Hinn proclaimed to thousands of Christians at the American Airlines Center in Dallas, TX that "We are on God's side. This is not a war between Arabs and Jews. It's a war between God and the devil." Several conservative Christian ministers from the Dallas area, who shared the podium, clapped and nodded their approval. Later, a few of them said that the line between Christians and Muslims is the difference between good and evil.

Most of the Dallas pastors who joined Benny Hinn on the stage refused to be interviewed or to respond to faxed questions asking whether they endorsed Hinn's remarks. However, some religious leaders reacted to the speech:

[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Ibrahim Hooper, spokesperson for the Dallas chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was distressed. He said: "The demonizing of Islam. The actual call for the elimination of Islam. It's disturbing." [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Ronald Flowers, a religion professor at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth said that the [religious] shift to the right among Christians can be traced to the same political drift toward conservatism. He said: "It's a search for certainty in an uncertain world. The fact that Muslims and Christians worship the same God seems to escape these people."[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]J. Don George, senior pastor of Calvary Temple in Irving, TX, accompanied Hinn on stage. He said: "Our faith is in Jesus Christ, and the Muslim community does not accept Jesus and God, and therefore we're at odds with Muslims....Any religion or ideology that refuses to acknowledge the lordship of Jesus Christ could be typified as a war against Satan." [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Paul Mills, pastor of Arlington Faith Chapel, said that Muslims would find Hinn's statement inappropriate. However, their complaints would be irrelevant because Jesus is the only way to heaven. He said: "The religion [of Islam] is a false religion as far as we believe."[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Brent Arterbury, pastor of Life Church in Haltom City, is sometimes critical with Hinn, especially over his alleged refusal to be financially accountable. But Arterbury said that he agrees that Christians are engaged in a spiritual war. He said: "From a biblical standpoint, I have to agree that there is good and there is evil. From that standpoint, I believe what he said is in line with what the Scriptures say." He added that Islam "is a very destructive type of faith....They're a revengeful people....We as Christians don't despise the Muslims. We love them. We just don't like what they stand for."[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Dr. Nasir Ahmad, an imam with the Muslim American Society in Dallas. He said that Arterbury's comments are irresponsible and that his statement is untrue. He added that the nature of Islam is peace. Ahmad said: "In the Torah and the Bible you can pick out a sentence, pick out many things distasteful to even the adherents of that faith....At least I have the integrity to quote the [Christian] religion correctly." He added that "There are demigod leaders in politics, religion and education that play upon the blind emotions of the masses. He's playing on the emotions of the people. Those persons [Hinn preaches to] are kept in the dark and out of light of what's really going on.[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"Ike" Cowell, pastor of Grace Evangelical Methodist Church in Fort Worth, said one can expect that dialogue between Christians and Muslims would involve some difference of opinion but should involve some outreach and be based on mutual respect. He said: "I would not be combative myself. I would want there to be a dialogue, to hear what they have to say. All I know about [Muslims] is what I read or hear."[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]


Attack by Pat Robertson:

Pat Robertson broadcast a message during his Christian Broadcasting Network news program on 2002-NOV-11. According to the media: "In his remarks, Christian preacher and conservative commentator Pat Robertson said Muslims were bent on exterminating Jews..." 8 Robertson is reported as saying: "Somehow I wish the Jews in America would wake up, open their eyes and read what is being said about them...This is worse than the Nazis...Adolf Hitler was bad, but what the Muslims want to do to the Jews is worse." In an apparent reaction to both Jewish and Muslim anti-hate groups, he said that those who had criticized him in the past -- people whom he called "so called doves" -- did not understand the situation. He continued: "If I say something that Islam is, you know, an erroneous religion, then I get criticized by the Anti-Defamation League. You just want to say: 'When are you going to open your eyes and see who your enemy is.' Those people want to destroy Jews.' " The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is arguably the most prominent and active Jewish anti-hate agency.

On NOV-12, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) denounced Robertson's remarks as consisting of "lies, distortions and outright bigotry." CAIR Spokesperson Hodan Hassan said "It's a shame coming from someone who claims to be a man of the cloth...He is doing a lot more to increase tensions and maybe violence among different ethnicities and religions than sowing the seeds of peace." Referring to two passages from the Qur'an, she said that Robertson was using them "deceitfully." She continued: "It's outlandish and a total distortion." She noted that the Qur'an contains numerous calls for inter-faith harmony and demands that Muslims respect other religions.

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[Chalice]

I have several copies of the koran, all given to me by good muslim people who purchased them for me at their mosques - therefore I believe them to be reliable texts that represent the Korah in english.

I am a Christian. I sat down to read my Koran. It surprised me that some texts accuse Christians and Jews of talking behind the backs of Muslems about how bad their are, and then speaking to their faces nicely. I was also surprised that the Koran accuses jews and christians of having an alterior motive to convert muslims to their own faiths, as if this were a surprise - christianity and ancient judaism were both "evangelical" faiths since before Islam existed - the goal of monotheism is to get others to "join up" and know the One God in the "correct" way according to them.

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything. There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost, they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Of course, to be fair, I also sat down and read the old testament - it instructs the jews to march into pagan lands, take their land in the name of the Jewish God and destroy everything, even the goods. So maybe ancient religions just took over each other's land by war in the name of their deities. Christianity never teaches this in the New Testament - the war is inside each person, and the battle is between Satan and God over your soul. You only can choose who you want to be with. It is not political or public, it is personal, and private.

I found my english version of the koran gramatically clumsy, and I am not saying this to be mean. I have a degree in English/Brittish lit, and it does not read smoothly, because the translators, more than likely do not own English as their first language and are doing the best they can with a foreign language. When I read the koran, I want to just sit down to the computer and make the text more smooth and gracefull. I also wish I could take out the parts that teach muslims that it is ok to kill me because I am not muslim.

I have many muslim friends and I love them very much. I am "ok" that they are not Christians as I am. I wish that the koran would reflect this type of love toward me, because most of my muslim friends do - it is natural to live and let live, and to love others.

I am personally very afraid of what happened in London a few weeks back, with a tape of AlQeda coming on CNN and saying that there are more plans to blow up America and London. I hope that the muslim world never experiences western "cell" groups that no one can find, who enter their society as "friends", and then blow up innocent housewives who cart their many crying children to the grocery store for milk and diapers, or people who go to work so their children can have birthday gifts, or the mortgage can be paid.

I know the muslim people are good of heart - I only know "good" muslim people, and I love them. I would like to know if there are any muslims out there who would like to translate an "American" version of the Koran (as we have an "American Standard version " of the Bible - it would read smoothly and beautifully, and it would be much more gentle with the passages that "appear" to teach that ending lives of non-muslims is "ok". This would help alot and spread the peace that Islam is supposed to be.

The story of Abraham and his 2 wives, sarah and hagar teach that both families, Jews/Christians and Muslims should dwell in peace inside Abraham's tent, for God tells Hagar to go back to Abraham's tent with Ishmael and dwell there in peace. She can not because Sarah will not allow it, which is unfortunate. But I want to dwell in peace with the muslim world, and do not believe you are in exile from the Abrahamic family. Please let us live in peace and love. I do not know what christian leaders say, and I dont know what really happens with muslim leaders - but I do know what the koran teaches and says, and I do know that NY and London have been blown up. That is enough for me. Forget the leaders. we need a grass roots effort for peace, and we need to re-teach everyone love for one another, and re-translating the koran so that at least in English speaking countries, the Koran would be understood as a book that teaches muslims to love and tolerate non-muslims.

 

[the_truth]

hello Chalice,

I am a Christian. I sat down to read my Koran. It surprised me that some texts accuse Christians and Jews of talking behind the backs of Muslems about how bad their are, and then speaking to their faces nicely.

I can understand your feelings.But we need to go a bit deeper into this.The Qur'an does not accuse all Christians and jews of being bad.Actually Allah talks very highly of Christians:

"Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who , believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters.And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians.That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud." (5:82)​

The Qur'an also says that there are among these people,sincere and faithful souls.

I have also read stories about a lot of missionaries using this 'hypocrisy' style of preaching.I mean, smiling and charms and all that stuff.. but when you refuse to listen to what they say, they turn mean.

I was also surprised that the Koran accuses jews and christians of having an alterior motive to convert muslims to their own faiths, as if this were a surprise - christianity and ancient judaism were both "evangelical" faiths since before Islam existed - the goal of monotheism is to get others to "join up" and know the One God in the "correct" way according to them.

Exactly.Allah is warning us against the Christian Preachers and not to fall prey to their traps of performing miracles.Even Jesus said in NT, that a large number of people he would never look at their faces on the Day of Judgement.Who were these people? they used to perform miracles and prophecise in his name..This what's given in NT.. This is what's happening now.

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything.

"People of the book" is a very respectable title.There's no insult in this.As regards the deviation of the followers of Jesus(pbuh) from the true path.Why can't it be true?

There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost,

No.no.. This is not what the Qur'an says.The Qur'an says that a person's life is predestined, so if Allah had willed for a Christian to be misguided,no one can change his/her fate.even if we break our heads to try to convert a christian to Islam,it wouldn't work.. or even if Jesus came down and talked to him,it wouldn't..he would still worship him.


So basically,what i'm trying to say is that the Qur'an tells us to deliver the message to the people and leave the rest to Allah.

they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Maybe you do not know what 'jihad' really means.It comes from the arabic word "jahada" which means to "struggle or strive" in righteousness.Jihad does not mean 'holy war" like you may think.In fact there is even a peaceful jihad.

Of course, to be fair, I also sat down and read the old testament - it instructs the jews to march into pagan lands, take their land in the name of the Jewish God and destroy everything, even the goods. So maybe ancient religions just took over each other's land by war in the name of their deities.

Christianity never teaches this in the New Testament - the war is inside each person, and the battle is between Satan and God over your soul. You only can choose who you want to be with. It is not political or public, it is personal, and private.

Well, i wouldn't be so sure about that.Even Jesus went for 'jihad' in NT.

"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!" .

Luke 22:35-36

what happened to "turn the other cheek?"

"jihad" is also there in most of the religious sriptures in the world.

I found my english version of the koran gramatically clumsy, and I am not saying this to be mean. I have a degree in English/Brittish lit, and it does not read smoothly, because the translators, more than likely do not own English as their first language and are doing the best they can with a foreign language. When I read the koran, I want to just sit down to the computer and make the text more smooth and gracefull.

English isn't my mother tongue,but i'd curious to know the grammatical mistakes in the various transalations of the Qur'an.

Arabic is a very rich language and difficult to transalate.Did you know that an average single arabic word has an average of five different english meanings?

I also wish I could take out the parts that teach muslims that it is ok to kill me because I am not muslim.

This has been dealt here:

I was kinda frustrated when i wrote the following post in the link, but most of the points have been covered, i think.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=39468#post39468

I have many muslim friends and I love them very much. I am "ok" that they are not Christians as I am. I wish that the koran would reflect this type of love toward me, because most of my muslim friends do - it is natural to live and let live, and to love others.

The Qur'an gives a lot of respect to people of other faiths.It never condemns anyone to be killed, except for self defense, murder and corruption.. but never innocent people either muslim or non-muslim.

"that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had: saved the life of all mankind."

The prophet himself gave rights to the Christians such as "no church shall be destroyed","worship freely" etc.And once when a christian delegation visited the prophet at madinah,he even let them use the mosque on sunday.Believe me, this kind of tolerance is hard to come by even today.The problem is that people judge Islam by muslims and not by authentic Islamic sources itself.

I am personally very afraid of what happened in London a few weeks back, with a tape of AlQeda coming on CNN and saying that there are more plans to blow up America and London. I hope that the muslim world never experiences western "cell" groups that no one can find, who enter their society as "friends", and then blow up innocent housewives who cart their many crying children to the grocery store for milk and diapers, or people who go to work so their children can have birthday gifts, or the mortgage can be paid.

Don't forget that the Al-Qaeda killed muslims too.No one ever thought about the muslims in WTC, or the attacks in jeddah?

Plus, don't get worried and afraid either.I hope all is well there.

I know the muslim people are good of heart - I only know "good" muslim people, and I love them. I would like to know if there are any muslims out there who would like to translate an "American" version of the Koran (as we have an "American Standard version " of the Bible - it would read smoothly and beautifully, and it would be much more gentle with the passages that "appear" to teach that ending lives of non-muslims is "ok". This would help alot and spread the peace that Islam is supposed to be.

Maybe someone can transalate the Qur'an into american english.But the Qur'an is not a poem book for amusement purposes.It's first and foremost a message to mankind, then come the miracles proving its authenticity from God.

www.miraclesofthequran.com

The story of Abraham and his 2 wives, sarah and hagar teach that both families, Jews/Christians and Muslims should dwell in peace inside Abraham's tent, for God tells Hagar to go back to Abraham's tent with Ishmael and dwell there in peace. She can not because Sarah will not allow it, which is unfortunate. But I want to dwell in peace with the muslim world, and do not believe you are in exile from the Abrahamic family. Please let us live in peace and love. I do not know what christian leaders say, and I dont know what really happens with muslim leaders -

but I do know what the koran teaches and says, and I do know that NY and London have been blown up.

I hope those misconceptions have now been cleared up.

I hope this site explains things much more clearly,

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/

That is enough for me. Forget the leaders. we need a grass roots effort for peace, and we need to re-teach everyone love for one another, and re-translating the koran so that at least in English speaking countries, the Koran would be understood as a book that teaches muslims to love and tolerate non-muslims.

That's what wer'e trying to do.there are so many websites just for the sake of condemning terrorism and saying that it doesn't have anything to do with islam.

But I have also come to understand that many people don't want it to be this way.. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and this has alarmed a lot of people in the west.and thus they resort to media-brainwashing using terms such as "islamic terrorism" or "jihad".

The word "jihad" is often dreaded, but the word "crusade" is described as a fight against unrighteousness, even though the history of this word is very clearly known.

very unfair indeed.

 

[Chalice]

Thank you so much for replying. As always, you respond to me in a way that my Muslim friends have, with peace, honesty, and a good explaination, and I feel safe with that sort of treatment. I did not realize the things you explained, so now I will consider them, and re-read my Koran. the only "major" difference in theology between Islam and Christianity is the "Crucifixion of Jesus" issue, and Christians believe that Christ had to die to aquit all mankind from sin. Because Muslims are not allowed to belive this, I worry about my muslim friends eternal fate, because they have told me that they exped to attend a final judgement where their deeds will be measured. I "know" that because of Christ, their deeds have already been measured at the cross and they ahve been aquitted already.


I am not suggesting that the Koran become a book of poems, at all. I just have trouble reading and understanding it. Let me get it out and "rewrite" a bit of it so that it is easier for me, an English speaking person, to understand:

Al-Isra (17) section 1:

Glory be to him who took his devotee (Muhammad) one night from Masjid-al-Haram (in Makkah) to Masjid-al-aqsa (in Jerusalem), whose vicinity we have blessed, so that we may show him some of our signs: surely he is the one who is the hearer, the observer.

This is not hard to understand, but does not read that smoothly, for me it would be easier to read through if it read this way:

Glory to God: He took Muhammad, his devotee, on a night journey between the Al-Haram Mosque in Mekkah to the Al Aksa Mosque in Jerusalem. God blessed this entire area, and showed many signs. God is the one who hears, the one who observes.
When I read scripture, I often read it out loud so I can fully "get" it, and if the language does not read "smoothly" its tedious and tiring, and I don't "get" it easily. I think the Arabic language must be arranged differently, and I have to re-arrange the sentence in my head so it makes sense to me. My rendition is just "smoother", that's the only way I can describe it. I know translators whose first language is not english would have difficulty with this, so am not complaining, just suggesting this for english readers. This is what I mean.

I also notice that alot of the Koran refers to Biblical stories, and it would be very, very nice if the Koran had notations that referenced the exact Biblical verse/book that was referred to. This would make it easy to go back and forth between the books and read the Biblical story along with the Koranic version, and be able to compare/contrast things. As you pointed out with Jesus sword vs the Jihad, that would help me, a christian, alot in understanding what you are saying inthe Koran and wher eyou are coming from. I think they (someone) should package the Koran in "with" the Bible as one book, with alot of cross references. I think this would be a huge undertaking, especially if they smoothed out the Koran into "today's English version", and then cross-referenced it with the Bible. It would be interesting, and make for peace, I think.

Thank you for listening to me. We live in a scary world. Hope we can all work toward peace together, you are very kind, thanks, Chalice.

 

[the_truth]

Hello Chalice,

Yes,the crucifixion and the divinity of Jesus are the only main differences between our faiths.If we can solve the mystery of these two, the muslims and christians will be united, God willing.

As far as which transalation is "easy" to read,I would suggest Muhammad marmaduke Pickthall's transalation of the Glorious Qur'an or simply known as "Pickthall's transalation".This transalation is by an englishman whose mother tongue is english.He converted to Islam right after transalating the Qur'an.

His transalation is not really the most accurate, but is definitely the most beautiful!!, and if you are searching for truth rather than studying, i would suggest this transalation,because the style and flow is really simple (it's also my personal favoirite ).

you can get it online here:

http://al-sunnah.com/download/QuranPikhtal.pdf

I also notice that alot of the Koran refers to Biblical stories.

Both are from the same source.we have the same prophets too.

and it would be very, very nice if the Koran had notations that referenced the exact Biblical verse/book that was referred to. This would make it easy to go back and forth between the books and read the Biblical story along with the Koranic version, and be able to compare/contrast things.

That would definitely be useful for students of comparative religion.But you see, a lot of the stories are different from the Bible.very,very few stories are similiar.even the prophecies are different from each other

But if you do want the explanation for 'tough-to-understand' verses in the Qur'an, you can get the 'tafsir' or interpretation of the Qur'an in any islam book store, for 'almost correct' understanding.

Thank you for listening to me. We live in a scary world. Hope we can all work toward peace together, you are very kind, thanks, Chalice.

**blush** .. No problem at all, we are always here to help you.Any more questions, just ask!

 

[iBrian]

Well, first of all, it's worth pointing out that Christianity, like Islam, is an exclusive religion - secondly, that like Islam, there is a wide range of political views and attitudes within Christianity itself.

It's also worth pointing out that the names above - Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson, for example - are sometimes regarded as some of the more extreme voices within Christianity.

Overall, I'm not sure what constructive purpose this thread can serve, as a similar but converse list on the Christianity section listing Muslims who preach against Christianity, perhaps including quotes from names such as Bakhri and Hamza, would also serve illustrate little purpose other than there can be extreme voices within Islam.

I'm tempted to close this thread, but I won;t yet as I'd like to see something useful come out of this first.

the_truth, have you any specific pointers and questions you would like to raise on this thread issue that Christians could perhaps more properly address?

 

[the_truth]

Brian, no i don't have any questions, that i would like to raise on this thread.

I watch benny hinn almost everyday on tv now.I wonder how many more muslims watch him too, so judging by his calm and friendly nature, this piece of info took me by surprise.

The reason why i started this thread was because i was kinda shocked at the kind of intolerant attitude from these top Christian Leaders, so i wanted to share it with my muslim brothers and sisters.

let's say i took it as a 'news' thread.If that's against the rules, my apologies.

If u would wish to close this thread, i have got no objection.

but before that, i'm curious to know why you consider Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson 'extreme' voices within Christianity? Benny Hinn especially, has a wide acceptance everywhere.

 

[iBrian]

Actually, I may well be confused about the names in question - my apologies for that. Let me re-orientate - Franklin Graham is the relative of Billy, who get into trouble for being exclusively Christian after 9/11? And isn't Benny Hinn someone with a big fraud case against him in the past??

On the quotes, though - okay, looking at them more closely, Benny Hinn isn't quoted as making war on Arabs - the quote explicitly mentions that there is a war between God and Satan, which appears in response to 9/11. The only way I see a reading as this against Islam, is if Islam is going to be seen to condone 9/11 as a Holy act. Do you think Islam makes this implicit statement?

As for Pat Robertson's comments - there seems to be some heavy editing to create a statement, but the claim that Arabs threaten Jews is not a basis for contention, if some of the teachings in Palestinian schools about the evil nature of Jews is to be accepted.

Also, the Buckley comments claim terrorism is all due to Atheists, not Islam. Seems that there is a real stretch of imagination required to believe that what is being made is a Christian case against Islam.

It seems that some of the quotes especially are being far exaggerated from their original context, and any kind of comment criticising any kind of Arab is being used to claim a slight against Islam, which is not something I so far see as justified.

Overall, I have difficulty reading the original pasted post as attempting to do anything other than inflame Muslim opinion against Christian, on what appears to be a relatively flimsy basis.

Perhaps we should move this to the Christian board for a more proper response, though, as you seemed to invite specifically Christian responses??

 

[the_truth]

Personally, i don't think that this thread would have inflamed muslim opinion against Christianity at all.

Perhaps we should move this to the Christian board for a more proper response, though, as you seemed to invite specifically Christian responses??

This was just a 'news' thread.I did not know that this was against the rules.Plus, I never had Christian responses in my mind, when i had started the thread.

i really don't know, what should be done. you do what u think is right.

 

[Quahom1]

Personally, i don't think that this thread would have inflamed muslim opinion against Christianity at all.



This was just a 'news' thread.I did not know that this was against the rules.Plus, I never had Christian responses in my mind, when i had started the thread.

i really don't know, what should be done. you do what u think is right.

Hello the_Truth, and welcome to CR.

Perhaps the title is what would catch the attention of people, and make them curious to come see what "this is all about" (it did me).

Personally, I am sorry for some of the comments made by these highly visible "preachers of Christ". They in no means represent the mainstream thought of America towards Islam. In fact, you might be surprised to know that the basic understanding of Islam has risen in the United States by a good 25%, over the past 4 years. That is significant. Though you might see such "rhetoric" from some, disguised as religious righteousness, it isn't righteous at all. Franklin Graham for example, is definitely not his father. And Pat Robertson, has agendas all his own.

However this is a place for encouraging dialogue. The news can be gotten anywhere...wherein personal input and thoughts are rather unique to the individual presenting them, wouldn't you agree?

I do appreciate how you answered the questions of others, such as Chalice. That was insightful and enlightening, and appreciated. Just one more step to better understanding for all concerned (which I think the whole world can be counted).

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[Chalice]

Hi, it is me, Chalice, and I would like to comment on this observation. As you might notice from some of my posts, I'm a Christian and I'm also searching where I "fit" best in the religious world. Over the years, I've "visited" Mormonism for 5 years, as well as investigating Wicca, Druidism, and I read Tarot Cards to boot, but I dont think any of that makes me "evil" - I've discovered that the "end" of Christianity I come from (Very conservative, evangelical Christianity) enjoys "scaring" people and using subtle forms of mind controll, not to get people to do wrong things, but to keep them in line in their tithing and volunteering, and teaching them that there is "one" right way to think, vote, and live, including the choice of friends and marriage partners, etc. As I have looked into other religions, I have found that outside the "who is Jesus" question, most religions strive for the same things - understand the unseen divine world, trying to get needs/prayers met and answered, and trying to make the world peacefull so their lives can function. Some religions use the "tactic" that making everyone into a clone/drone is best, and tell people that certain behaviors are acceptable and certain ones are not, and that is where people develop prejudices toward others. Once I broke through the "fear", and just started to read, I found that most people have no more and no less power than I have, and they just want the same thing. But some people get side tracked into thinking they have to force others into their ways to get the world to function on their version of things overall - those that don't conform "mess" up the world for the ones who are trying to organize it by certain standards. Muslim and Jewish extreemists are as guilty as Christian extreemists like David Koresh or Jim Jones. Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson and some others are the leaders of these types of groups, but to a much lesser degree, as they do not kill anyone. But they are the ones telling all of American Christendom what they should think, wear, do, who to be friends with, and so forth. Why? Because they have a tv show that anyone out there can tune in to. Are they giving bad advice? Prob. not, but they are telling people what the "correct" standards are according to their interpretation of the Bible, a book most in America adheres to for spiritual and moral guidance.

but before that, i'm curious to know why you consider Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson 'extreme' voices within Christianity? Benny Hinn especially, has a wide acceptance everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Inside Christianity, like other faiths, you have people that just go overboard with what they want people to do: they expect to much time and money as a commitment, or they want people to be overly moral, when most people just can not live to that level of righteousness, for example most people don't commit adultery, but they want to be so sure that you don't they make you wear ugly clothes that is uncomfortable and drab in color. Christ never said that. He never told the woman caught in adultery to go home and change fashions - just to stop sleeping around. He didn'd care about what fashion she wore, but the Evangelical Christians (and prob the Muslim Extreemists) do... Most of the TV evangelists are this type. Sorry to tell you this. But they are. they don't instruct people to blow things up, but may support the idea that "Good Christians will not marry non-Christians", Good Christians won't wear this type of jewelry, make-up or shoes, Good Christians will home school, Good Christians will attend 3 Bible studies a week - AKK! I can't do all that! I have to send my ADHD kids to school or i'll go nuts! I like wearing makeup and heels, I think Celtic jewelry is cool not "devilish", and I'm bored with their repetitive Bible Studies. This type of thinking forms special groups of people while making others feel left out. I recently aquired two books on "Abusive Churches", and let me tell you, if you surf the web for spiritual, emotional, financial, or verbal abuse, you will be surprised that Churches use all these tactics on their membership, in a very subtle format. Go into any Evangelical Church and you will get hit with alot of mantra like music for about 15-45 minutes at the beginning, where you have to repeat the chorus of some pop-Christian song over and over (brainwashing?)- you do not learn anything from the "hymn" like the old hymns were able to teach. The sermon is very second grade level and bores me to death, as I am a college level thinker and don't need a simplistic sermon to "stay together, pray together and play together" for Marriage instruction, I know this already, infinity, as that is all they talk about there. They have three basic "core" sermons that get delivered "adnausium" - Christian Marriage, Christian Child rearing, and Fund Raising for the new building, which by the way plagues the congregation with one phase after the other and each building costs millions. I attended a Southern Baptist Church for years, and when I began in 1990 they had the building program going on - today (8-15-05) it is still going on,and they still cry and beg for money as if they were running out and ready to go on welfare! When I asked the YMCA why they can function on much less money, but have a similar new building, exercise and Bible study programs like local churches have, and more employees compared to local churches, the Financial Director told me "everyone knows that Fundamentalist Churches exist for one reason: building a building." That is not why a church should exist. Christ never advocated a "building project". But TV preachers like Benny Hinn and his "at-home" counterpart advocate this. They also play alot of sad music just before asking for extra money as a psychological "trick" to get people in the emotional mood to give, and give alot. People who have not attended for their lives may not recognize these abuses, because it all looks so "glittering" from the outside. Alot of people on the inside have been brainwashed to think it's all right and don't even know to think about it.

Yes, Benny Hinn represents the way alot of Evangelical ministers deliver information in many Evangelical Churches, and he is at the "overboard" end of Christendom. And the adultery that is clichet with TV evangelists? that's common as well, even in non-tv churches, because our minister had an affair for 5 y ears, while getting paid to recycle old sermons, while the decons approved him to purchase pre-written sermons from the book store. We had to pay for counciling of his family, purchase new doors with windows for the interior of the building, and at the end they decided to give him a "forgiveness" party with snacks, punch and baloons - ridiculous~! So I have not attended there becuase it is not about christ, the bible, morals, and so forth. It is about him taking all my money and then doing the things he told me were wrong! You can trust the Bible, but not some of these sharks.

There may be good, moral Christian ministers out there. I know there are less right-wing churches out there who are not as radical, but unfortunately, alot of these churches approve other things that directly disagree with the Bible - homosexuality, abortion, being the main ones I can think of right now.

It's a wierd world we live in - the moral leadership is the most corrupt group out there. If they would just leave us alone, we might all live in peace - but I think they have brainwashed us all to be prejudice...that makes no sense to me.

Anyway, I hope this thread promotes Jews, Christians and Muslims to be at peace and be friends with each other somehow. What I want to know is how do the Muslim holidays coincide with the Christian and Jewish ones? Maybe there is a cross-over and we could understand each other better, and even celebrate together somehow. Why don't we start out with a party? Hey?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I just want to say that as a Christian I do not set myself in the same group as Benny Hinn.. period. He's crazy... Please do not think that we are like him.. Pat is also a bit too much for my tastes. Theres a website that posts Heretical comments made by televangelists.. Its actually scary the stuff they are documented saying. Id post the link but I cant.. lol.. no promoting other sites. However, if you want to see it you can pm me and I'll send it to you.

 

[iBrian]

Hey, you're fine to post links - the prohibition on promotion is simply when people come in just to advertise and promote themselves - links to third-party sites are usually fine.

 

[Friend]

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything. There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost, they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Hi

Chalice,I want to tell you that if you want to understand Quraan verses you must return to the occasion when verses sent from Allah to his messenger Mohammad (PUH) through angel Jebreal (PUH) .... Because many verses send to explain how we as Muslim behave in certain issues.... the verses of Jehad sent in certain conditions we muslim know it so these verses explained in accordance these conditions ... the problem that some muslims (like your situation when you read Quraan without returns to interpretations to understand it) ... so they think that they should attack Christians .

these verses which you read about Jehad must be read within the context
to understand which group they talked about? .. Why ? ... when ??...

not all Christians are enemies to Muslims ...at the same time not all Muslims are enemies of Christians ... only those whom can't understand the basics of their religions do that .

Thanks for your informative discussion

 

[Faithfulservant]

http://www.ondoctrine.com/10tbn.htm

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-heresy.html

both of these links are pages of heretical comments made by these very visible people. Like I said.. pretty scary stuff.

 

[Chalice]

You know, call me crazy, but I agree with you, and I think that the Muslim's who like and respect Christians and Jews (and others) need an "Evangelistic" sort of TV show that explains this stuff to the general public, I know I would tune in to a "preacher" type person who does a Koranic study and explains what the verses mean and how they relate to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, and how it is all peacefull, and how the verses that "appear" attacking are not understood and what they really mean and so forth. I think someone should have this type of TV show and an "American Standard Version" of the Koran to offer for free to everyone so we can all be on the "same" page. I did notice something in the Koran, I can not remember where, but one section on Jesus being the Messiah speaks of his death and resurrection, but it's not obvious, but it is there, and when I read that I felt like, hey, Muslims "can" believe in the death and resurrection of Christ; unfortunately, another verse teaches the opposite, which makes the Koran confusing. I contend that the verse that agrees with Christianity (that the death and resurrection were real) are the ones that the Prophet Muhammed intended, and maybe some early scribe put in the disagreeing verse. Because it is not logical for Muhammed to go against what earlier religions taught on this topic, especially if the same God revealed it to two other faiths that the crucifixion, and resurrection are absolutely going to happen (Psalm 92, Isaiah 53, Zechariah 3). I think that one verse section that says Christ was not crucified/resurrected was added, and that's what is throwing everyone off. I realize that the Koran functions as an etiquette book as well, telling followers what "correct" behavior is, and what is not. I have no problem with that at all, unless it is to difficult. For example, I live in the deep (and hot/muggy) south, and those long clothes the women wear? I could only do that if I was a corpse - way to hot for me. I see these sweet Muslim women sitting by the pool side in our 97 degree heat and 150% humidity with their head all bound up in fabric, with a long sleeved shirt on that is buttoned up to the neck and "over" the head peace that is tucked into the shirt, long pants, socks and shoes on. That woman should be crowned a saint just for having to get dressed! The ones who wear the gowns, they have got to be just as hot. I don't know what the other rules are, but if they are as uncomfortable as that, I doubt many people will convert to Islam, just based on comfort level.

I just think that public, open communication would be great. I know that TBN displays the most conservative and "wacko" christians out there, but they get their message out and good explanations, most of the time. Maybe the Muslim community owes the American people this type of television, so we all know what is going on...That would be a start.

I am planning to look at "Faithful Servant's" links about these wacky evangelists - they are just to overboard and demanding for me. They make it known that we are "required" to live by their standards, not God's, and they get wackier as time goes on. Maybe that is the only way they can increase their viewership...All tv has to become more and more sensational.

 

[thipps]

h|,
i have to jump in here.

You know, call me crazy, but I agree with you, and I think that the Muslim's who like and respect Christians and Jews (and others) need an "Evangelistic" sort of TV show that explains this stuff to the general public, I know I would tune in to a "preacher" type person who does a Koranic study and explains what the verses mean and how they relate to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, and how it is all peacefull, and how the verses that "appear" attacking are not understood and what they really mean and so forth. I think someone should have this type of TV show and an "American Standard Version" of the Koran to offer for free to everyone so we can all be on the "same" page.

In saudi arabia, we get the GOD channel. Yes, stuff like this is actually legally allowed here. I watch it sometimes. I have mixed feelings about it. If they'd stick to Christianity and/or judaism, it would be fine (which they do mostly) but saying lies about Islam,... well, i really dont need to say the obvious.
Regarding a good enligsh translation, the one by Hilali and Khan is better than the other ones i.e. Pickthall, Shakir and Yusuf Ali as its in modern english (no thou or thee in it)

I did notice something in the Koran, I can not remember where, but one section on Jesus being the Messiah speaks of his death and resurrection, but it's not obvious, but it is there, and when I read that I felt like, hey, Muslims "can" believe in the death and resurrection of Christ; unfortunately, another verse teaches the opposite, which makes the Koran confusing. I contend that the verse that agrees with Christianity (that the death and resurrection were real) are the ones that the Prophet Muhammed intended, and maybe some early scribe put in the disagreeing verse. Because it is not logical for Muhammed to go against what earlier religions taught on this topic, especially if the same God revealed it to two other faiths that the crucifixion, and resurrection are absolutely going to happen (Psalm 92, Isaiah 53, Zechariah 3). I think that one verse section that says Christ was not crucified/resurrected was added, and that's what is throwing everyone off.

Your statements are based on your own interpretations of the OT cause Jews disagree with Christians on mostly everything regarding Jesus(pbuh) (More than Christians and Muslims). So, there is no precedence for you to state that God revealed it two other faiths. One could, in light of this, turn the tables on you using precedence as an argument for proof. By the way, i read Zechariah 3 just to see what you wanted to say, I didnt see a crucifixion/resurrection mentioned nor did Matthew Henry's Commentary say anything about it. What I have said uptil now, is something for you to think about, not something to reply to. You are new here, so you dont know the rules that well regarding faith-specific boards.
That having said, what you have claimed regarding your readings of the Quran and then subsequently attacking it by saying that text was added into it, is unacceptable on the Islam board especially in light of the fact that you have provided nothing but ur faulty memory for reference. Please do not repeat such things on the Islam board. If you finally do remember the verse(s), by all means, you can ask for clarification. But if you feel that you must continue your current train of thought, then please use the Comparative Studies section of the forum.

I realize that the Koran functions as an etiquette book as well, telling followers what "correct" behavior is, and what is not. I have no problem with that at all, unless it is to difficult.

we are taught that this life is a test for the hereafter. So, difficulties are definitely going to arise. One will often be faced with making the choice betweent what is right and what is easy.

That woman should be crowned a saint just for having to get dressed! The ones who wear the gowns, they have got to be just as hot. I don't know what the other rules are, but if they are as uncomfortable as that, I doubt many people will convert to Islam, just based on comfort level.

we'll leave the rewarding to God. And considering that Islam is fastest growing religion, i'd say people have bigger issues in mind.

Maybe the Muslim community owes the American people this type of television, so we all know what is going on...That would be a start.

Agreed. i dont know if they are actually doing such a thing or not in the US. Considering your thougts, they probably arent.
Hope this clears up a few things.

 

[Quahom1]

h|,

Agreed. i dont know if they are actually doing such a thing or not in the US. Considering your thougts, they probably arent.
Hope this clears up a few things.

Local cable. Places that have rather large populations of Arab-Americans, like Green Belt, OH, Dearborn/Detroit/Southfield, MI. Well established lobbying groups for the local governments and general population awareness, too.

v/r

Q

 

[kittycat]

The Truth,hello friend, anyone that attacks another religion is ignorant.We should all respect each other and their beliefs................

 

[Quahom1]

The Truth,hello friend, anyone that attacks another religion is ignorant.We should all respect each other and their beliefs................

I think there are exceptions to the rule. Davidian cult, comes to mind...