Corrections. The word 'zulu" means heaven and not God. But in essence the ancient Zulus claimed to be people of God. I said angry, but I really meant ashamed... for not only is the debate of Jesus' divinity alienating us from other cultures but it is detracting us as a super-power from doing all the christian work that needs to be done.
Jesus-Neither Literal Son of God nor God
- Thread starter inhumility
- Start date
MagnetMan said:
i do not think Wil is closed minded. that is not what i was trying to say. i also do not think the scripture or interpretation of scripture is an artificial invention. there is instruction in the Word on how to study it.
Bandit said:
Man is a "machine" (after a fashion), very complex and intricate, and old, hence in need of a manual that was originally created for the original model. Scripture is that manual. In short, it is an "how to" manual for causing man to perform at peak efficiency. And there is nothing in the original manuals that will cause man to fail prematurely. However, recent updates are more or less designed to burn the "machine" out much quicker than originally designed.
Think about it...these authors of scripture did not come off the cuff with this information on what makes man run at his best. They acquired this information from the school of hard knocks. And they took the time to pass that knowledge on to us (no small feat by any means)...
v/r
Q
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Thomas said:
Even if we don't grasp the concept or even accept that Jesus was the Son of God, or at least not uniquely the Son of God, The fact is that the relationship between Jesus and the Father far exceeded anything that the first century Jews were used to. He taught beyond the boundaries of the written law and restored the spiritual significance of the law, exemplified in the two greatest commandments. Beyond that, He showed compassion through His miracles and healings. And ultimately demonstrated love supreme by laying down His life for his friends, which extends to us, should we accept it.
Even if we ignore the claim of Jesus being the only begotten Son, His Resurrection validated His relationship with the Father and paved a way which we may follow, thereby granting us the right to be sons and daughters of God ourselves.
In the final analysis, I don't think it is vitally important to try and figure out the nature of Christ, but rather what He did for us is important as evident in John 14:11:
"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."
Dondi said:
The biggest difference between Jesus and all other men of vision and/or enlightenment is this, all agree they "were". Christians state Jesus is...
I know it is a small thing, but it is also significant in the perception of the Son of God, by those that profess to follow His ways, or more precisely, Him.
v/r
Q
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I don't know, but it seems to me that to say that Jesus was not God and not the Son of God you'd need to pretty much discard the entire Gospel of John.
peace,
lunamoth
peace,
lunamoth
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Q and luna,
I agree with what you are saying, but there are those even in certain Christian circles that deny the diety of Christ. My point is that what's important is that however you view Jesus, there can be no denial that the Spirit of God was in Him, and that it is that same Spirit that works in us to affect God's will. My feeling is that God works through all the confusion about trying to figure out the divine nature of Jesus (i.e. trinity, oneness, noneness, whatever). We just need to understand the relationship between the Father and Jesus and recognize that that same relationship is available to us.
I agree with what you are saying, but there are those even in certain Christian circles that deny the diety of Christ. My point is that what's important is that however you view Jesus, there can be no denial that the Spirit of God was in Him, and that it is that same Spirit that works in us to affect God's will. My feeling is that God works through all the confusion about trying to figure out the divine nature of Jesus (i.e. trinity, oneness, noneness, whatever). We just need to understand the relationship between the Father and Jesus and recognize that that same relationship is available to us.
me thinks inhumility spawned an awesome discussion amongst christians...has anyone read the jeffersonian gospels? It is not a requirement to toss out the entire anything... could be that some were inclined to hyperbole....it sure happens today.
Bandit said:
Ah! There we have it! I miss-interpreted what you meant to say - and in turn you misinterpreted my answer to it. Such is the danger I am trying to reveal.
I meant script or cypher itself is artficial. It is laborious invention that, as a means of mass communication is far from exact. This does not denigrate from it's evolutionary necessity. I was just pointing out its limitations
Quahom1 said:
All perfectly true - and I have thought about it - for thirty years and more. I have made innumerable documentary televisions programs about it. I have even published a book about it. I took the trouble to investigate the school of hard knocks by making an arduous and dangerous safari into the Central Kalahari Bushman Reserve, in order to un-cover the very origin of mankind's spiritual Belief systems. I journied throughout Africa studying still-existing Bronze Age spirituallity - another foundation stone of Scripture. I stand by everything I mean - not what you might interpret I mean via this artficial means of communication that we are applying at this moment. I am trying me best to reveal what I have learned through all this. I seem to have succeeded rather well with television, (a picture speaks more than a thousand words) but am battling mightily with the pen. If I have offended anyone, please forgive, for that can never be my intent. I honor and revere the ancient scriptures, for I know their source, and I empathize with the same poor struggles our earlier ancestors had in passing on essential wisdoms about our history and ethical conduct, via the written word. Testaments to the truth which all of us need to read and reread and try to understand. But the understanding must go beyond the mind. It must be made loving by the heart, and then digested in the gut of personal investigation - before we stand on a pulipit and spew it out as gospel to others. I fear that much of what I read from biblical scholars these days, is merely the regurgitation of predigested information, with no callous on the knee to authenticate their convictions - or the ability to provide original insights that can be added to our Scriptural lore for future generations.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
MagnetMan said:
Well, how else are we to communicate? I haven't developed powers of telepathy....at least not yet.
Dondi said:
Are we ganging up on you Dondi? (lol) Agreed on all points but one. The Father has no issue with the Son. Man does. And it is clear that the relationship between God the Father and Man will never be the same as it orginally was supposed to be. Hence forward we will be mediated through the Son (which actually is not a bad deal to have a big BROTHER) acting on our behalf.
Or maybe I have father issues...
v/r
Q
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Quahom1 said:
Naw, I don't feel like you all are ganging up on me. My concern is that I didn't make myself clear, which is easy to do.
You position, I assume, on the point you disagree, is that since God is just and holy, and man is not, there requires a mediator in order alleviate the conflict between God and Man.
But now you bring up an interesting point. In heaven, seeing as we are creatures of free will, will we still have the choice to sin? Does the Blood of Christ continually cleanse us? Or if we don't sin, what mechanism keeps us from doing so?
I am side with Dondi on this point. If we keep leaning on Christ as crutch we will never stand independantly tall before Our Creator. The challenge is to be like our big brother ..up to point. Christ was a bachelor without the responsibilities of husband and parent. As the father of eight kids, I have a further rows to hoe.Quahom1 said:
Dondi
Well-Known Member
MagnetMan said:
Actually, I'm not taking sides. Currently, my view of Christ is that He is the Savior, but that His salvation is available to those who are truly seeking God, whether they are Christian or not. In other words, the sacrifice He made is effectual at an individual basis whereby he/she is fullfilling the Law of Love as put forth in the two greatest commandments and the Golden Rule. From a Christian perspective, I, for one, just can not see God condemning someone just because they happened to have chosen the wrong means to seek Him. I believe God operates in the heart of the individual, and judgement is based on the thoughts and intents of the heart (see Romans 1).
Dondi said:
Each of us see Jesus in our own way. I love and revere him for being a man. It is his teachinging that I find Divine. Love your neighbor and turn the other cheek is the most far-reaching social philosophy ever quoted. The emphasis on his Divinity, I fear, has caused more harm than good. It certainly alienates us from all other cultures. All cultures have their own saviors. Many are also believed to be Mangods. It goes back into mythology. All that originally stems from Bronze Age totemism, each clan claiming exclusive Divine origin.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I decided long ago, from my own experience, study, prayer, meditation, and reconciliation with God (an ongoing, awesome process!) ... that at least for me, it would be a grave error - to confound the man, for His Message.
And that remains my take on Jesus, on Christianity, and on the proper role and usefulness of all Holy Scriptures, Bible included ... in our lives. As the Buddhists would say, it's fine to use the Buddha as the raft, along with the Dharma, and the Sangha. But when you get to the other side, please put Him down!
So to me, quibbling over the many things that Thomas pointed out in his long post, would indeed - be missing the point. And - so long as my focus is on self, I too, will be missing the point. Of this, I am certain. Seems like Jesus kinda said that (lived it, showed it, taught it, proved it) ... no?
andrew
And that remains my take on Jesus, on Christianity, and on the proper role and usefulness of all Holy Scriptures, Bible included ... in our lives. As the Buddhists would say, it's fine to use the Buddha as the raft, along with the Dharma, and the Sangha. But when you get to the other side, please put Him down!
So to me, quibbling over the many things that Thomas pointed out in his long post, would indeed - be missing the point. And - so long as my focus is on self, I too, will be missing the point. Of this, I am certain. Seems like Jesus kinda said that (lived it, showed it, taught it, proved it) ... no?
andrew
