Return of the mosiach and the regathering

[pohaikawahine]

i read at the judaism 101 site more about the mosiach and basically it states that the eventual coming of the mosiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional judaism and is part of rambam's 13 principles of faith

"i believe with perfect faith in the coming of the mosiach, and though he may tarry, still i await him every day" principle 12 of rambam's 13 principles of faith

also stated is that modern scholars suggest that the mesianic concept was introduced later in the history of judaism, during the age of prophets, and that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the torah but is inherent in traditional judaism.

on my own path i look at symbols and their meanings as the link between all ancient traditions and ways in terms of spiritual knowledge and the concept that there will eventually be the coming of a mosiach and the 12 lost tribes will regather and there will be a return to the golden age of peace is a powerful focus for the future and for now .... let me state that i deeply believe with all my heart and soul that there will be a 'regathering' and it will take place in the 'promised land' and the 'mosiach' will return, but my interpretation of all of this is not from a literal perspective but a symbolic one.

the literal interpretation, again in my view, plays itself out in the world today through division of people, division of faith, hate, and war .... the side of chaos .... another interpretation of the same words, through my view again, can bring people together in one understanding and bring about harmony and peace .... the symbolic role of the 'twins' ....

how do others understand the words "i believe with perfect faith in the coing of the mosiach, and though he may tarry, still i await him every day"? i was hoping that people would share their personal views as well as biblical quotes on where we are today and what our future holds on this concept of the return of the mosiach ....

 

[dauer]

I reject Rambam's 13 statements of faith. There are a few I believe in, or at least don't extremely disbelieve, and then the rest I would do away with entirely, or at least reformat until they became nearly unrecognizable. BB and I had this discussion and I suggested, or maybe he suggested, I don't remember, that the Shema would be a better statement of faith.

As I have said on some occasions, and not said on others, I reject the divine origin of Torah and feel no need to back my beliefs about the moshiach with an ancient text. As paradigms shift, so too can our understandings of the texts to the point that we no longer need to see things as literal, or even see the texts as bearing more than generationally limited meaning at all, not that I don't see truths buried in those sandy scrolls of sagely scribes. Surely, a stolid speaker stung sweetly by said scroll's scintillating songs should suddenly switch: saint! ...Sorry.

What is the moshiach? I think the moshiach is each person who offers hope in times of darkness, but I also think that moshiach is that lubricating quality we have that helps life run more smoothly when applied. But I also think that moshiach is a beautiful myth that can be translated, like most all myths, into any age and used as a source of inspiration. And I could keep going on. It's not that I believe moshiach is anything. It is what it has proven itself to be. What it has not proven itself to be, and by it I mean the concept, this it cannot be said with surety -- at least by myself -- to be. I'm more interested in what is experientially valuable and pragmatically beneficial, and often there seems to be overlap.

Dauer

 

[pohaikawahine]

What is the moshiach? I think the moshiach is each person who offers hope in times of darkness, but I also think that moshiach is that lubricating quality we have that helps life run more smoothly when applied. But I also think that moshiach is a beautiful myth that can be translated, like most all myths, into any age and used as a source of inspiration. And I could keep going on. It's not that I believe moshiach is anything. It is what it has proven itself to be. What it has not proven itself to be, and by it I mean the concept, this it cannot be said with surety -- at least by myself -- to be. I'm more interested in what is experientially valuable and pragmatically beneficial, and often there seems to be overlap.

Dauer

i agree with this to an extent .... but only a slightly different bent on the concept of what is a moshiach .... i think the moshiach is each of us and can be each of us .... but not so much offering hope in times of darkness, but rather reaching into the path of darkness (the inner path) and emerging in the light of knowledge .... you have mentioned the 'lubricating quality' several times in different threads, which i think comes from the words about the 'annointed one' .... when the internal energy moves through the darkness of the inner body it must pass through the base of the brain into the brain itself .... on this path it must pass by two small glands that have a name likened to the word for olives ....this is suppose to be the 'annointment with olive oil' part of the process .... probably sounds a little too far fetched for many, but it makes sense to me ....

i am mostly interested not in what one rejects, but in what we can agree on as a possibility .... to me words like "i reject" only place barriers to dialogue .... since i am not jewish i was only trying to use a reference about the return of the moshiach since it seemed to be pretty central to judaism .... perhaps i was not correct and it is not a significant theme ....i don't really know what is a good reference to articles of faith for judaism ....the concept of the return of the mosiach or a prophet is central to many other traditions, the return of one who will change our world .... what i do know and feel is that the torah, the zohar and many other texts of judaism draw me in a way that i cannot fully explain .... they make sense to me and those things that i believe i know ....

we can get caught up on the semantics of it all and reject or accept pieces, but the bottom line .... literally or symbolically does anyone believe in the concept of a regathering, the return of the annointed one or ones, and a better world ....

 

[dauer]

Poh,

I think most of all I reject the word "belief." I don't really hold beliefs. I experience things, and accept them as experiences while not using my experiences as verifications of objective truth, or I don't experience things, and maybe I tell stories, but once I've done that it becomes some type of an experience anyway. And I still remain an agnostic about it. I'm a Jewish experiential soft agnostic with a sweet tooth.

So I guess, now that I've thought about it, no, I don't believe that the moshiach is anything but a limited concept that may have been influenced by the Sayoshant or may have evolved due to the situation at the time, but at the same time it's comforting for me to hold onto the later messianic concept in some form. And I do that in multiple ways. I couldn't believe, either literally or symbolically, because that would require that I believe in the text itself, which I don't.

Dauer

 

[MWolf]

i agree with this to an extent .... but only a slightly different bent on the concept of what is a moshiach .... i think the moshiach is each of us and can be each of us .... but not so much offering hope in times of darkness, but rather reaching into the path of darkness (the inner path) and emerging in the light of knowledge .... you have mentioned the 'lubricating quality' several times in different threads, which i think comes from the words about the 'annointed one' .... when the internal energy moves through the darkness of the inner body it must pass through the base of the brain into the brain itself .... on this path it must pass by two small glands that have a name likened to the word for olives ....this is suppose to be the 'annointment with olive oil' part of the process .... probably sounds a little too far fetched for many, but it makes sense to me ....

i am mostly interested not in what one rejects, but in what we can agree on as a possibility .... to me words like "i reject" only place barriers to dialogue .... since i am not jewish i was only trying to use a reference about the return of the moshiach since it seemed to be pretty central to judaism .... perhaps i was not correct and it is not a significant theme ....i don't really know what is a good reference to articles of faith for judaism ....the concept of the return of the mosiach or a prophet is central to many other traditions, the return of one who will change our world .... what i do know and feel is that the torah, the zohar and many other texts of judaism draw me in a way that i cannot fully explain .... they make sense to me and those things that i believe i know ....

we can get caught up on the semantics of it all and reject or accept pieces, but the bottom line .... literally or symbolically does anyone believe in the concept of a regathering, the return of the annointed one or ones, and a better world ....

Hello...This is my first post...I am coming from having lived an orthodox Jewish lifestyle for many years...presently very secular but still a 'believer'...

The concept of a regathering is called 'ingathering of the exiles' or 'Geh-u-lah' in Hebrew. The 'Geula' is the Final Redemption brought about by the Messiah and is synonymous with the Rebuilding of the Holy Temple. This is the standard traditional view as a belief that was formulated by the RamBam, (Moses Maimon) in the 12th century. Maimonides is considered to be among the greatest of rabbinical leaders and authorities in Jewish history. Futhermore, the Chassidic branch of Judaism initiated by the Baal Shem Tov in the 18th century, considers that its purpose is to 'bring the Moshiach'. This is based on a vision that the Baal Shem Tov related that Moshiach's answer to his question, "When will you, King Moshiach, come?” Moshiach answered "When your well-springs overflow to the outside". This is interpreted to mean that when Chassidut ('Chassidus', alternative pronunciation) is disseminated throughout the world, then and only then is the time ripe for the King Messiah to arrive and rebuild the Holy Temple. So yes, many millions of Jews throughout the world believe in the Geula and the coming of the Moshiach; it may be termed a 'return' of the Moshiach because some believe that the Moshiach to come is the reincarnation of Moses because just as Moses redeemed the Israelites from Egypt in the first exile, so too, in the last exile.

However, as this is the final redemption, it is inclusive of not only the Jews but of all mankind. This really is not a secular view that goes out of the bounds of Jewish tradition, but actually, the Messiah and the Messiah generation, Jew and non-Jew alike, are all believed to be meritorious to the extreme (or conversely, tradition has it that if the generation is evil to the extreme and God intervenes by bringing Messiah). This merit is the merit of Torah study, taken to mean the study of the soul of the Torah, i.e., its hidden significance or Kabbalah.

The soul of the Torah is the 'secret meaning' of the Torah. This is not so much a secret that one has to hide and conceal it, but rather its secret meaning is difficult to know without gaining a pervasive understanding that the names of God that are written in the Torah have specific meanings that relate to the traits of God, the Sephirot, and indeed, every word of the Torah is considered like a Name. Chassidut has a focus of using the secret meanings of the Torah as a motivation to 'Tsuvah', repentance. Repentance is considered a prime cause of bringing Moshiach (as is 'Tsedokah', giving charity, deeds of kindness without thought of tax-deductions, etc.).

With the teachings of Kabbalah readily available today, it is a reason to be optimistic that a better world is emerging from chaoses of war and terror.

 

[pohaikawahine]

oh dauer, you are a sweetheart and i love that description of yourself .... and wwolf you have lifted my heart with your post as i also 'believe' and 'know in my heart of hearts' that the regathering will take place and this will be a better world .... much 'secret' knowledge of the past has been set free, in hawaii we called this knowledge the 'huna' which is translated as 'secret' but actually refers to the 'sacred' .... everywhere the words have been set free and allowed to fly .... when we wish to change our circumstances, all we have to do is release our present condition, it will be gone .... if on the other hand we find it useful to continue, we can hang on to the problem and not let it go .... in the way of hawaii we have a process called 'ho'oponopono' which means to 'make right' or to return the balance .... I sense the symbol of the star of david is 'ho'oponopono' a return to the perfect balance ....

aloha nui, poh

 

[Dondi]

As I have said on some occasions, and not said on others, I reject the divine origin of Torah and feel no need to back my beliefs about the moshiach with an ancient text.

dauer, not to get off topic, but I'm quite curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the Torah is not of divine origin. I didn't know up til now that you were a "soft agnostic". How does one remain a Jew and not believe in the One G-d of the Tanach?

 

[dauer]

dauer, not to get off topic, but I'm quite curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the Torah is not of divine origin.

A better question to me would be how anyone could come to the conclusion that any single sacred texts out of all the sacred texts both living and dead is actually Truth. There is no persuasive evidence to suggest that the relic we call the Torah is from God any more than there is to suggest the Quran or the Enuma Elish is from God. It befuddles me that anyone would challenge a non-theist position, although I don't see any more truth in the atheist position either. Both are based on unnecessary and rash assumptions about the nature of the cosmos. However, I have nothing against any position that is not leading to harm. Whether it leads to good or not, even this is not a concern for me. As long as someone else's position on the nature of the world does not lead to harm, I can completely honor where they stand, or at least struggle to do so, as humans so often do.

How does one remain a Jew and not believe in the One G-d of the Tanach?

If you think I'm a surprise, it's too bad there aren't any atheist Jews on here. Judaism is the last surviving of those nations that were also religions, where the boundaries between nation, religion, and culture were completely blurred. It's not a faith, as Christianity is. A person is a Jew based on their parentage, or based on conversion which when you think about it gives that individual a new spiritual parentage. Acting, in Judaism, is far more essential than believing. But for my part:

subjectively, I know God is. My subjective experience is that God is, everywhere I go. I talk to God. I was singing an English version of Yedid Nefesh at the second meal on Shabbos a couple Shabboses ago, and I started to cry. So I started really, really davenning an English translation of tehillim. I pray in Hebrew too. But to get to my heart I need the English. It goes deeper. Subjectively, that's how I live.

But objectively, I reject that any of that is evidence of God. I won't accept the subjective as valid proof for the objective. I also won't deny myself the experience of being with God, and of having all of those beautiful archetypes to call upon, and all of those beautiful rituals to take part in, and to see the Torah as she goes around the procession, and when they undress her I get so excited because subjectively I can let myself see her as more than just an old and dusty scroll. That's why I say I'm an experiential agnostic with a sweet tooth.

Dauer

 

[pohaikawahine]

i was reading something about bahya ben joseph ibn paquda from 'know god with your heart' and it said that he encouraged his students to begin wtih a study of nature before moving on to more abstract subjects and he said "whenever you imagine him in some form or think of him as resembling something, you should endeavor to examine his meaning further .... until the image is driven away from your mind and you reach him by way of demonstration only" .... the mind, according to bahya, should function as a discriminating corraborator of direct religious experience and not of blind belief or tradition ....(from perl epstein's kaballah) .... there is no doubt that judaism is a unifying concept yet so diverse and complex .... the torah however seems to pull it all together ... so there are stages that one must pass through such as cultivating awe and eventually cleaving to god .... i would think that it is a positive thing to be an agnostic at some point because it could be seen as part of the cultivation of awe (just my thoughts here) ....


as a child i was baptised in the catholic tradition, but i left the church when i couldn't reconcile how a just god would allow so much injustice in the world .... i became an agnostic and thus began a long journey (almost too long it seems) to find who i really am .... i returned to the ancient path of hawaii nei and began a process of slowly interpreting the chant of creation .... I also began looking at other ancient traditions and looking for links in the 'sounds' of the language .... and ultimately the 'symbols' .... then one day it all came together and i became a believer and understood that we are much more than we think we are .... the most powerful words that came in my dreams were "open your eyes and see with your soul" .... and all the sounds and all the symbols linked .... that is why i can safely and with confidence say that the ingathering will take place (now that I know the correct term thanks to MWolf) and our world can and will change ....

i also just learned about thirteen divine attributes which do not include a reference to the mosiach and with much excitement i read about 'chayot' (the lightening flash) which is one of my favorite symbols .... the flash of lightening is a sacred sign in many native american traditions and is also found in hawaiian traditions as well as some asian traditions .... a powerful symbol ....it is said that the voice of the gods is carried in the flash of lightening .... the thunderbolt which is also the symbol of the thunderbeings .... the phoenix who rises from the ashes .... (and now I need to go back to the stream of consciousness that you started dauer .... because this is the next piece) ....

as more people see the 'chayot' the consciousness of the world will move to a higher frequency and the ingathering will begin, and perhaps it has already begun .... there is much beauty ahead ....he hawai'i au, poh

 

[dauer]

Poh,

one of the reasons that such positions develop in Judaism may be because of its position on idolatry, however, I don't feel like I am in a passing stage as far as my agnosticism. I don't feel constant doubt. I am quite comfortable where I am. The way my mind works, I compartmentalize everything, including my roles in the world. When I am a listener, I listen. When I am a speaker, I speak. When I am a speaker, it is difficult to listen. So too with the objective and subjective. And it works very well for me.

You might be interested in some of the writings of Gershon Winkler. He's been uncovering the shamanic in Judaism and has been working among aboriginal peoples for some time now. This site has some of his material, although his books would have more:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id15.html

Some of the links to other pages on that site on the top of that page you may find more relevant.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

I pray in Hebrew too. But to get to my heart I need the English. It goes deeper. Subjectively, that's how I live.

i'm like completely opposite. i can't even get to the heart without the right sort of hebrew accent. it's at the heart of the concept of "lashon qodesh" for me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

There is something special for me about praying in Hebrew, but because I only understand very little, it can't really get to my heart.

 

[bananabrain]

i have to say that it was understanding the nistar end of prayer that made me realise how important the hebrew actually is. i am greatly in favour of what i call "davening-led spirituality" - as opposed to the more common kashrut-stringency-led spirituality, (pesach-dik bog-roll, anyone?) or fundraising-led spirituality (i don't actually engage with my judaism, but at least i assuage it by giving money to people with big beards or orange t-shirts) or my particular favourite, tsniut-led spirituality (get those sleeves a good cubit below your elbow, you brazen hussy - and make sure you have a mashgiach at your step class, so we can keep an eye on your sisterhood of yoyo-knickered trollops). actually, this is probably not a good road for me to start down, eh.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[lunamoth]

Hi BB,

I don't understand at least half of what you said in the post above but I got enough to be rolling on the floor.

cheers,
lunamoth

 

[bananabrain]

lunamoth - if you did understand it, you'd be at least as fed up as i am with the state of my religion. what a bunch of daft beardy-weirdies they can be - or, indeed, what a bunch of smug, self-satisfied, suburban, 4x4-driving curtain twitchers too scared of the world to explore it. gah.

on the other hand, you have to love 'em - or at least i do. that's mishpacha (family) for you.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[lunamoth]

lunamoth - if you did understand it, you'd be at least as fed up as i am with the state of my religion. what a bunch of daft beardy-weirdies they can be - or, indeed, what a bunch of smug, self-satisfied, suburban, 4x4-driving curtain twitchers too scared of the world to explore it. gah.

on the other hand, you have to love 'em - or at least i do. that's mishpacha (family) for you.

b'shalom

bananabrain

haha! It is like family, isn't it. I think every religion has it's daffy and frustrating, weird, and downright annoying sides. Yes, gotta love 'em (and hope they'll put up with me in return!)

lunamoth

 

[Bandit]

haha! It is like family, isn't it. I think every religion has it's daffy and frustrating, weird, and downright annoying sides. Yes, gotta love 'em (and hope they'll put up with me in return!)

lunamoth

i hear that. it is like everyone in there favorite rocking chair, rocking so hard til it falls over.
i think, "how can they believe that way" & they are going "how can Bandit believe that way"
I know some of my beliefs sound koo koo, because i have heard some koo koo ones too.
you say to yourself, "How in the world does THAT fit with this?"

but when we can laugh about it & still love each other, then it is a family. the family of koo koo beliefs.

 

[dauer]

I don't think the nistar makes the Hebrew essential, because we can chose what nistar to emphasize, or what new nistar to birth. So from a Renewal perspective I would see the progression through the different parts of the service as a movement through the four worlds, and I might do some kavvanot around that too. In reality, I don't think i could live with only English. But I couldn't live with only Hebrew either. One has all of the cultural baggage I love, and the other is the language I speak with. Like what Nachman was getting at with his form of hitbodedut, he knew the language of the common man was important, talking to God in the language of birth.

I think that my complaints about certain factions in Judaism would for the most part be the same as yours, although you'd probably complain about my people too. A word used in Renewal is Davenology, which refers to the science of davenning, something sorely lacking in many many shuls. Too many rabbis are trained not for spiritual work.

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

ok, of course we have an option to work with, or create various types of nistar. what i am saying is that i believe nistar is intimately bound up with the possibilities of the hebrew language and, more or less, 'twas ever thus.

there's also something about the role of aramaic - the vernacular of its time. of course there's aramaic in the service, kaddish for example, which would lead us to conclude that it is of course permissible to speak to the Divine in our own languages; this is why the passover seder is generally done in english in even the frummer circles that i inhabit. the "cultural baggage" of english is all very well, but it can have unwanted effects; the best example of this is what is known as the "seder night snigger" when we refer to egypt as the "house of bondage". deary me.

on the other hand, the zohar is in aramaic, which would tend to indicate that it's a suitable language for nistar, as indeed the inclusion of "berich shemeh" in the Torah service would indicate. for me, this would indicate a rootedness in a set time-period for certain purposes.

i think we agree about davenology, althought the name makes me cringe. if anything, my own personal "renewal" has been entirely enabled by more or less self-taught davenology, as well as nistar; the accent and so on being crucial to this, which is why i insist upon it. everything else is driven off that.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

My feeling about using English is that there should be some conciousness about the most essential and transcendent Hebrew terminology, and that this should be introduced into any English study or prayer in order to create a sort of Judeo-English. I would also include some yiddish, but that's the ashkenazi in me. I think including yiddish is more cultural. But I think in order to keep the concepts clean a Judeo-English is essential. Most people don't know what qorban means, or issur, or kedusha, or tamei, or even Tanach, or chiddush, or halachah, or even baruch, or even what the Tetragrammaton is all about. If we can't get people to learn Hebrew, my feeling is we can get them to learn a few words that are on their own very engaging, each having its own story. And then when they speak and davven the vernacular, they don't lose so much, unless of course you're going by the mystical understandings of the importance of the Hebrew language.

I do indeed make the assumptions about Aramaic in services and the only reasons I think it shouldn't be translated into English in services are because every child knows it, it carries a certain power to it because of the associations we make with it, the actual translation would bother some people during the mourner's, and it exposes people to aramaic.

The only reason I like the word davenology is because it's "so bad it's good." It's like those cheesy "B" sci-fi movies that are just awful, but they're really good because of it, like a good Vincent Price film. It sounds like something I'd learn in a study hall, but nobody learns davenology in a study hall. It's learned in action.

Dauer