Applied Anthropology

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by juantoo3, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Flow!
    OK.

    So then...did the Elohim land in their space craft, do a little genetic manipulation on a batch of proto-apes, create a proto-homo, and turn him/her/them loose...then step back to observe? Adam, Eve, Eden.

    I ask only a little bit tongue in cheek...I've got a pretty good idea what the general consensus is. (Which is why I seldom broach the subject... ;) )

    Perhaps the Neandertal are a failed experiment? Perhaps Adam lived for thousands of years before eating of the tree of knowledge and being cursed with death? Perhaps along with the opening of the door to knowledge of good and evil (morality in the more human sense) came the burden of knowledge for agriculture and animal husbandry, city building, arts and sciences and all that makes for what we call civilization? Perhaps G-d intended for us to be(come) addicted to the opioids in grains and cereals?
     
  2. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Well Juan, let me ask you something. How long do you think it would take you, to name every species, genus etc., on earth?

    Even though it took God about 15 seconds to have that little fact of Adam's first job explained biblically, I got a funny feeling that it took Adams a bit longer to do the actual naming...

    What to you think? Oh, the bible says Adam lived 900 and some odd years. But it doesn't say when he was removed from the garden...On the other hand we know Adam named the animals before...he was banned
    just some thoughts.

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  3. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Q!

    I had always thought the span of Adam's life to have been counted from the fall, that whatever transpired before (including how old Eve was) was not recorded as they two were created to live forever. The countdown of age did not start until death entered the picture, so to speak.

    Then again, I may totally misunderstand. ;)

    That happens a lot, when trying to harmonize religious mythos with scientific mythos, by adding a generous dash at times of really weird sounding chords that seem to be from out of nowhere.
     
  4. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Do you think that perhaps the development of speech might have something to do with that? Have you ever tried to speak with "vampire fangs" in your mouth on Halloween? "I vant to shuck youw bloog!" Maybe it was a matter that when we first started talking that the canine teeth got in way of clear speech and therefore got smaller.
     
  5. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Well, biblically speaking, looking at the chronology of Adam, he and Eve did not have children until after they were booted out of Eden. And in chapter 5, we have Adam bearing Seth at the age of 130. Figuring that Cain slew his brother Abel as a young man (sibling rivalry as it is, we'll say anywhere between 18-30), this means that Adam had roughly a little over 100 years maximum to name all the animals.
     
  6. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Dondi!
    Yours is an intriguing thought, but one I doubt could ever be fully answered.

    :D Then again, Dracula didn't seem to have any issues when wooing his paramours... :cool:

    The researchers I have looked into suggest it is the development of the hyoid bone, the speech box and vocal chords, that determines whether or not an ape family member can speak. The Neandertal may not have had spoken language, their hyoid bone was inferior in development, leading some to suggest they were incapable of speech while others suggest a low guttural sounding voice with limited range and flexibility (meaning fewer "words" could be formed). I haven't seen canine teeth enter this discussion before now.
     
  7. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Hey, maybe I can start a whole new field of study.
     
  8. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Canines effecting speech is indeed an interesting hypothisis but has it not already been demonstrated in skull finds that canines have never been particularly big?

    As for Neanderthals. Why limit communication to speech alone? A less developed speech combined with enhanced visual cues is perfectly capable of providing a rich vibrant language.

    TE
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Now the Ram, Ramtha says that the reptilians came to earth long ago and merged with the proto apes creating the frontal lobe with the intention of creating greedy humans who would eventually mine all the gold out of the earth and then they'd come back and get it when the vast majority of it was stored in warehouses and museums. (since they perfected time travel, they've already done this...so one minute you land on earth and modify the populations dna, then set your clock and half a million years later raid fort knox, head home mission accomplished). So I asked, why earth, why gold? And was told that gold was rare in the universe and that they looked for planets with life forms which could be easily modified....so the very next day on astronomy picture of the day this came up...
    gotta love living in the twilight zone...
     
  10. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Wow! Didn't see that one coming.

    But maybe they were looking at the wrong species:

     
  11. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Tao!
    Thanks for thinking of me, but we already travelled this road a while back. The info presented is just a little dated.

    There have been more recent studies that show that there aren't any residual indications of genetic imprints from other homonid species. Yes, there are finds that indicate modern humans interbred with Neandertal and possibly even H. Erectus, those are flukes. That is, they did not make it into the modern genepool. Bottleneck with founder effect, and all that jazz. Mitochondrial Eve, and Paternal Adam. With no genes outside of that *apparently* making it through to this day.

    At least, that is how I understand the material from the past year or so.

    Who knows? Next week it may change. Vajra just left a link a few days ago to a set of National Geographic sites dealing with the human genome and how we are all related, the material corresponds well with a hard copy National Geographic I have from June of last year. Spencer Wells I believe is the researcher's name. Good stuff.
     
  13. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Ok cool, I did not look at the date when I found the link, sorry. I remember and enjoyed the debate last year on the interbreeding question. And it was left in my recollection too as you state, that the evidence did not support interbreeding based on mitochondrial reasearch. However I do not recal seeing anything based on the male chromosone techniques. Anyhow i'm sure that tho they may not have been able to offspring viable young it was not for want of trying. Plenty of evidence to show they shared space after all.
    I did see vajras post. Not had time to get to it yet tho. Still busy chasing down viking long boats in Khazakstan :p
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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  15. ardenz

    ardenz New Member

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    Very interesting thread....mmmm I know of a few Neandertal cross breeds.. they've just got re elected to government in this little banana republic I live in.

    must read these links above,

    thanks
     
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Hmm that would suggest (which the author (s) fall short of, suggesting that the DNA of the two or more species would have been less than .002 percent of nominal, and not the 2.3 to 5% difference between great apes today.

    Well think about it. A Pole cat today is as close to a weasel and a ferret, as any man to any great ape...yet they still can't interbreed...

    Why? DNA is off by .02% Get it? DNA is not a gross diagragm of what a being should be. "Oh, just bump ape .02% and you get man"...If that were so, then a lot of apes would suddenly become sapien sapiens...but it ain't happening. Must be because the DNA structure is so refined and precise that anything other than intended is a mutation, and subsequently most mutations are detrimental to the longevity of a life form...

    But then, what do I know? I only prep to defend against such radiation causing mutations...

    I don't know much to do about nothing...(lol) :p

    v/r

    Q
     
  17. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    A recent find while exploring:

    Upper Paleolithic people were Homo sapiens sapiens like us and therefore had a nervous system identical to ours. Consequently, some of them must have known altered states of consciousness in their various forms including hallucinations. This was part of a reality which they had to manage in their own way and according to their own concepts.

    This being said, we know as a fact that they kept going into the deep caves for twenty thousand years at the very least in order to draw on the walls, not to live or take shelter there. Everywhere and at all times, the underground has been perceived as being a supernatural world, the realm of the spirits or of the dead, a forbidding gate to the Beyond which people are frightened of and never cross. Going into the subterranean world was thus defying ancestral fears, deliberately venturing into the kingdom of the supernatural powers in order to meet them. The analogy with shamanic mind travels is obvious, but their underground adventure went much beyond a metaphoric equivalent of the shaman’s voyage : it made it real in a milieu where one could physically move and inwhich spirits were literally at hand. When Upper Paleolithic people went into the deeper galleries, they must have been acutely aware that they were in the world of the supernatural powers and they expected to see and find them. Such a state of mind, no doubt reinforced by the teaching they had received, was certain to facilitate the coming of visions that deep caves in any case tend to stir up (as many spelunkers have testified). Deep caves could thus have a double role the aspects of which were indissolubly linked : to make hallucinations easier; to get in touch with the spirits through the walls.

    Paleolithic Cave Paintings and Rock Art in France

    Animals are often drawn without any care for scale, in profile. They can be whole or just represented by their heads or forequarters, which is enough to identify them. Their images are often precise, personalised and identifiable in all their details (sexes, ages, attitudes), whether they be Magdalenian bison in the Ariege or Aurignacian lions and rhinos in the Chauvet Cave, 18,000 years earlier. Scenes are rare and certain themes are absent, like herds and mating scenes. Paintings and engravings are thus neither faithful copies of the surrounding environment nor stereotypes.

    As to humans, whatever the culture and diverse as they may be, they always seem to be uncouth and unsophisticated, mere caricatures. This is also a constant feature that stresses the unity of Paleolithic art.
    The artistic abilities of the painters and engravers cannot be questioned. They deliberately chose to represent vague humans, with few details or deformed features.

    A particular theme is that of composite creatures, at times called sorcerers. Those beings evidence both human and animal characteristics. This theme is all the more interesting as it departs from normality. It is present as early as the Aurignacian in Chauvet. It can be found in Gabillou (fig. 7) and Lascaux 10,000 years later or more and it is still present in the Middle Magdalenian of Les Trois-Freres, nearly 20,000 years after its beginnings.

    Paleolithic Cave Paintings and Rock Art in France

    Wall images are perfectly compatible with the perceptions people could have during their visions, whether one considers their themes, their techniques and their details. The animals, individualised by means of precise details, seem to float on the walls ; they are disconnected from reality, without any ground line, often without respect of the laws of gravity, in the absence of any framework or surroundings. Elementary geometric signs are always present and recall those seen in the various stages of trance. As to composite creatures and monsters (i.e. animals with corporal attributes pertaining to various species), we know that they belong to the world of shamanic visions. This does not mean that they would have made their paintings and engravings under a state of trance. The visions could be drawn (much) later.

    Trying to get into touch with the spirits believed to live inside the caves, on the other side of theveil that the walls constituted between their reality and ours, is a Paleolithic attitude of mind which has left numerous testimonies, particularly the very frequent use of natural reliefs. When one’s mind is full of animal images, a hollow in the rock underlined by a shadow cast by one’s torch or grease lamp will evoke a horse’s back line or the hump of a bison. How then couldn’t one believe that the spirit-animals found in the visions of trance - and that one had expected to find in the other-world which the underground undoubtedly is - are not there on the wall, half emerging through the rock thanks to the magic of the moving light and ready to vanish into it again. In a few lines, they would be made wholly real and their power would then become accessible.

    Cracks and hollows, as well as the ends oropenings of galleries, must have played a slightly different yet comparable part. They were not the animals themselves but the places whence they came. Those natural features provided a sort of opening into the depths of the rock where the spirits were believed to dwell. This would explain why we find so many examples of animals drawn in function of those natural features (Le Roseau Clastres, Le Travers de Janoye, Chauvet (fig. 14), Le Grand Plafond at Rouffignac).

    Paleolithic Cave Paintings and Rock Art in France
     
  18. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Hi Juan... This material is something that I ran across quite some time ago and has figured prominently in my understandings of ancient people in Europe. But it still seems to me, though not as popular as the cave art of France, to be more of a diverse and cogent explanation for how certain of our religious traditions and beliefs got going.

    Except for one thing. The power and majesty of creation seems to be inferred to be within the purview of females. And in fact Jean Auel used much of this material to fashion her tales of life among families in primeval Europe. The prominence of the "potter's hut" is especially meaningful to me due to the prominent mention of the "potter's" activities in sacred writings which formed the basis of Judeo-Christian belief. And notice that these people practiced three dimensional artistic abilities from the beginning.

    Take your time to read through it all and take a close look at the illustrations and diagrams. I believe that you'll see my point to it all, even though it may not be the "correct" one.

    flow....;)

    http://donsmaps.com/dolni.html
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Flow. Did you bother to read my post above Juan's?
     
  20. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Yes Q, I read it and knew about your version of mutation and evolution.

    DNA and RNA has also been "engineered and manipulated" the past thirty years to manipulate life forms into behaving and evolving in certain ways. I tend to believe that only G-d should have those sorts of privileges, but then we are seeing before our eyes that many of our scientists and those who direct their activities are already "playing G-d". What do you really think is going on at places like the Howard Hughes Medical, and the Beckman institutes around North America, not to mention our research Universities. We're way past the point of saying all change is a result of mutations caused by radiation and synthetic substance interventions, although some assuredly are.

    Your version may be "right" and then again it may not be. It is certainly partiallty "right" or the Governmant wouldn't be having you do the work you do. Me, I tend to believe in other versions based upon my experience and reading.

    Vive' la difference !

    flow....;)
     

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