Jesus Never Was a Mystery- Jesus Himself Explains – Sigh of Jonah

[Bandit]

lukewarm is like there was a relationship started & then it stopped. you go from cold & start to get hot, but stop at warm. OR you start out real hot & then the love fades away & you go back to a lukewarm 'whatever'.

some people grow apart, but they still love each other, it is just not the same HOT kind of love that once was there. you go your way, i go mine.
people fall in & out of love all the time & when they fall out of love, the realtionship changes too & people take two different paths as they grow apart...called seperation & divorce.

the church of Ephesus was told they had left their first love, but they did not love another as the Nicolaitions.

these letters were warning signs.

 

[Quahom1]

lukewarm is like there was a relationship started & then it stopped. you go from cold & start to get hot, but stop at warm. OR you start out real hot & then the love fades away & you go back to a lukewarm 'whatever'.

some people grow apart, but they still love each other, it is just not the same HOT kind of love that once was there. you go your way, i go mine.
people fall in & out of love all the time & when they fall out of love, the realtionship changes too & people take two different paths as they grow apart...called seperation & divorce.

the church of Ephesus was told they had left their first love, but they did not love another as the Nicolaitions.

these letters were warning signs.

Right, Luna and Bandit, one cannot simply go with which ever way the wind blows. A western "dust devil" comes to mind. A "leaf" caught in the whirl of a dust devil can do nothing but go with the wind. A fence post buried deep in the ground (but surrounded by the dust devil) still hold's its position, hence the fence stays intact, hence the animals stay penned within the fence, hence the farmer does not lose his livestock. And when the whirlwind finally subsides, the "leaf" falls to the ground and rots, or is trampled by the livestock.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

Here's another perspective on lukewarm: During WWII, the Allies were fighting the Axis powers well before the United States became involved in the war. We knew good and well what an evil force the Nazis were. We were well aware of their plans, their methods, and the dangers present. But not until the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the day living in infamy ... did the US go to war.

We were clearly lukewarm, as an entire nation, and should not have been, imo. It nearly cost us (as in, us, the world) the war. And inasmuch as that would have fairly well meant the victory of darkness over light, I do think this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Fortunately, the US threw her entire strength on the side of the Allies, and Germany was defeated. Yes, the world situation has changed somewhat, but WWII was certainly not the first instance in history where lukewarm occurred on a large scale.

Thank God we finally got off the fence.

Also, from a more personal point of view, I don't think God damns anyone. And I think we anthropomorphize a good bit when we picture "him" spitting anything out. Yes, I know the Biblical scripture, the passage being referenced. And I think that the fence-sitters ... have simply taken "the long way home" (as SuperTramp might put it). Or, as Jethro Tull sings:

So as you push off from the shore,
won't you turn your head once more
and make your peace with everyone?
For those who choose to stay,
will live just one more day
to do the things they should have done.
​

This lyric from Skating Away on the Thin Ice of the New Day, also seems relevant. There is such a wealth of Wisdom ... in music.

Namaskar to all,

andrew

 

[Quahom1]

Here's another perspective on lukewarm: During WWII, the Allies were fighting the Axis powers well before the United States became involved in the war. We knew good and well what an evil force the Nazis were. We were well aware of their plans, their methods, and the dangers present. But not until the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the day living in infamy ... did the US go to war.

We were clearly lukewarm, as an entire nation, and should not have been, imo. It nearly cost us (as in, us, the world) the war. And inasmuch as that would have fairly well meant the victory of darkness over light, I do think this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Fortunately, the US threw her entire strength on the side of the Allies, and Germany was defeated. Yes, the world situation has changed somewhat, but WWII was certainly not the first instance in history where lukewarm occurred on a large scale.

Thank God we finally got off the fence.


Also, from a more personal point of view, I don't think God damns anyone. And I think we anthropomorphize a good bit when we picture "him" spitting anything out. Yes, I know the Biblical scripture, the passage being referenced. And I think that the fence-sitters ... have simply taken "the long way home" (as SuperTramp might put it). Or, as Jethro Tull sings:

So as you push off from the shore,
won't you turn your head once more
and make your peace with everyone?
For those who choose to stay,
will live just one more day
to do the things they should have done.

​

This lyric from Skating Away on the Thin Ice of the New Day, also seems relevant. There is such a wealth of Wisdom ... in music.

Namaskar to all,

andrew

Prior to the "official" entry of the US into WW II, American pilots entered the Canadian and RAF squadrans. Some of the best Canadian and British fighter pilots were "Americans"...imagine that. Prior to the "official" entry of the US into WW II the United States was shipping raw material and finished goods to Great Britian, enmasse. US warships were already escorting convoys between North America and Great Britian. (USCGC Campbell WPB-32) comes immediately to mind. One of the crucial reasons that England did not fall immediately to German onslaughts was because the Canadians and "AMERICANS" were shipping material as fast as possible. We just didn't send troops at any large number (primarily because we weren't asked).

One should know history before quoting it...

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

One should know history before quoting it...

I think I know history well enough in this case, Q. What you say does not change the fact that officially we were not involved, and "because we were not asked" sounds like a copout. I did not do anything to serve God ... because I was not asked. ???

In no way am I passing judgement on America, or Americans, by citing our national status as lukewarm during the early years of the war. As you have illustrated, some individuals (groups, units, etc.) were doing something. But the apathy that existed as the prevailing sentiment, then as now, bears witness for itself.

I think the real point - is that once we were involved, as a nation, the Axis powers had a force to reckon with. Perhaps, had Italy and Japan not taken up sides with Germany, things might have played out differently. But as it was, we had a hard fight ahead of us, and America did not save the day without great effort, and great cost in both blood and materials.

The life of the nation is reflected in the lives of its people, in more ways than one ... and vice versa. No mystery there, I guess.

andrew

 

[inhumility]

Hi
The fact that Jesus didn't die on the cross, doesn't lessen the importance of what Jesus taught one iota.
Some may think that Jesus removed from “Son of God / God”, would have no role to play and no attraction left for the believers? I would like to reflect on this aspect and would say this is not correct.
If Adam, Krishna, Abraham, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, David, Solomon, Socrates, Muhammad etc. , all humans , perfect men in their own merit, they attracted and won hearts of much of the world without claiming divinity, godhead, or association with God for themselves; and only through their character, morality, politeness, wisdom , they successfully did it. All these respected and most loved religious leaders of the world were brothers in belief in one God.
Why cannot then Jesus do so - whom the Christians consider “Perfect Man”. Has he lost the charisma?
Do they find any discrepancy in his being a prefect man that they need yet to add another feather to him and make him son of God or God?
Surely there is no such need. In fact they have over burdened Jesus and under the weight of this mythical additional burden his own human personality has been concealed from the eye of the people. Remove these burdens and myths woven around him so that his pristine personality glows and enlightens the whole world with his brilliant light. Let his true personality and message of peace reach the corners of the world so profoundly needed by the humanity? There is no mystery, nothing to hide.
Let the superstitions and myths die so that Jesus lives in the hearts of the people.
Mirza Tahir Ahmad has reflected on Jesus’ role, attraction and gravitational pull as under:-
For almost two thousand years, it is not the legends woven around the reality of Jesus Christ that has kept Christianity together and has helped it to survive the challenges of reason and ever growing enlightenment borne out of scientific progress, nor is its survival due to the mystic belief of Trinity. What has held the truth and essence of Christianity together is the beauty of the person and the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the divine conduct and not the divine person of Jesus that has been so beautiful to adhere to. It was the suffering, patience and perseverance for the sake of noble ideals and his bold upright rejection of all despotic attempts to make him change his principles that is the real backbone of Christianity. It is still as beautiful and as loveable today as it was ever before. It has influenced so powerfully the Christian minds and hearts that they remain bonded to Jesus and would much rather shut their eyes to logical discrepancies than to break away from him.
His real greatness lies in the fact that he transcended and conquered the forces of darkness that had conspired to vanquish him despite being a frail human being and no more than a human being. That victory of Jesus is something to be shared with pride by the children of Adam. As we see it from the Muslim vantage point, he is one of the most noble progeny of Adam who taught humanity by his example of perseverance in the face of extreme suffering and pain. Not to surrender but to remain steadfast in the teeth of extreme trial was the noblest achievement of Jesus. It was his life of suffering and pain that redeemed humanity and made him conquer death. If he had accepted death voluntarily, it would have been tantamount to an attempt to escape his state of suffering. How can one conceive this to be an act of bravery. Even the act of those who commit suicide, under extreme pressure, is taken to be a mere act of cowardice. To share suffering in life is far better than to escape suffering through death. Hence the concept of the supreme sacrifice of Jesus by accepting death for the sake of humanity is hollow sentimality with no substance in it.
The greatness of Jesus, we again insist, lay in his supreme sacrifice during his lifetime. All his life, he defied the temptations to give in and exchange a life of suffering with that of ease and comfort. Day in, day out he confronted death but refused to give in and lived for the sake of the sinful to bring them to life. He conquered death not by surrendering himself to death, but by refusing to bow down to it. He defeated it roundly and emerged from its clutches where a lesser man would have perished. Thus he proved his truth and the truth of his word beyond a shadow of doubt. That is how we see Jesus and that is why we love him so. His voice was the voice of God and not the voice of his own ambitions. He said what he was commissioned to say, neither more nor less than what God had told him to say. He worshipped God throughout his life and worshipped Him alone and never did he require any mortal to bow before himself or before his mother or the Holy Ghost. This is the reality of Jesus to which we invite the Christians of all denomination and faiths to return.

 

[Bandit]

Hi
The fact that Jesus didn't die on the cross, doesn't lessen the importance of what Jesus taught one iota.

i see you are back. i believe the fact is JESUS DID DIE ON THE CROSS & IF you believe his teachings like you claim, then you would know that he taught on his own death, burial & resurrection & what it is for.

 

[Dor]

Dor, weren't these the words of John? Even if from Jesus, this verse is open for interpretation. If one is luke warm in their spiritual progress or their attitude towards God they will not receive the fullness. John says that God prefers that we would be cold or hot. Why would God want us cold rather than luke warm?? I think John was extra expressive in revelations because he was feeling the full brunt of the Roman army. He saw his faith and beliefs being threatened. You can imagine the duress under which he wrote this book.

Sure John wrote them down when Jesus said them to him...
Jesus didnt actully write any of the bible but what was told to him was written down...if you choose not to believe he said something oh welll.

And yes every scripture is open to interpetation and people are getting alot better at twisting alot of scriptures to fit their everybody must feel good and be able to do as they please religions...
as to the way I take that one either you are cold(you dont really believe in him or sorta do but havent accepted him) your hot(means you believe in him, accept him, love him, put him above all) or lukewarm( sorta ya you believe and have accepted him but you too worried about what people say to mention him or actually get other people to see him) and yeah I agree with some others cold is ok cause they dont know him, hot is ok cause he wants em all that way, lujewarm is just kinda sickening.

 

[Dor]

Hi
The fact that Jesus didn't die on the cross, doesn't lessen the importance of what Jesus taught one iota.

Actually it would change alot of what he taught not everything....but if you take the death, the shedding of the blood and the ressurrection and think it changes nothing you need to go do a tad more reading Id say.

If Adam, Krishna, Abraham, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, David, Solomon, Socrates, Muhammad etc. ,

Just one problem there they are all good men none of them were perfect and none were Jesus.

Now if you want to dumb down the religions and make em fit for you just at least make up new names for it and be honest dont call it christianity after taking the divinity, birth, death amd ressurrection out of it come up with a new name like Such and Such's Load of Hogwash or whoever comes up with it that day.

 

[Quahom1]

I think I know history well enough in this case, Q. What you say does not change the fact that officially we were not involved, and "because we were not asked" sounds like a copout. I did not do anything to serve God ... because I was not asked. ???

In no way am I passing judgement on America, or Americans, by citing our national status as lukewarm during the early years of the war. As you have illustrated, some individuals (groups, units, etc.) were doing something. But the apathy that existed as the prevailing sentiment, then as now, bears witness for itself.

I think the real point - is that once we were involved, as a nation, the Axis powers had a force to reckon with. Perhaps, had Italy and Japan not taken up sides with Germany, things might have played out differently. But as it was, we had a hard fight ahead of us, and America did not save the day without great effort, and great cost in both blood and materials.

The life of the nation is reflected in the lives of its people, in more ways than one ... and vice versa. No mystery there, I guess.

andrew

Then of course you would also know that it was the socialist who were campaigning hard to keep America out of the war. These were the elite, the rich, the famous ring knockers. They were angry that the president would even consider getting physically involved in the war, since it wasn't our problem, while the president wanted any excuse to get us into the war, since it would become our problem eventually. Even after Pearl harbor, 30% of Congress still wanted to stay out of war...

And "officially" we were involved Taij...up to our eyeballs, we just didn't declare it to the world. Our factories had already retooled from cars to tanks and planes, our ship yards had orders for new warships (lots of them). Our government officially committed to supplying the allies with supplies.

The difference between then and now is knowledge and attitude. The masses were ignorant of what was happening over the pond, but once they found out (and it touched home), everybody rolled up their sleeves.

Today, we have knowledge, but our attitude stinks. It seems as if a significant part of the masses could care less, as long as it doesn't come in their back yard, or mess with their latte and lunch.

History repeating itself...

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

Thank you for your most recent post, inhumility. I think it is beautiful, and resounds to me powerfully with the spirit of Truth, and of Christianity the way the Master Himself gave it life. There are many who will not concur, or will not feel the message you share, even as in the times 2100 years ago, many would not receive the message then. Many heard, but did not understand, and Jesus made this clear in the Parable of the Sower.

Thank you for emphasizing that "What has held the truth and essence of Christianity together is the beauty of the person and the teachings of Jesus Christ." This gives us something to ponder ... a brick or a stone, worthy of inclusion in the Temple. We are building it, and I honor your constructive efforts ...

The entire poem If, by Rudyard Kipling, seems appropriate here, but at least the following lines are relevant:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools
​

During Christ's own lifetime, the world around him conspired to thwart his mission. To this day, I feel a bitter irony, and a sadness ... that there is so much rancor, and dissent. Have we become more civil, if for steel we use words, and instead of blood we draw grief? Is it really so satisfying a feeling to have one's say, and simply rest content that we have one-upped our brethren? Or are they even brethren? How far out of our way would we go ... to lend them a hand? To smile, or give them the time of day? Why is it always, us and them, anyway?

Christ was fond of saying we, and of saying things like Blessed are the ---. That is how his example rests with me.

Just one problem there they are all good men none of them were perfect and none were Jesus.

You're half right. Perhaps you'd be interested in meeting, or hearing about other perfect men and women? Hmmm. Didn't think so. Mind's already made up. Agreed: As far as you know, there are none. Was Jesus "perfect?" Let's talk about that. By the same standard, so were hundreds of other individuals throughout history, although we are familiar with only a handful. But the discussion is pointless. Isn't it?

Hmmm ... life and teachings, example - of Jesus Christ. Life and teachings, example - of Jesus Christ. Life and teachings, example - of Jesus Christ.

Life and teachings, example - of Jesus Christ.

Life and teachings, example - of Jesus Christ.

Life and teachings, example - of Jesus Christ.



... and earwax. I should just write poetry. bah

Since this is the comparative forum, I think it might be useful to look at the standards and ideals of perfection, as embodied in various religions, by the Saviors and Avatars throughout history. Or to keep a bit more on topic, to show the qualities which these other Divine Emissaries displayed, which parallel those found in Christ Jesus. Such as tolerance and deepest of understanding, openness to input from others, a patience with all those whom he encountered, the unconditional love which embraces - and does not judge.

Most certainly also, I would think Jesus had acquired, or developed, the utmost skill and grace in helping to facilitate those with whom he spoke, who were not of like mind or background ... to see each other's point of view, and get past differences. Hmmm. Yes, a moderator. A mediator. The perfect diplomat. And someone, Whom, if He was to observe his fledgling disciples in their efforts to share the same Gosple that He Himself had shared ... surely, Christ Jesus would not have stood by and allowed the crowd to pick his sheep apart! Or would he? Perhaps he knew that the calumnly suffered by even his dearest - would but wound pride. And pride - is not something he taught his disciples to indulge in. They were not perfect, but they strove arduously ... to bring His words and Message to the world. And sometimes, but only sometimes ... they were warmly welcomed, and well received.

Peace,

andrew

 

[taijasi]

I had this funny feeling when you first started posting here that you had some negative feelings towards Christians and that it would just be a matter of time before those feelings came out. I was right...

Perhaps the "funny feeling" comes from the awareness - that my approach is not the devotional approach, that I am not active in any Christian communities or congregations, and that in many ways I belong to one of the other folds of which the Great Teacher spoke. My intentions however, are not to divide, nor to provoke, as such. I have no reluctance to "stir the proverbial waters" ... but I have already learned much about tact, and sensitivity, even in just the past week. One might think such things are innate, or obvious - and perhaps they are. But I am far from perfect, and would never be able to stop if I started to name my vices, weaknesses and shortcomings.

I do try to focus on the positive, and that's why, on the Comparative forums - and on Esoteric - which I've discovered is the best place for it, I have no qualms about posting different interpretations of any scripture, or Holy writing, that I have found to bear wisdom and be of practical use for us in our spiritual journey. No one (with a charitable heart, and who remembers it) will bash Christians on those forums, or any other. Any of us, however, is capable of becoming passionate about our beliefs, our convictions, our religous/spiritual faith and experiences, or anything else that is dear to us along these lines. One can even become provoked about the price of a cup of coffee, but I guess we can generally fork over the five bucks and be done with it.

Inasmuch as I most definitely stepped over the line, both on this forum, and on a couple of others (which I will seek out) ... I would like to apologize, to you and to others. I am sorry to have pushed the envelope a couple of tokes over the line, and I hope there are no hard feelings, or a grudge. There is/are certainly none on my part, and since I was initially drawn to CR by the Diversity of spiritual paths represented, and discussed here - and not to vent negative feelings towards, regarding, or in any way associated with either Christianity, or any other faith/religion/tradition ... I hope it won't be surprising if I get on with it. Life's too short - to get sidetracked.

There is the potential for so much love in this world to spend so much energy on hate.

That says it all!

Peace,

andrew

 

[taijasi]

The difference between then and now is knowledge and attitude. The masses were ignorant of what was happening over the pond, but once they found out (and it touched home), everybody rolled up their sleeves.

Today, we have knowledge, but our attitude stinks. It seems as if a significant part of the masses could care less, as long as it doesn't come in their back yard, or mess with their latte and lunch.

Agreed, that apathy - the lukewarmness - is the difficulty. As one author put it: the inertia of the average spiritual-minded man. We can't really be surprised about those who make no bones about worshipping mammon. I'm not meaning to judge, nor to see that situation in any other light than it is. I think their time will come, but for now, the widescreen TV and the new Hummer is what matters most. At least there is often the concern with family, which is still a form of reaching out to others.

Now the question - is how do we get folks to see that no matter the country, the religion, the social environment, government or culture of another group of people - they are still our brethren! I think the responsibility falls largely on those who do sense and feel drawn to the world of spiritual values, of whatever religion (or none). And many such people are active, some living lives of utmost sacrifice. Yet many, do not. No judgement intended, nor criticism; just observation. How do we get past the "so long as it's not in my back yard, who cares?" attitude?

I think the question could also be asked like this: How do we make the kind of lifestyle Jesus lived 2000 years ago, in a different culture than ours, under a completely different set of cultural and societal circumstances ... look desirable? What is it about his Message that we can focus on, and further develop, or continue to work on, as part of the practical solution - to the challenge in front of us. A challenge which faces, not just the United States, nor just the so-called "developed nations," but one which people of every nation still face ...on a daily basis.

That may just be the Zen koan that should be on all our minds these days. One word comes to me again & again, yet the untyped word can open doors - where a few more keystrokes, might close it.

Love & Light,

andrew

andrew

 

[Dor]

You're half right. Perhaps you'd be interested in meeting, or hearing about other perfect men and women?

Sure I am lets hear about 5 of them and please include what you definition of perfect is for the sake of the arguement...Im wondering if thats the sticking point.

 

[Quahom1]

Agreed, that apathy - the lukewarmness - is the difficulty. As one author put it: the inertia of the average spiritual-minded man. We can't really be surprised about those who make no bones about worshipping mammon. I'm not meaning to judge, nor to see that situation in any other light than it is. I think their time will come, but for now, the widescreen TV and the new Hummer is what matters most. At least there is often the concern with family, which is still a form of reaching out to others.

Now the question - is how do we get folks to see that no matter the country, the religion, the social environment, government or culture of another group of people - they are still our brethren! I think the responsibility falls largely on those who do sense and feel drawn to the world of spiritual values, of whatever religion (or none). And many such people are active, some living lives of utmost sacrifice. Yet many, do not. No judgement intended, nor criticism; just observation. How do we get past the "so long as it's not in my back yard, who cares?" attitude?

I think the question could also be asked like this: How do we make the kind of lifestyle Jesus lived 2000 years ago, in a different culture than ours, under a completely different set of cultural and societal circumstances ... look desirable? What is it about his Message that we can focus on, and further develop, or continue to work on, as part of the practical solution - to the challenge in front of us. A challenge which faces, not just the United States, nor just the so-called "developed nations," but one which people of every nation still face ...on a daily basis.

That may just be the Zen koan that should be on all our minds these days. One word comes to me again & again, yet the untyped word can open doors - where a few more keystrokes, might close it.

Love & Light,

andrew

andrew

One step would be to put every lawyer through Paris Island, then upon graduation, ship them off with an M-16 to the Middle East, for a tour of duty. Next, I'd ration the fuel for the states, and hold recycling drives.

Following that I'd go after the credit industry, the media, and financial institutions, and the merchants and curtail their "monopoly" on brainwashing America into thinking they have to have everything, right now.

I'd reward families that stay together and work things out, and penalize those that throw family away at the first sign of inconvenience. (note: I never bring God or religion into the equation...as that naturally happens on its own during hardship).

Taijasi, I learned something (much to my surprise), too much freedom is not freedom at all, it is anarchy. And any "healthy" freedom that we do hold on to, must be earned and fought for and defended against. It can't be bought, or assumed to be ours...it requires sweat, dedication, and sacrifice (for others to have it, if not ourselves).

that is the mystery of freedom, and the mystery of Jesus' message to us.

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

One step would be to put every lawyer through Paris Island, then upon graduation, ship them off with an M-16 to the Middle East, for a tour of duty. Next, I'd ration the fuel for the states, and hold recycling drives.

Following that I'd go after the credit industry, the media, and financial institutions, and the merchants and curtail their "monopoly" on brainwashing America into thinking they have to have everything, right now.

I'd reward families that stay together and work things out, and penalize those that throw family away at the first sign of inconvenience. (note: I never bring God or religion into the equation...as that naturally happens on its own during hardship).

Taijasi, I learned something (much to my surprise), too much freedom is not freedom at all, it is anarchy. And any "healthy" freedom that we do hold on to, must be earned and fought for and defended against. It can't be bought, or assumed to be ours...it requires sweat, dedication, and sacrifice (for others to have it, if not ourselves).

that is the mystery of freedom, and the mystery of Jesus' message to us.

v/r

Q

I'm with you all the way on this one, Q.

I think of a hero as someone who understands the degree of responsibility that comes with his freedom. -- Bob Dylan
​

andrew

 

[didymus]

Sure John wrote them down when Jesus said them to him...
Jesus didnt actully write any of the bible but what was told to him was written down...if you choose not to believe he said something oh welll.

And yes every scripture is open to interpetation and people are getting alot better at twisting alot of scriptures to fit their everybody must feel good and be able to do as they please religions...
as to the way I take that one either you are cold(you dont really believe in him or sorta do but havent accepted him) your hot(means you believe in him, accept him, love him, put him above all) or lukewarm( sorta ya you believe and have accepted him but you too worried about what people say to mention him or actually get other people to see him) and yeah I agree with some others cold is ok cause they dont know him, hot is ok cause he wants em all that way, lujewarm is just kinda sickening.

Dor, If you think I am twisting scripture then, hey, what can I say? I think you twist it to meet your needs. Yours being to agree with the concept of God and Christ that you were taught. If something is open to interpretation then how can you accuse somebody of twisting it? Twisting it from what into what?

 

[Bandit]

Dor, If you think I am twisting scripture then, hey, what can I say? I think you twist it to meet your needs. Yours being to agree with the concept of God and Christ that you were taught. If something is open to interpretation then how can you accuse somebody of twisting it? Twisting it from what into what?

no didymus. it is about Jesus saying dont be lukewarm or you get puked out, but you tell people it is ok to be lukewarm with a (???) as if Jesus is not allowed to have his way in his relationships, as if you dont get puked out if you are lukewarm. you are referencing progress with lukewarm & that is not what these passages are about. these letters are to people who had already come into the knowledge of the truth & the love of Christ & Jesus was noting problems & a falling away in the relationship and/or they STOPPED in the middle- that is the luekwarm part, as i see it..

from your past (first) statement-
1)is it ok for people to be lukewarm & not get puked out? that was your interpretation as i got it from you, but not from Jesus.

God & Christ in this-that has nothing to do with this. stay with the scripture at hand.
i cannot even understand your logic or wanting to argue any of this.
it appears you are going at something different now than the scripture at hand.

Dor, weren't these the words of John? Even if from Jesus, this verse is open for interpretation. If one is luke warm in their spiritual progress or their attitude towards God they will not receive the fullness. John says that God prefers that we would be cold or hot. Why would God want us cold rather than luke warm?? I think John was extra expressive in revelations because he was feeling the full brunt of the Roman army. He saw his faith and beliefs being threatened. You can imagine the duress under which he wrote this book.

he wants you cold or hot....NOT lukewarm. there is no in between on this. it flows with everything Jesus taught...you cannot serve God & mammon. you will love one master & hate the other..you will hear his voice or you will hear another...etc. etc.

 

[didymus]

Bandit, in response to your remark, I don't feel I am getting off the subject. I was responding to Dor's remark about the passage and my interpretation of it. I was told that people are twisting scripture to meet their needs and I responded to that.

 

[taijasi]

Sure I am lets hear about 5 of them and please include what you definition of perfect is for the sake of the arguement...Im wondering if thats the sticking point.

The first five individuals that come to (my) mind, who have attained to the same degree & type of perfection as (Christed) Jesus, are:

1. A Kashmiri Brahmin, sometimes called `K.H.'
2. A Rajput prince, often simply called `M.'
3. The individual known in Biblical history as St. Paul, now `H,' or Hilarion/Illarion (Greek/Cretan)
4. A very famous and well-known figure in both Europe & America, Master R, or Rakoczy/Rackoczi (Hungarian)
5. An Indian (Hindu) Rishi, often called the Rishi of the Nilghiri Hills, aka Master Nylghara

Imo, each of these individuals is equally enigmatic and mysterious, in comparison with Jesus of Nazareth. Or, to state that in the negative, and in keeping with the topic of this thread, the lives of these five Masters can be researched, studied, and found to be just as explainable & natural ... as that of the Master Jesus.

Now my belief is not the typical Christian belief, neither with regard to Jesus of Nazareth, nor with regard to the idea and ideal of perfection which I believe stands before us all, as an open door, inviting us to walk through it. I make no apology for this. I believe what I believe, and I think it is both safe and fair to say - that I have equally as good a reason as you do, for believing what I believe, even though we may differ. The question as to "who's right," is a most elusive one, yet it cannot be satisfactorily answered, imho, so long as we insist on a duality. There are those who might argue in this instance that one or the other of us is correct, and the other wrong. Or it might be said that we are both wrong. Yet I would, and will maintain, that we are both right - to a degree.

Perfection, as I have come to understand it, and with references taken from Christian scripture, is what St. Paul referred to in Ephesians 4:13 as: "the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." This is also the status of "just men made perfect," as referenced in Hebrews 12:23 ... and Christ Himself commanded us to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

Now, these passages are to me, clear, concise, and unambiguous. However, it is up to us whether we accept that this is the standard upon which our entire life is judged. S/he who feels that the current life is the one in which perfection must or should be acquired, is most likely in for disappointment, frustration, and perhaps the feeling of having utterly failed - to meet this ideal. Or, if one has somehow mistaken progress for perfection, and inspiration for enlightenment, then s/he may become deluded into thinking that perfection has been attained. Pride, or ignorance, can veil an accurate self-analysis, and prevent honest introspection and self-assessment. But simply because you & I are not likely destined to become perfect in the current earthly life, does not mean we will not attain to it in a future incarnation. And simply because you do not happen to believe that we are even reincarnated, does not make this so!

But, so long as we do reject reincarnation (on the ground that it is un-Biblical, or that "people do not remember," etc.), and so long as we do not agree that God's Plan for Humanity includes the eventual attainment to perfection ... on the part of every living soul ... then of course it will be easy for us to disagree, to have doubt, or simply to reject any & every argument I might try to give - that perfect men do exist.

And frankly, it would not matter if one of them walked up and shook your hand, now would it? You tell me what the standard is for perfection, and what such an individual would have to look like, act like, etc. in order for you to accept him or her as such. If you have already decided that there are no and can be no such individuals besides Christ Jesus, then why would I waste my time? If, on the other hand, you can at least hypothetically admit that such individuals could exist (and that, perhaps such a standard does reflect our highest ideals of - and God's Plan for - Perfection), then we might be able to get somewhere, because you could give me criteria, and I can tell you if these five men and others, meet them.

Otherwise, it's wasted breath, typing, electrons, etc.

If by perfect you mean truly without sin, then yes, the examples I provided meet that criteria. If `Son of God' is what you mean, then again, I say yes. We are all children of the One Almighty, yet St. Paul, Hebrews, and the Gospel of Matthew all indicate that we must "come into" the state of perfection, as I believe did (Christed) Jesus. This includes economy, or perfect efficieny of living (governing our actions, words, thoughts, etc.), perfect demonstration of the Law of Love (unconditional Love, Agape, or Compassion) in all of our affairs, and the exercise of a Wisdom which evidences as Creative problem-solving in whatever circumstances we find ourself. The slightest sign of `ego' is evidence enough, that perfection by that individual has not quite been obtained.

And just to suggest how very rare such individuals are, I sometimes contemplate the lives of Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., or His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and even as acutely aware of how vastly beyond me these Great Souls are in their spiritual pilgrimage, it is my believe that each of these dear ones has yet to attain to the perfection which is destined for us all. It is not easy, or quick. At best, we may quicken the pace, but if we do this for our own sake, we will short-circuit our own efforts, and won't get very far very fast. Is it an irony, or just common sense, that the less preoccupied we are with our own self, our own interests, our own personal agendas and our own spiritual search ... and the more concerned we are with others, and living to benefit & serve others - the faster we progress spiritually? Hmmm ...

So, the discussion, in & of itself, won't really help us one bit, even if we do believe in the standard of perfection, as I do. Doing matters much, words matter much less. And thus Christ did, and did not simply preach.

What else can I say? My experiences, my whole life - albeit with some events & stages standing out more so than others - has proven adequately enough for me, the existence of the "just men made perfect" that I have referred to. Your experiences might suggest otherwise. But for what it's worth, I rely just as much as you do on what I consider to be the "revealed Word(s) of God" for my faith and beliefs. So, if that is your highest appeal, then I accept the testimony of Christ(ed) Jesus, along with various of the other Perfect Men I have mentioned, as verification, and perhaps even cause in & of itself ... for my faith. Is that faith strong?

You bet.

In Love & Light,

andrew