Esoteric approaches to Foundations of Christianity

Soteriology meets Cosmology

Dondi said:
There are scriptures indicate that Jesus Christ was alway Diety. Yet it wasn't until His Baptism that there is evidence that the Holy Spirit operated in His life through the works of miracles and healings (unless you consider the tradition that he turn clay into a living bird in his formative years). Was it at this point that the Holy Spirit embodied Christ or did He have that power all along and it merely lay dormant?

I would be interested in knowing the various viewpoints on this.
Wow! Here is, imo, the aspect of discussion on Christianity's Foundations that will lead us eventually to questions of a cosmological nature rather than purely soteriological (or ethical), since I think we are probably all agreed that God, whether as Trinity, as Absolute, or even as (a) Manifested Being, most certainly preceded the creation of Humanity.

My response to you Dondi, as a quasi-esotericist is that we do no disservice whatsoever either to the person of Jesus of Nazareth, or even to that much greater Individual Being whom we call The Christ, if we shift our attention to the very ASPECT of Godhood which Christians call The Second Aspect of the Trinity. The problem (for some) will be that the association has been made so fully even between Jesus of Nazareth and The Christ, that even to distinguish these two individuals is all but impossible without a lengthy treatise - and much, much meditation upon the implications of recognizing the distinction. To try and go a step further, and illustrate that The Christ is a soul just as you and I, Who has attained to the stated goal of (Human) evolution far, far ahead of any of the rest of us ... is that much more difficult given the many centuries of tradition, and the additional implications of accepting this possibility.

But without meaning to sound either pretentious, or presumptuous, might I at least give my own testimony, by way of assurance, that in my own life, some years ago when I came to straighten out the above threads of Christianity from the greater warp and woof of historical and spiritual tradition ... a world of burden was lifted from me, and very gradually, a new understanding did dawn - which opened up for me a whole new type of understanding, propelled me along a whole new course of inquiry and exploration, and also delivered me promptly to the gates of Responsibility where Duty, in a stern yet lovingly gentle voice, apprised me of where I might begin. If I did not hold my own understanding dear to my heart, and regard it as helpful and true (however limited & incomplete), then certainly I would not presume to share the elements which led me to assemble the facts into their present form. I could go on about how there are certain things you can just "take to the bank," either because they find endorsement from so-and-so, or because it can be shown that the Teachings have a high and lofty source, or because the various ideas just resonate so strongly with other, related teachings ... yet what the Buddha advised us to do was this:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"I taught you not to believe merely because you have heard, but when you believed of your consciousness, then to act accordingly and abundantly."[/FONT]
Going with that, I would offer my limited understanding of the Great One Whom history knows as Jesus of Nazareth as being a born Initiate, and whether or not he was an Essene or received Essene teachings, I believe it is safe to say that he both visited Egypt and was initiated into her Mystery Tradition, also visited Greece and did the same, and traveled further East into India, Kashmir, and possibly Tibet, again receiving entry into the Eastern Mysteries and demonstrating Mastery of the subjects and subtleties involved (in each case). I can only respond to your objections, Thomas, with a refutation based on my own inner conviction that Jesus did make these travels, yet you raise such an important point - that I am embarrassed to admit that certain obvious problems had never even occurred to me! :eek:

I will check out the link provided, but my own understanding of Notovich is that he has not been proved a fraud or imposter, merely challenged. I might be wrong. What I do think is important to consider is the objection that Buddhism was unknown in Tibet until it was introduced by the Emperor Songtsen Gampo in the 7th Century. Padmasambhava (a Pakistani), in the 8th Century, is known to have reformed the indigenous Bon religion - which was actually pretty much sorcery. And Tibetan Buddhists recognize the importance of Atisha (a 11th century Indian scholar & teacher), who came to Tibet at the behest of the King Jangchub, "to present a Dharma that everybody could follow and that would show how all the paths of Sutra and Tantra could be practiced together" (from the website).

Now, if all this is so, and it is, then how could Jesus have visited the monasteries which hold, or held, Notovich's records. Even if we allow that the tradition was recorded and passed down, such that the manuscripts were more recent, I find myself wondering (since I haven't read Notovich's work for some time, although it close at hand) - just whom did Jesus actually visit? I find myself looking up the records at this very minute, as to when the Trans-Himalayan Branch of the Brotherood was founded ... and the following excerpt from one of Alice Bailey's letters, though on a different subject, is relevant:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"The Yoga Sutras are the basic teaching of the Trans-Himalayan School to which many of the Masters of the Wisdom belong, and many students hold that the Essenes and other schools of mystical training and thought, closely connected with the founder of Christianity and the early Christians, are based upon the same system and that their teachers were trained in the great Trans-Himalayan School." (Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, Introductory Remarks)
Speaking of "walled gardens," perhaps one of the most beautiful letters, by way of description, found among any of the Teachings of the Eastern Masters, is this, which I just stumbled across - and which would be proof enough for me of the existence of their Mountain Retreat ... were I not already, long years ago, convinced. Still, I am searching for a date ...

Aha! Found it. Not specific, but the indication is clear enough ... from Treatise on White Magic (pp.379-380):
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"5. It was decided about seventeen million years ago (the coming of the Hierarchy and the founding of Shamballa being about eighteen and a half million years ago) to have on the dense physical plane an organization and a headquarters for the mysteries, and to have a band of Adepts, and Chohans [a Tibetan word meaning [/FONT]"Lords of the dharma"][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] who would function in dense physical bodies and thus meet the need of the rapidly awakening humanity.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]6. The first outpost for the Shamballa Fraternity was the original temple of Ibez and it was located in the center of South America, and one of its branches at a much later period was to be found in the ancient Maya institutions, and the basic worship of the Sun as the source of life in the hearts of all men. A second branch was later established in Asia, and of this branch the Himalayan and southern Indian adepts are the representatives, though the work is materially changed. At a later date than the present, discoveries will be made, revealing the reality of the old form of hierarchical work; ancient records and monuments will be revealed, some above ground and many in subterranean fastnesses. As the mysteries of Central Asia in the land stretching from Chaldea and Babylon through Turkestan to Manchuria, including the Gobi desert, are opened up, it is planned that much of the early history of the Ibezhan workers will be revealed."[/FONT]
For simplicity's sake, if I may, Thomas, I would say, you may quote your Bible, I shall quote mine. :) As to further questions of scholarship, always an important concern for the sincere student, or even the casual inquirer, I would say - let us take that up elsewhere. I might find several dozen sources that corroborate this tradition (in my emphasis above), but for now, I shall rest content with the notion that Jesus did find the Branch of the Brotherhood to which he had been called, when he arrived in Tibet. ;)

I can only give short shrift at this point to the subject of the history of the Great One Who was Jesus' own Master, and to Whom Earth's entire Spritual Hierarchy (aka The Brotherhood, the Lodge of Masters & Adepts, the Inner Government of our World ), as well as the DEVA/Angelic Kingdom, answers. Basically, we are told that a former incarnation of this being was Sri Krishna of India, perhaps as early as 3100 years BC, perhaps even earlier. There are Theosophical traditions, or investigations, which purport to give yet earlier, or other incarnations of The Christ ... but personally, I am skeptical, and some of the clairvoyant research used in these accounts seems highly dubious - though to invoke the familiar expression, let's not discount all clairvoyant research with the murky bathwater, or even reject Bishop Leadbeater's research out of hand. Perhaps he glimpsed the truth, yet its helpfulness in truly understanding The Christ, let alone Christ Jesus, seems unlikely.

Someone please pick up the signficance of `Christos,' which cannot properly be understood without also addressing `chrestos,' and refresh us on the existence of a Jewish Mystery Tradition of which Jesus of Nazareth would have been well aware, and would have taken full advantage of in his later teachings and actions. I am sure the Jewish forum will be helpful, although commentary from a strictly esoteric approach is also useful.

As for the whereabouts of The Christ during the birth, early years, travels, and preparation of Jesus of Nazareth, we should be careful how we approach this question. I would make an additional reference to the teachings of Alice Bailey, from her very first book (Initiation Human & Solar) of 1919:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Ever since he left the earth, as related with approximate accuracy in the Bible story (though with much error in detail) has [Christ] stayed with the sons of men; never has he really gone, but only in appearance, and in a physical body he can be found by those who know the way, dwelling in the Himalayas ..."
For clarity's sake, let us contrast this with a description of the Master Jesus, found a few pages later (p.57):
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"The Master Jesus, who is the focal point of the energy that flows through the various Christian churches, is at present living in a Syrian body, and dwells in a certain part of the Holy Land. He travels much and passes considerable time in various parts of Europe."
Lest we over-objectify, consider that the same teachings will stress that perhaps the largest portion of a Master's work (and he works round the clock, often in realms transcendent of time altogether, and certainly while the body sleeps), occurs out of the body, and certainly upon the Inner Planes. This has nothing (in all practicality) to do with the astral plane, but rather, signifies what one Master calls 'The Fiery World,' and has everything to do with the very real energies of Light, Love and Power.

As for the Baptism at the River Jordan, here is where the "Golden Thread" unmistakably began to weave with the "Silver Thread," as the Tibetan Master put it ... although I'd say it's a safe bet that we are seeing the culmination of Jesus' preparation and careful training (from His Master, The Christ), not its incipiation. And so long as we speak of Christed Jesus, we do not commit error, yet for simplicity's sake, we might simply speak of The CHRIST from this moment forward ...

Not a word have I said, save from my initial post, on the idea that the 2nd Aspect of Christian Trinity is something much, much greater than either Jesus or Him Whom we call The Christ ... yet by stating that we are considering the spiritual evolution of two distinct individuals - these, the eldest, and one of the eldest among us - I believe I leave that door open. Christ embodied the 2nd Aspect, most esotericists (and Christians) would certainly say, but the inherent problems with this terminology suggest that Expressed would better serve.

To clarify, the energies emanate from the Great Star SIRIUS, which for simplicity's sake we may regard as the source, or expression in this Solar System, of the COSMIC CHRIST. This says nothing about the Cosmic equivalent of the Holy Spirit (ahem, Pleiades!), let along the FATHER (cough - Great Bear! :D) ...

Now if you can stand there, in all sensibility and sanity, and tell me that the man Jesus of Nazareth personally gave rise to those stars, constellations, and Cosmic Energies ... then I would respectfully suggest that Christ Pantocrator has been woefully twisted from its original intent ... ;)


lunamoth said:
Seems like a lot of work. :) Compare: " 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matt 11, NIV)
True, but let us not forget the response given to the rich man - who, after all, HAD observed the Mosaic Commandments ... which equates today with living as God had up until that point indicated. Christ asked this man to sell all that he had, and to come follow, which we must only assume he truly meant seriously. Would he have been joking, or saying this merely to point out that this man could not do it? Please reconsider if this is what you believe. Let us at least entertain the thought that Christ was extending this man a tremendous karmic opportunity, for He knew that his last days were near.

But the man could not do it. Different advice, for different times. Today we are called to remain at our post, yet to call upon the Christ and seek to live our lives in the Light ... and I wonder how many of us are like this rich man, after all, who lived a fine, upstanding life, yet could not make the necessary sacrifice as he stood before the Master Himself.

Many are called, few are admitted. Chosen, I think, is better an indication here that the Narrow Way demands more than 99.9% of us are willing or able to give - as of yet. As one who holds that Christ taught the great Law of Rebirth, including its mechanism, Karma ... I return to the notion that we all shall reach the goal, yet not likely in the present go-round. Still, merrily merrily we may Enter the Stream ... and one day, sure as - uh, shoe polish - we will attain.

The quoted scripture says to me, Luna, that we are never given more than we are capable of handling, and also that the very Strength of the Lord is with us always, if we but call upon it/Him. :)

lunamoth said:
This seems a little backwards to me. I don't think that we activate the Christ within us, but that the Christ within activates and perfects us. Further, we all dwell within Christ, and lives of love and virtue flow through us and out into the world to greater and greater extents as we uncover the Spirit and realize our relationship with Christ and develop our trust in God.
To clarify this point, I'm going to ramble a bit, as is my style (I inserted this, because it is the truth). Of course, it's up to you to do the mining! :p

Many good posts were made some time ago under the Eastern Thought forums, last year I think, on our spiritual constitution, or build-up. Agnideva made an excellent one here. And many, many of my posts, especially in months gone by, where I think I exercised poor discretion in what I posted where ... detailed at length the various correspondences between such schools as thought as the Egyptian, Hebrew/Kabbalistic, Hindu/Vedic, Buddhistic, Theosophical, and Alchemical regarding this matter.

By way of refresher, the idea is that our consciousness expresses itself through a physical body, which itself is ensouled by the nephesh - or `breath of life.' Death is, by definition, the withdrawal of the nephesh from the physical ... which is shortly followed by withdrawal from the nephesh, as well. Okay, fine - what does that leave?

The onion peels. We are everything we just were, minus a (dual) physical body. We feel, we think, we desire, we aspire, we yearn, we struggle, and we remain unenlightened ... not really that much closer to God, and most certainly - save for rare exceptions - we have not become Christed. A sojourn may occur, lasting some months or years, but as we wander the Tibetan Bardo (purgatory, the astral plane, etc.) ... we are but using the same astral body which we have developed every second of our earthly life. The Law of Karma, ancient and inexorable (as put in the Dhammapada) governs here, just as in physical expression ... but John Lennon's Instant Karma is a bit more likely to occur to us, since our every thought and feeling are either literally visible, or else have immediately observable, tangible effects (upon others, upon the world around us, and within/upon our very own being). No wonder we often quickly learn to cease generating negativity! ;)

The only difference between here and the other side of the veil, experientially, is that during life, the astral body does not usually serve as a direct vehicle of consciousness. We may slip out of the body every night and travel in it, but most of us are only partially aware of the true nature of what is going on, and only those who have already bridged their consciousness experience neither sleep nor death. These folk do not usually even travel in the astral body, and this too, remains with the sleeping body back on "earth." For the greatest percentage of those who cross over, however, the astral plane (and body) does become a temporary prison, just as the physical body is the limiting factor during our earthly lives.

Even once our astral sojourn is over, our consciousness still remains. The purging and cleansing of our aura & astral double, occurs during earthly life for those who voluntarily elect to live appropriately ... but it occurs regardless of our choice & preference once we cross over. ;)

The liberation of the human soul from the astral body itself is an event which every one of us has experienced literally thousands of times. This is the culmination of our purgatorial experience, and those who successfully cross the Burning Ground of spiritual purification (of character, including body, emotions/desire, and mind) ... achieve permanent liberation from astral-emotional limitations during earthly life. Many such people exist today, easily numbering in the thousands - perhaps millions. These are the esoterically Baptized, having passed the 2nd Initiation which Christ symbolized for us at Jordan (He Himself would have taken it long, long ago, for even Jesus of Nazareth took it long prior to his birth in Bethlehem).

An Initiate of the Third Degree, whether in incarnation or not, has permanently mastered living in the lower mental world. The purely human, concrete material mind - whose outstanding characteristic is rational, scientific thought - must become Transfigured, and thus the 3rd-Degree Initiate is a master of his own triple-natured human personality, but not occultly Liberated (saved, redeemed), for reasons that concern group & planetary karma. Every one catches another glimpse of just what such perfection of lower mind looks like once we leave the astral, following death. Our capacity to understand the tremendous power, and Presence of Spirit, which accompany an Initiate of the Third Degree, will depend largely on the state of our own spiritual development, and on the relative proximity of our own Soul along the journey that leads from Aspiration, to Purification, to Discipline, through test & trial to triumph and accomplishment - and finally admits us to the Higher Mysteries as the Transfigured Initiate.

But both the Transfigured, and every one of us after we reach the farthest shores following death, will eventually find ourselves looking face to face into the Radiant, Beautiful PRESENCE of a Being Whom & Which esoteric teachings call the Solar Angel, Angel of the Presence, or Agnishvatta (Sanskrit, meaning `tasted or sweetened by fire').

For etymology's sake, and to support this idea, I would point out that AVALOKITESHVARA, the Tibetan Buddhist Dhyani Bodhisattva Chenresi, is Sanskrit for "The Lord Who is SEEN." Another supporting point comes from the esoteric teachings regarding the Lords of the Shining Countenance, who are our Souls, and who warred in Atlantean times with the Lords of the Dark Face. Yet another indication is the Sanskrit word DEVA, which means `Shining One,' and the Agnishvatta, referenced above, that being who serves during our many earthly lives as our Soul - the true guardian Angel.

Finally, since I did grow up Lutheran, I have recently recalled, and made the connection with the liturgical reference to this aspect of our Lord God - mentioned not once but twice (!) - where we are told at the close of the service in the Aaronic Blessing:
"May the Lord bless you and keep you;
may the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious unto you;
may the Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
and give you peace." (emphasis mine)
Recall also, that Moses did not see the face of God directly, but beheld His Glory in the form of the Burning Bush ... since our Lord, who is a Mighty and Consuming FIRE - does not fully reveal this Countenance until the 3rd Initation. Nevertheless, we do behold, upon reaching the very gates of Heaven, the Shining, Beautiful Countenance of the Soul, which is an individualized, manifested representative of God. This being has residence in the Higher portions of the mental world, inhabiting the true Temple of Solomon ("not built with human hands"), which Theosophists call the Causal Body, since it concerns the Platonic world of (true) Forms, or Causes. The Greeks called it Augeoides in the Mystery Tradition, which again means `Radiant One.' The emphasis in New Age teachings on Lightworkers and Light energy, and on "beings of light" (vague, yet suggestive) ... all signal some connection with this aspect of our being

To put the relationship straight between our earthly personality and the Soul/Christ within, the Bhagavad Gita makes Sri Krishna to say (speaking as this aspect of our Being):
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Having pervaded this whole universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain."
When speaking of the "I-ness" of the personality (our `lower self') which our Souls enable, the Sanskrit word is Ahamkara. Though legitimate, we find ultimately that this princple is an illusion, for we each have experiences as a separated self ... and so important is it to understand the implications of ahamkhara vs. Right Understanding, that the ancient tradition calls it the dire heresy of separateness. No, this is no mere "Eastern conception," or way of thinking ... this is the very nature of the world we live in, or at least, the result of our collective amnesia, and a condition of the allegorical Fall.

We would do well to untangle ourselves from the misconception that every human soul is an erring, sinful creature - for this denies the very existence, and outstretched hand of the overshadowing Agnishvatta, the SOUL in whom & which is verily incarnated the fragment of the Divine Spark which is our true, Father in Heaven (sparks do not exist apart from Fire - we may make a distinction, but we cannot separate them). But we must work with all our might to disentangle ourselves from the much more difficult condition of Identification with Matter ... which condition, though a necessary stage of our human evolution, presents a challenge - and a potential condition of sinfulness, to the extent that we recognize Spirit, yet continue to transgress Nature's (God's) LAWs.

We can start by saying in our meditations/prayers, "I have a physical body, but I am not that body. I am the Soul. I have an emotional body, but I am not that body. I am the Soul. I have a mind/mental body, but I am not that mental body, I am the Soul."

My own position regarding the "Christ within" - which I have detailed at length - is incomplete without a recognition of the importance of the Higher Initiations which complete us spiritually. To say that CHRIST is the One Whom & Which effects this completion ... is accurate, and for many, adequate - but for others, incomplete. To approach the Father, we must occultly pass through The Christ, and even for the Transfigured Initiate (of the 3rd Degree) THIS REQUIRES WORK. He will continue to store up his treasures in Heaven - and the Temple of Solomon, the body of the SOUL, is not to be thought of as some kind of receptacle which safeguards the fruits of accomplishment, so that we can selfishly enjoy them at some future date. Jesus knew, as has every other candidate who prepared for the Fourth Initiation throughout history (and since) ... that he would soon be laying down his very SOUL.

It is impossible to convey even the remotest hint of his understanding, and of this certain horror which he was destined to face (as are we all, when we reach that stage) ... thus it is best not to trifle with his struggle in Gethsemance, and dismiss his woe hastily - as if it were not well beyond us. The Renunciation, spiritually, reveals to us the true signficance of the words Consuming Fire ... and to successfully lay down all that is required will mean that the Christ within, which I am emphasizing for a reason, is all that we have (left).

Eloi, eloi, lama sabachtani ... In preparation, let us cultivate our Inner Christ, and not argue over subtle distinctions. The nearness and dearness of our relationships, and moments of greatest Joy, the most intimate of Unions and experiences of Oneness, and accomplishments greater than any of us can imagine (all of these being "what Christ is made of") - all lie ahead, for each of us as individuals, and probably also for large portions of collective Humanity, before even the greatest among us is likely to utter these words, and undergo that experience. But calling us even from beyond - for They have passed that portal long, long ago - are all the Great Ones, the Master of Masters, and the Voice of God Our Father who promises us (yeah, Covenant-wise) that Ascension shall follow the Renunciation of the 4th Degree Initiate, and the Temple which is rebuilt - at the 5th Initiation - will be that in which we all reside, perhaps for a small Eternity.


Mostly Initiation, Christ as 7th Degree

Because I have broached the subject of Initiation, discussed in recent months on another post, under Christianity - with much assistance from Thomas, et al - I wanted to suggest the esoteric implications of considering what it means to travel the Path of Initiation beyond its logical conclusion (upon this planet), all the way to Christhood.

I have advanced the notion that both Jesus of Nazareth and The Christ Himself are but more advanced humans (technically, trans-human, and thus rightly categorized as Divine), and I have stated my own position that the 2nd Aspect of Godhood (the `Son') finds expression through the latter, but I have said little about the true relation between (them). I think it runs something like this:

An Adept, defined in Theosophical terms as a 5th Degree Initiate, is a human being who has transcended nearly all of the earthly limitations which it is possible for us to transcend, and has perfected his own Spiritual-Divine nature insofar as this is expected (and demanded) of us by God the Father. I would keep in the esoteric tradition of emphasizing that it is the Adept Himself who has done this work - and not the Hand of God, acting from without - for it is by choosing, of our own Free Will to exercise the potential for GOOD that is within us all, and of forcibly insisting (within our own, lesser/lower nature) that we have no hand in the evil - or in its perpetuation - that the Adept is made (rather than created).

To transfer the causative factor outside of ourself, even due to some tradition of greatest respect, or tendency toward modesty, would be to deny the facts - at least as I have come to understand them. At best, what we must admit (if it is helpful), is that Deity has provided the conditions (a material world, which serves first as the field of experience, then of Service), the vehicle (the material portions of our being, through which the Soul expresses itself), and the redeeming Agent (the Presence of the Soul & Christ Principle, both Transcendent - which Christianity has thus far emphasized almost exclusively - and Immanent/within, as I am emphasizing) which are all involved in and necessary for the alchemical work. It is we ourselves, as individuals, who combine these ingredients accordingly - in the right proportions, and ever gently, gently, so as not to produce prematurely an combustible admixture. Very adeptly, intently, with full awareness of the techniques involved - including support (read direct action/assistance), where necessary, from a Master of the Wisdom, the Disciple-come-Initiate works with these elements to synthesize the final product ... the Gold of Adeptship itself.

In the past 100 years, after a span of some 18 million, the conditions for "Graduation" from Earth's evolution became slightly more stringent. A combination of Christ's spiritual "push" 2100 years ago, the advent of new astrological energies (those which effect Liberation, on a large scale), and a fortunate - if somewhat unforseen - response from Humanity itself ... all resulted in the necessity to tighten up, so to speak, and now there is a bit more demanded of the Soul who seeks Liberation from this planet.

It is true that at the 4th Initiation (Renunciation), the being called the Agnishvatta (whose Shining Countenance served, as it were, as a "stand-in" for God's throughout our long, long cycles of literally thousands of incarnations) ... this being, Who was our Guiding Soul - is released from the bonds of Service which it voluntarily took upon itself at our Individualization (18 million years ago for some of us, but during prior evolutionary cycles for the majority).

Standing thus, on our own, we are called upon to demonstrate our Love for Humanity, our Love for all of Creation, and our Love for LIFE itself (with all the subtlest implications of that word). A Great Service is rendered to the Race of Men before we are occultly Resurrected, at the 5th Initiation. Shakespeare's entire collected works, plus the contributions of Francis Bacon, can be understood as a gift of precisely this nature - offered to us to help us on the Way. This is not unlike the Sacrifice which was made by Jesus of Nazareth ... if we focus on the Silver Thread, and distinguish it from the Golden. Jesus continued that work in his immediate reincarnation as Appollonius of Tyana, traveling to many locations to either bury, charge/recharge, or occultly activate talismanic objects which carry the magnetism of the Higher Worlds, and thereby facilitate the Work of God upon this planet.

Yet another example of such a contribution are the collected works of Alice Bailey, which are the gift of the Tibetan Master Djwal Khul, to the disciples and Initiates of the world, for whom they were intended. Some of his books, fortunately, have made it into the hands of the spiritual seeker who might not otherwise find his writing style, or content, helpful. An example would be The Reappearance of the Christ, which was dictated in 1948, and provides one example of some of the latest communication from the Esoteric Brotherhood - the Lodge of Masters, over which Christ presides. It is a simple statement of fact that the Master DK gave out this Teachings upon the request of the Christ, since as every Master, DK cooperates very closely with the Christ to hasten and secure The Christ's Reappearance. Every single person who wants to catch a glimpse of what the Christ has to say to us today ... should google up `The Great Invocation,' and ponder its words, then ask if it would be too much of a sacrifice to offer daily, in meditation, this updated form of The Lord's Prayer, as one small form of Service toward this stated end.

The Master DK states that he himself became a 5th Degree Initiate in 1875, and the statement was made by way of confirmation, and not as any sort of claim to status or of authority. A mistake occurred on the part of Alice Bailey, an important omission did not occur, and the Tibetan's works, which were until that point anonymous ... were revealed for what they are. Anonymity was helpful, because there were many of a Theosophical (or other) background, who would have been unlikely to accept that a new series of teachings was issuing from a Master of the Wisdom - and sure enough, I believe there were those who reacted. But even since Alice Bailey there have been Teachings given out, such as those of Lucille Cedercrans, and lesser known dictations (on much smaller scale) through the sibyl, Geoffrey Hodson. One may safely venture that each of these able Messengers, Alice Bailey, Lucille Cedercrans, Helena Roerich, and H.P. Blavatksy, shall in time, magnify the Good which they earlier worked in Service to Humanity - through Mightier still works as Adepts, and as Masters.

Esoterically, a Master is an Adept who takes students, thus a smaller subset, since many Adepts work in the Service of God's Plan without the added responsibilities of an Ashram of Disciples. Either way, our calling, once we reach Adeptship, will be to Increase our Good Works (a blanket phrase, since I am ignorant of the precise demands that will be placed upon us) to that point where our Spiritual capacity has increased ... and then, at long last, the final Initiation that is required of us here can be taken. At the Sixth Initiation, which resonates, so to speak, with the 4th, and the much earlier 2nd (Renunciation, and Purification, respectively), the High Initiate makes his Decision. Preparation has long been underway, but at that moment, he enters upon one of Seven Paths ... thus beginning The Way of Higher Evolution. The paths are:
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
    [*]The Path of Earth Service.
    [*]The Path of Magnetic Work.
    [*]The Path of Training for Planetary Logoi.
    [*]The Path to Sirius.
    [*]The Ray Path.
    [*]The Path on which our Logos is found.
    [*]The Path of Absolute Sonship.
If one looks carefully, it can be seen that only one of the Paths mentioned involves continued work upon this planet. The first path of Earth Service, is the one which leads to membership within the Occult Hierarchy, the Lodge of Masters. Most of us, as Lords of Compassion, will take the 4th Path, to Sirius (the source of the Cosmic Christ, happily enough). But in comparsion, consider these words of the Tibetan Master, regarding the Path of Earth Service:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"The "beneficent dragons" are distinguished by their "luminosity," and it is this basic quality which lies behind the injunction given by all spiritual teachers to their pupils in the words "let your light shine forth."


There is no way that I make sense, I begin to realize, if I were to try to say something about the 7th Initiation. It's like trying to talk about rocket surgery, except that - in much shorter time - any of us could much more easily pursue the necessary training and sho' nuff, learn to operate on rockets. :p

We are really in no place or position to contemplate what might be required in order to move from Chohanship - the condition of being a Sixth Degree Initiate - to Christhood (or its equivalent), which corresponds to the Seventh Initiation. Elsewhere I have posted a bit about the Seven Rays, and there was some good discussion. These do correspond to the above, Seven Paths, and they also determine the very structure of the Spiritual Brotherhood of the planet ... as there are seven permanent offices held by Chohans, often proudly enumerated by esoteric students - yet names seem unimportant, as these are actually Beings of stupendous spirtual stature, embodying (I mean, expressing) for us in their very person the Seven Primary Energies that govern all of Cosmos. Master Jesus is understood as the Chohan of the 6th Ray, and two of the Theosophical Masters are the 1st and 2nd Ray Chohans. St. Paul, subsequently Iamblichus and now a Master, is Chohan of the 5th.

Rays 1, 2 and 3 correspond with the Christian Trinity (or Hindu Trimurti), yet this Trinity has a more direct (exalted?) manifestation, composed of three Representatives who each embody one Aspect. Christ serves along the 2nd Ray (2nd Aspect), the Manu (Vaivasvata, as in Code of Manu) serves along the 1st, and the Maha Chohan (`Great Lord') serves along Ray 3, of which Rays 4-7 are subsidiary. Sometimes these Hierarchical offices are given as Manu, Bodhisattva, and Lord of Civilization. One has to do with politics & leadership, the second with education & spiritual guidance (or culture), and the third with the development of civilization itself.


The Earth's Occult Hierarchy is said to include a number of Buddhas, each of Whom could be labeled an 8th Degree Initiate, meaningless as that may be. Shakyamuni Buddha, having attained this degree through our own evolution (though technically originating on the one prior), is accompanied by three additional Buddhas who are known in the East as Kumaras. An additional three Kumaras are said to be Esoteric, little information being provided. The Chief Kumara, or an Initiate corresponding easily to the Ninth Degree (Tenth?) ... is Sanat Kumara, and every Christian knows Him pretty well. He's GOD. Biblically, we find mention of Melchizadek, there is the Ancient of Days, and to post a few non-copyrighted images form the work of Manly Hall (Augustus Knapp is the actual artist), we may depict or visualize him in the first of these forms:


The first image is that which relates to your first post, flowperson, and shows the figures you mentioned - from Ezekiel's vision. Here, the Ancient of Days is shown reverently as many Christians have come to visualize Him. Notice the lowermost figure in the image, which represents Humanity (as a whole, though instantiated or individualized through each man & woman) ... itself a cyclical figure, indicative of our sojourn through the world under the Law of Rebirth. From this Law, relative to our world, Sanat Kumara is exempt, having utterly transcended.

All three energies, or Aspects, of the Christian Trinity find place, conditioning or influencing the world - these emanating from the right and left hand of God, plus from his beard (I trust this is, for the most part, symbolic!). The twin pillars of Jachin and Boaz will be recognized (Gemini, prominent in Masonic teachings), and the figure atop Sanat Kumara is SOPHIA as the Divine Femenine, the Wisdom Aspect or Para-Sakti, and at the uppermost, the El, Flame of God, or even Ain Soph.

The second figure shows the activity of the Demiurgos, rescuing it - at least in my own mind and observation - from the influence of the Gnostics. We can see a duality, the interlaced triangles of Spirit & matter (Seal of Solomon), the Christ Principle at the very Heart of Creation, the encircling limitation (or Ring-Pass-Not) of God's manifested Presence, and even the triple-Aspect of Christ (each Aspect of the Trinity manifests triply), since he is unredeemed/latent at the bottom of the figure (a cross, inverted, as the reflection of the headpiece), fully redeemed and triumphant at the top (the original cross, uppermost), and Redeemer proper at the true heart of all of manifestation (the large, rather obvious red cross which is produced at the intersection of matter & spirit, sic). No, this is not Sanat Kumara proper, yet I feel it somehow belongs alongside an image of God the Father, as it is a good artistic depiction of the activity of another Aspect of God (or two Aspects, actually).

The third figure, I wonder if you might say something about, flowperson ... :)


A few, shorter responses to various posts, since the typing is killing me, and no doubt driving some folks nuts ..

Thomas said:
The crucial distinction is whether Christ is in us - a God parcelled out throughout creation - which leads to dualism, monism, pantheism etc., and essentially a confusion of the notion of 'person'; or whether we are in Him, which is of a different order of understanding entirely.

Orthodox Christianity is unquestionably of the latter
Wil said:
picture a flashlight beam or sound wave going through a smoke filled room...that light going through...that sound traveling through...that is my life our lives, our world, our solar system, our galaxy waltzing through G-d wherever we go...G-d is, in front, behind, above, below, within us...
This is a beautiful visual, Wil, and I think it addresses Thomas' question of distinction adroitly. I think a problem does arise if we have come to think of God as parcelled out ... and in the very least we owe it to ourselves to ask what is meant by the axiom: The Whole is greater than the sum of its parts! :)

The idea of a holographic Universe, was presented to my recently by a good friend and colleague of mine who is devoutly Christian, yet contemplative of the Mysteries and even open to various of the New Age ideas which complement traditional teachings ... just as are so many folks at CR. This friend shared an essay from Michael Talbot, which can be found at Crystallinks, here.

My own visual, whose inspiration I owe variously to Annie Besant and to Tibetan Buddhism, is that of the Diamond Soul ... as one of those little things you can buy in New Age shops, and which sparkles and scintillates with a myriad countless (okay, about 60 billion) facets. Each of these conveys the One Light, but they vary in shape, angle, and relationship to their neighboring facets. Each refracts the Light in some degree, but to say that the LIGHT itself, the transcendent source of Beauty and inspiration to the prismatic soul, is broken, is I think a misstatement.

Krishna from the Bhagavad Gita: "Having pervaded the entire Universe with a fragment of myself, I remain."

Thomas said:
Left unqualified, that is a pantheistic interpretation, His nature is determined by the nature of the cosmos - our experience and understanding of Him is thereby cosmological...

The Orthodox hold that God is knowable by His energies, but not in His essence - therefore the Universe is an activity of God, a witness to His Glory, a Theophany, but it is not God...
God in His Creation, pan-en-theism ... I would say, fine, though certainly not contained or limited by His creation. But this is only if we are still considering God relative to the Absolute, the Ain Soph, the Unmanifest. The difficulty with using such a word as `essence,' is that we must immediately define it if it is to be of value, and my question will naturally be, within what context, according to what system, or using which terminology/tradition?

I just need a little more to go on here ...

Thomas said:
"pan-entheism" - God indwells in all things;
but not:
"panen-theism" - All things are part of God but God is more than the sum of all things.
Honestly, this part confuses me. I see the first definition, and that's what I believe. But, I look at the second, and this is exactly what I believe, as well. How are these conflicting, with metaphysical difference "absolute?"

I would say: God created the entire Cosmos through the activity of the 3rd Aspect. He ensouls it through the pouring forth of lifewave after lifewave, via the 2nd Aspect. We can view this purely cosmologically, we can reduce it to our own Solar System or planet with relevance to Humanity (or other Kingdoms), or we can even narrow and apply this to the sojourn of the individual human Soul, or Divine Pilgrim. Then we can approach the 1st Aspect as that (activity of God) which affords Liberation/Salvation (Redemption) by the destruction of Form (Siva to the Hindus).

But my point in all of this, is that it is God who gives rise to Creation, God who ensouls it, God who redeems it. The suggestion is not being made that man redeems himself unaided ... for that is absurd. The point is, God has thought these things through. He's a really, really neat guy - and He can see stuff happening down the road before we even remember a road is there! A blueprint is there, and when unexpected circumstances arise, I believe it's safe to assume that God has matters well in hand. Our mistake is to lose faith and imagine a God who has to make things up as He goes along, or who screws up so severely that major course corrections are necessary - with invention after invention to correct the former screw-up.

Ptolemy best epitomizes this kind of absurdity, with his epicycles and epicycles within epicycles ... while only the later corrections of Copernicus, and eventually Galileo, would straighten things out.

Major disasters perhaps occur; esoteric teachings are replete with such indications. But we do not have to keep reinventing God, or re-examining our fundamentals/tenets with each new piece of information - unless, of course, we have been mistaken in our assumptions. And this happens, so that we do have to ask some of the basic questions, over and over again. There are alternatives, and if we do not like to questions, this too is an option. :rolleyes:

As for the quotation from St. Maximus, I must take this up on another thread, because though relevant, it stretch my abilities past their limit, and takes us into esoteric Cosmology, rather than soteriology. I think I would try and respond at least in qualified form, by pointing to the esoteric teaching for the very necessity of the Coming of the Agnishvattas (those beings which impart to us our Soul), which occupies nearly the entirety of the 2nd volume of The Secret Doctrine (H. P. Blavatsky). Mankind, up until 18 million years ago, was not complete. We were what is called "animal-man," referred to Biblically as the nephilim, or `giants.' In simple terms, we were soulless.

This is perfectly in accordance with the Divine Plan ... and shows the result, or fruit of labor, up until that point of two different orders of our Divine Progenitors. These two orders are said esoterically to have "fallen," yet even then, the Biblical Eden did not exist (in one connotation). A final order of Divine Beings did finally provide mankind with the missing intermediary principle (the bridging aspect of consciousness), which means that these beings, also, "fell."


Dondi said:
I think it would be instructive to discuss just how one obtains this "Christ within us all". For if it is the goal to become "Christ-like" it would behoove us as to what that actually entails. Has this "Christ" always been with us or in us just laying dormant until such a time that we realize that presence in us? Or is it something that is imparted to us upon our merging with God, perhaps in the form of the Holy Spirit? Or is it something else?

The reason I bring this up is that if we are to benefit form this Christ presence in us, we ought to know how it originates.

There are scriptures indicate that Jesus Christ was alway Diety. Yet it wasn't until His Baptism that there is evidence that the Holy Spirit operated in His life through the works of miracles and healings (unless you consider the tradition that he turn clay into a living bird in his formative years). Was it at this point that the Holy Spirit embodied Christ or did He have that power all along and it merely lay dormant?

I would be interested in knowing the various viewpoints on this.

"If a man wishes to come after me, he must deny his very self, take up his cross, and follow me." (Matt 16:24)

That is the entire work summed up into three distinct points directly related with the Trinity.

To deny one's self is to remove the ego. Not just egotism as many people like to state, but the ego, because the "I" we live and breathe as cannot mix with Christ. This is why Jesus had to die, but this death is not achieved through physical death but psychological death. This is the real context of the "Book of the Dead" found in Egypt and Tibet. The Resurrection of Christ only occurs in the one who dies. To incarnate the Christ is to exist beyond individuality (yet remain with it nominally). This aspect is related with the Father, the real "I AM THAT I AM" which totally opposes the "I" or the "ego."

To take up the cross is means to bear your own burden for the sake of others, yet its esoteric application is entirely tantric. This is related with the Universal Impregnator, the Holy Spirit. Christ cannot be born without the mystery of the crossing of Shiva-Shakti (Joseph and Mary).

To follow Christ is to live the doctrine, not within one's head as an idea, but to actually become compassionate towards others, giving universal charity, etc. This is related with the Second Logos, the Son, the Wisdom of the Word.

In sum, the entire Eightfold Path is synthesized within these words.

flowperson said:
There are even unsustantiated indications that I have run across in my research that an early version of Daniel was a part of the Dead Sea Scrolls discoveries after WW II, but that agencies of government moved to take possession of it early on and have witheld its contents from open scholarly research ever since.

I wonder a lot about such things, but then others have said that I'm weird in that way, along with a few others.
When it comes to conspiracies, I have seen indication that yes, portions of the Dead Sea Scrolls have been intentionally withheld. Shoot, it wouldn't be the first time! The ecclesiastical authorities of the christian church (both Catholic and Protestant, also Orthodox?) have quite a vested interest in protecting tradition. I can well understand this, and I will even concede the possibility of good motive, in the majority of cases. None of this alters the fact that we have the need to know!

This is perhaps a similar situation to the withholding of information regarding the Roswell crash by the American government. In the case of UFO/ET information, there is concern over the fear reaction of the masses, as well as the impact this would have on various institutions - notably the religious, but perhaps more importantly, our economy. So-called "free energy devices" have been developed long ago, but not yet mass produced. ET technology harnesses energies which we ourselves utilize on a smaller scale even to put our lips together and say CAT. But what would happen if we put a device into every American home which would tap the great cosmic storehouse of energies (not limitless, but damn near close enough as far as we're concerned! :p)? And what if we had Mr. Fusion from Doctor Emmett Brown's DeLorean at the end of Back to the Future? Bye-bye trillion-dollar automobile industry, and bye-bye shrubby & Uncle Cheney's multi-billion $$ Iraq war-machine.

The church has very similar concerns with free inquiry when it comes the Mysteries and the truth regarding Jesus of Nazareth - and these questions were already so signficant 2000 years ago that even the birth of the supposed Savior was offset by 100 years, due to the necessity for making church agendas align with history (rather than fact). Substantiate this? Give hard, concrete facts? Why should I need to? If I am wrong, what possible harm will it do for people to inquire, arrive at their own realization that I'm just whistling Dixie, and learn something about poor scholasticism along the way? The problem is - I'm right - and this means that quite a few of our everyday assumptions are just a wee bit out of kilter. By way of illustration, and I know this will seem trivial to some, but let's consider the very method of reckoning for arriving at today's date!

We say that the year is 2006 Anno Domini (or
Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi, meaning, `In the year of Our Lord Jesus Christ'). Some, notably those who are either non-Christian, secular-minded, or just generally resistent to this influence ... prefer to say CE, for Common Era. But most scholars have now fixed the date of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth at about 3BCE. Our common era, either way you look at it, began about 2000 years ago. Now hang on just a sec here ... might it not be important, and highly controversial, if we found that Jesus of Nazareth was in fact born in 105BCE, living for 33 years and being crucified not around 30AD, but more like 72BCE??? You're darn right it's controversial!!! Because then our dating system is way, way off.

No, certainly this isn't the issue that most concerns the Ecclesiastical authorities, but even the earliest church Fathers were not uneducated in the Pagan and Mystery Traditions. They well knew the signficance of Christ's coming, how this fit in with world history, and many of them had a very good understanding of the fact that this was a regular and natural occurrence, if we may speak so freely of the Incarnation of a (Perfected) Divine Son of God. Against the backdrop of the promised Lamb of Aries (umm, RAM!), which followed the worship of the golden calf of Taurus (umm, BULL!), the appearance on the scene of Fish-Man (Oannes, Christ as Piscean Savior - hello, Christianity, of the FISHES!) makes perfect sense. And to advance the zodiac one full era would bring us to Aquarius in such fashion that Christ as water-bearer would, again, just be entirely obvious and logical to anyone even vaguely aware of the Mystery Teachings of those times ...
"And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in." (Luke 22:10)
Something that is now fairly accepted as astronomical fact, and not astrological speculation, is that the zodiacal eras to which I'm referring, are each periods of some 2100 years (give or take several decades). The greater cycle which determines this number is somewhere between 25,000 and 26,000 years, so this number, divided by 12, equals the time that our Sun resides in each House. It is what I will hesitate to call "common wisdom" that we have either transitioned into Aquarius already (I would say in 1944), or are now so doing. The notion that Christed Jesus lived a full 100 years before the date conventionally accepted, would show that Pisces was inaugurated sometime about 2110 years ago, if we fix the birth of Jesus as the indicative sign (Anno Domini). Gee, this just fits beautifully with what we now know scientifically ... but, alas, sighhhhh ... this just makes things too easy! Yes, it complicates our calendar - so that 2006 becomes 2111 (add the 105 years by which things have been offset) - but again, that's not the real issue.

The real issue, as best it can be rendered simply and in abbreviated form, is that if we admit of a Christ within, as the early Knowers of the Christian Church did, Christ's own Apostles among them ... then what need for the Church? Indeed, if each person can "get to God" on his own, through his own efforts, even in the sanctuary of his very own house (and why not, if even the body is the Temple of God) ... then why should the Church ever become a factor? It is not a question of insulting the good character of a well-intentioned priest or two, or of infuriating the Jesuits with all their various trappings - this is an issue which might have short-circuited the very rise to power of the Catholic Church itself, had matters proceeded differently. But this is not to hang the albatross around Catholicism's neck, for the Calvinists added amply to the burden, and now we see Superstition reigning supreme where GNOSIS might otherwise have ruled the day.

I do not protest what Christians call Fellowship, for this is what Christ taught, and encouraged. Nor would the Right WORSHIP of that very God Who sent the Christ be a strange notion to the Bodhisattva, as even in the East the tradition of Reverent Regard has always existed - although let us remember these words of Christed Jesus:
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]" (John 5:30)
Christ(ed) Jesus never asked for our worship, not from his Apostles, and not from the masses. He was an incarnation of The Divine, and a full-fledged Son of God, verily, but that changes things not one whit. So was the Buddha, so was Sri Krishna (Christ in a former incarnation) ... and so a dozen, a score, easily a hundred other Teachers both before and since! But far more convenient to fix importance on what doesn't really matter, blot out the testimony (and very lives - poor Hypatia!) of those who knew the facts as they were, and reign in the chokehold on the lives (and purses) of the poor, ignorant masses.

Now if I depict a looming spectre of malicious intent and evil influence where you have have only been accustomed to picturing cherubim and seraphim, dancing with delight upon the shoulders of Deity Jesus ... then pardon my statement of facts-as-they-are. I have long wanted to say something on CR about the conspiracy aspect of the institution of "churchianity" :rolleyes: ... and I feel that finally I have had my say. The intent is not to demonize, for I could post TWELVE LONG VOLUMES of scholarship to back up everything I've just said ... UFO business included! But I have no need for that, H. P. Blavatsky having done a magnificent job already in Isis Unveiled, though I don't recommend this as light reading!

I have said again and again that imho, the Christian Church is no less legitimate a religion, and a path of approach to the Divine as any other, even notwithstanding the above caveats and the obvious corruption that has tainted her good name (and thus, Christ's) throughout history. I am keen to point out, as often as possible, that much of the error (perhaps the very greatest) lay with Christ's own closest of followers, the Apostles themselves! These bumbling dopes, revered as Saints and exalted to semi-divine status by Orthodox Xianity and Catholicism alike, did more to derail the efforts of their dear Master than perhaps all of Christianity's followers in 2100 years put together! We fault St. Paul, and yet here was a high Initiate, and for all my harping (on this thread, and others) on distinctions between Jesus, Christ, and the Father, Jesus himself had to say to Philip:
"Am I so long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9)
If you think that sounds bad, just imagine if a taijasi had been there! :p:eek:

To close on a better note, I am fond of what the Tibetan Master has to say about the work of the Masters going forth with regard to the Instititution of Christianity. An early prediction which he made, and one which I suspect may have eventuated either earlier, or later, than he foresaw (owing to the World Wars), was this ... (perhaps someone can comment):
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"The Master Jesus will take a physical vehicle, and with certain of His chelas effect a respiritualization of the Catholic churches, breaking down the barrier separating the Episcopal and Greek churches from the Roman. This may be looked for, should plans progress as hoped, about the year 1980." (A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, published in 1925)
Another hopeful excerpt, from Initiation Human and Solar, says this:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"From that time on [1st Century] [Jesus] has stayed and worked with the Christian Church, fostering the germ of true spiritual life which is to be found amongst members of all sects and divisions, and neutralizing as far as possible the mistakes and errors of the churchmen and the theologians. He is distinctively the Great Leader, the General, and the wise Executive, and in Church matters he cooperates closely with the Christ, thus saving him much and acting as his intermediary wherever possible. No one so wisely knows as he the problems of the West, no one is so closely in touch with the people who stand for all that is best in Christian teachings, and no one is so well aware of the need of the present moment. Certain great prelates of the Anglican and Catholic Churches are wise agents of his."
But again, there are large sections of the book Reappearance of the Christ which also detail the Re-Invigoration which the Christian Church is experiencing at present under the stimulation of the Christ and the various Masters ... and with The Restoration of the Mysteries, which is one of the the primary functions of the Christ during His present Mission, much will be set straight regarding the true Foundations of Christianity - which, no doubt, I have likely garbled beyond repair in my many & voluminous wanderings ...


taijasi said:
[A good tangential post, here, would focus on the fact that Dragons/serpents (Nagas), have always been revered in Eastern traditions as symbols of Wisdom, and thus the Masters of the Wisdom, once human beings just like ourselves - having entered the path of discipleship, and followed it through the several Initiations which ensue - have each and every one `graduated' and become Dragons of Wisdom. Esoteric records provide numerous appellations not just for the Masters - who correspond Buddhistically to a type of Nirmanakaya - but also for perhaps dozens of other orders and types of Exalted Ones, such as, for example, The Lords of Compassion, Whom are said to be far numerically greater than the Masters of the Wisdom. Yet it is these Dragons Who, though serving the same Universal GOOD, are able to do so on a "higher turn of the spiral," owing to a more complete development of the Manasic (mental) principle (MAHAT) ... than the Lords of Compassion. The real point which I would make, is that the SERPENT is Universally POSITIVE, and even if we restrict ourselves to the treatment of the Kundalini Force, we still dealing with "Buddhi considered as an active instead of a passive principle," as one Teacher puts it - and thus, materially speaking, the very agent or driving force of our Liberation/Salvation! So much for the evil Edenic influence/entity that drove Man to his Fall. But alas, the allegory becomes twisted, and Divine Injunction is confused with the Rebellion, which itself is the source of endless confusion, no thanks to the Gnostics - much less, to the Jesuits or recent generations of commentators.
The Serpent is the Fire. The fire can be polarized positively or negatively. This is why the Bronze Serpent of Moses healed those who where bitten by the poisonous vipers! This is why the Hathayogapradipika says "It gives liberation to yogis and bondage to fools." (iii. 107.)

The Serpent is the Blind Fohatic Force. It will go where you direct it, it is the cause of every downfall of man and every ascension of man. Jesus says to be wise as a serpent, yet he calls the Pharisees a bunch of vipers.

The Serpent is not universally postive, it is merely contains infinite potential.
Wil said:
Folks here are stepping forward all the time with their Christ presence...on every board....and occasionally we are stepping forward with a different presence.
A wonderful, beautiful point, wil ... I regard your presence, and lunamoth's as a leaven as of a rule, and Thomas' as closer to mine in the sense that the Wisdom may predominate over the Love (which is fine - the Buddha exemplifies the former, Christ the latter) ... and a good many folks have a decidedly strong 6th Ray presence, which evidences as a strong devotion, fervor, idealism and one-pointedness.

All of these work alchemical wonders as they combine and yield varying results. But I am going to have to say that Chela (sic), in one fell swoop, has managed to synthesize and synopsize in a few, choice statements, what my half-dozen posts in all their rambling could not begin to accomplish. I could not state a finer presentation of my own innermost beliefs, in those moments of lucidity when they are clear to me ... than the beautiful words from Chela, just now.

Thanks for that, Chela and wil! :)


Chela said:
The Serpent is not universally postive, it is merely contains infinite potential.
Thank you again, for this explanation and for the correction of my error. Now I know why I hestitated earlier to mention that St. Michael (and St. George) slays the dragon. It makes perfect sense, actually! :)


Chela said:
The Serpent is not universally postive, it is merely contains infinite potential.

I was actually thinking about this last night, after my post in the Judaism forum. The serpent is given pretty much equal weight in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures as both a positive and a negative force. Hmmmm.
Hi taijasi

For simplicity's sake, if I may, Thomas, I would say, you may quote your Bible, I shall quote mine.

I wish you would, or rather, I wish you would reference the sources, as I have requested before - at least something to signify there is more to this than your own speculations, entertaining as they may be.

Thomas said:
I wish you would, or rather, I wish you would reference the sources, as I have requested before - at least something to signify there is more to this than your own speculations, entertaining as they may be.

You got it! :) I do not usually document every argument I make, simply because most of my inspiration comes from the collective set of teachings known simply as The Wisdom Tradition. In recent posts I have made several references to Alice Bailey and H.P. Blavatsky; these are all cited. I also prefer to reference the Bible, when possible, especially when posting on a thread with a title like this one! Even for well-known passages, it is helpful to give reference, and I can't get out of the habit of using KJV! Upbringing, I guess ... :p

I have long been in the habit of falling back upon gnosis/buddhi as an acceptable source at least for the validation of what I have come to believe or hold sacred. However, it is a bit silly to just say, "oh, I know this," so I'm making every effort to lend credence to my convictions ... but please call me on my omission or assumptions. Lunamoth is good at that, too! ;)

Oh, and if anyone finds my posts even the least bit entertaining ... then I can breathe at least some sigh of relief. While I mean what I say, at least where I am not in error, I have no reservations whatsoever about coming off as a wee bit of a nut, and comic value sure as heck beats no value. lol Yes, my scholasticism is not quite what it used to be, but I have not yet thrown all caution to the wind ... not quite.


taijasi said:
Oh, and if anyone finds my posts even the least bit entertaining
Entertaining, you gotta be kiddin... I gotta get ready everytime I see your name...gotta print out half of em just to give some time to contemplation...

I imagine the keyboard blazin at your finger tips...and as Thomas indicates have often wondered if this is an accumulation of thought that is coursing thru your viens or if you are cuttin and pastin...

You made me look up leaven, and I'm appreciative that I can do my part...and am honored to be in with Luna on filling this role.

I've wound my way through most of your posts to this thread, and as I mentioned on my" Hi !" post, I'm a bit overwhelmed; however, I can pose a few questions and comments regarding what you have observed.

First, since Christianity has been presented to all peoples of the earth by the original church ( at least in contemporary times ) as a belief system encompassing all humans and all cultures, and often adopting local cultural expression as mediums to effectively communicate the elements of Christ's life on earth and His messages. Don't you believe it is not surprising that ancient elements in culture also indicate the timelessnes of His concepts ?
He wouldn't have had to travel there except in spirit in order to have evoked these older cultural indications.

I am puzzled by your references to Jesus' time on earth to have begun in 105 bce. Most, if not all scholarly remarks concerning this place his birth at about 6 bce when there was a planetary conjunction of unusual magnitude that many astronomers believe would have constituted the unusually prominent star mentioned in the birth stories.

Your mention of the 23,000-26,000 cycle of the astrological maps is interesting since that concurs with the 26,000 year period in which the earth's axis describes a complete circle in the cosmos. Known as precession, this could also be visualized as a series of spirals as it proceeds on its three dimensional trips through time and space; and yes, is it any wonder that chiral forms are one of the most prevalent symbols used by ancients to demonstrate sacredness. I won't even comment on the obvious reasons for the chiral form of DNA.

In his book James the Brother of Jesus, noted scholar Robert Eisenman, draws information from sources contemporary to the time of Jesus' existence among us in the first century, and notes that Jesus was mistakenly referred to as the "nazarene" throughout much of the time since then. Whereas secular references concurrent with his times, or shortly following it make reference to "Jesus the Nazirite". I don't recall what Eisenman said with reference to the Nazirite term, but it shouldn't be difficult to look up if one had the book. I no longer have my copy.

Back to your references to the eastern influences upon Christianity. The Nestorians established a significant bridgehead for the early faith in Xain in western China about 650-700 ad. There was an excellent book available on the web a short while ago detailing much of this history and the relationship of the travels of Thomas Didymus ( twin-twin and the other brother of Jesus ) to this history. It was written by a man named Herbert Christian Merrilatt who is a professor at Yale. Try googling him and I'll bet it's still there.

You should also obtain access to a book by Robert K.G. Temple , The Sirius Mystery. It has a lot of legend and lore concerning the cult of the dog star among African peoples, most notably the Dogon of Mali. Their elders have preserved legends concerning ancient visitations from Sirius and passed on illustrated depictions of the "Nommo" who visited in "Arks". Much of this was studied and documented by French researchers just prior to WW II.
One of the most amazing things in the book is the story of how the elders always depicted an invisible twin star to the main star of the Sirius system in their illustrations. The invisible twin star was first observed, photographed, and studied by U.S. Naval Observatory staff in 1970 ad.

Finally, you asked that I comment on the three depictions of the G-dhead included in your post. The first is not what is described in Daniel 7 since the four described there were under the ground and were chimera of the lion, the bear, the leopard, and some sort of iron-toothed machination. The enthroned ancient-of days character definitely controlled these deadly and ravaging powers with force, at least that is what I understood from the chapter. The human, bull, eagle, lion depiction in your post are above-ground beings, and I would suggest are a depiction of the four gospel symbols. The enthroned figure is wearing the compassionate G-d color of red, that is also associated with the passion of Jesus. I find it interesting that the pillars of the throne depict the extreme conditions of the cosmos, fire and ice, and that under each depiction of these extremes are skull figures. Mr Knapp must have had quite a pineal gland !

The second depiction is, as you noted, the demiurge creating in a reflective environment. We could assume this to be, again, a depiction of the
G-dhead's compassionate processs of creation in our world since the cross is red in color. But I believe that it has a deeper symbolic meaning in that the cross itself is symbolic of a process in the new science of complex systems. Briefly, diversities cross to form unities, which in turn cross again and again to form other new unities which are in of themselves diverse. This process, think of chromosomes forming a new plant or animal, proceeds in an ordered manner through time so that chaotic results are not dominant.

Last, there is the depiction of the fish-person emerging from the foam along the shore. This image is actually drawn equivalently from feminine and masculine references of the ancient times in the Mediterranean and middle east area. Ishtar/Aphrodite in many cultures was said to have emerged from the ocean foam. The Oannes, or Fish men of Sumerian legend, were considered to be the most highly revered of their ancient dieties, and were also the most creative. Don't forget the statue of the mermaid that watches over the harbor in Copenhagen And who could forget Darryl Hannah's depiction in the film Splash. Actually I'm trying to point out that one of the most ancient cultural beliefs among the peoples that eventually became western culture was that, as you have pointed out, the most loved and creative G-d was the androgyne who had both masculine and feminine traits. And here we have Jesus the Nazarite emerging from the foam on the shoreline to the amazement of onlookers, fishermen.


Thanks so much for your response ... and forgive me, as old episodes of bad sitcoms are flashing before my inner eye, and the phrase "kiss my grits" is coming to mind. (No, that's not directed at you, by any means, or really even relevant ... lol) What can I say - I watched Chasing Amy for the first time the other night. You can disregard all that, just trying to be punny. :p

Okay, my energies are at an ebb, despite Wesak being 36 hrs away. Perhaps I will recharge, but an honest response seems in order.

flowperson said:
Don't you believe it is not surprising that ancient elements in culture also indicate the timelessnes of His concepts ?
He wouldn't have had to travel there except in spirit in order to have evoked these older cultural indications.
Agreed that many flights in the subtle body, as you indicate, would have occurred ... but my understanding is that proximity, and sustained presence with the Teacher of Teachers, The Christ, were absolutely necessary in order for Jesus to perfect the techniques that would later allow for full overshadowing. Not much regarding this experience is revealed as of yet to the public, and probably for very good reasons - of physical and spiritual safety. But I would refer you to a most wonderful account, in light of its revealing and illuminating potential, found in Isis Unveiled (by H.P. Blavatsky), which will perhaps help.

The account, which apparently references an even earlier incident that dates some 220 years (!), begins with these words ...
"A singular account of the personal interview of an English ambassador in 1783, with a reincarnated Buddha -- barely mentioned in volume i. -- an infant of eighteen months old at that time, is given in the Asiatic Journal from the narrative of an eye-witness himself, Mr. Turner, the author of The Embassy to Thibet."
But HPB goes on to provide in full detail the eyewitness testimony of a very brief, temporary overshadowing of a 4-month old infant which stands, completely of its own capacity (apparently) and recites Tibetan Buddhist scripture ... animated during this episode by an advanced Tibetan Lama, who concedes to the brief demonstration for the spiritual encouragement of a Mr. K-, an ex-Lutheran minister and "a positivist, [who] rather prided himself on his anti-philosophical neologism."

I would ask that you read the full account, entertaining in the very least, here beginning exactly midway down, on page 598.

flowperson said:
I am puzzled by your references to Jesus' time on earth to have begun in 105 bce. Most, if not all scholarly remarks concerning this place his birth at about 6 bce when there was a planetary conjunction of unusual magnitude that many astronomers believe would have constituted the unusually prominent star mentioned in the birth stories.
I assure you that my conclusions come after many years of searching, though more so in the past year I would say than all the rest put together (regarding this particular issue) ... and my reasons for holding this view have nothing to do with a desire to be different, or simply to be controversial for controversy's sake. Right now I have every reason to believe that I am correct - but if that time comes when I see evidence to the contrary, I would gladly reverse my view.

My references, and sources of inspiration for the date 105BC are many ... yet in the last analysis, I go by what must be - and not mere speculation. Let me illustrate:

Appollonius of Tyana, according to every accepted historical reference and piece of academic inquiry, can safely be shown to be born around the year 2AD, perhaps as early as 4BC, although his death is only approximated at 98AD. EVEN if we allow greatest flexibility for his date of birth, we are off by so much as 30 years from the supposed death date of Jesus of Nazareth. This makes the men contemporaries, if we accept the church's dates for the birth and death of Jesus. As a friend used to argue to me, Appollonius could not have been the reincarnation of Jesus of Nazareth, for precisely this reason! And he had a point ...

Well this friend, though with strong opinions of his own, and somewhat different interests when it comes to esoteric writing, has long been a fellow student of the Tibetan Master's teachings through Alice Bailey, as well as his former work with H.P. Blavatsky. When all is said and done, my friend's knowledge of Kabbalistic, Gnostic, Eastern, and other esoteric doctrines far eclipses my own casual famliarity, yet we both belonged to two different meditation groups over the years which used the Tibetan's writings as the basis for focus and study. What we gained, individually and in group format, is priceless when gauged from the Soul's perspective, but I dwell on all this to show that even two good friends and students of Alice Bailey's may yet come to different conclusions (if temporarily?) as to something so - seemingly objective - as the presumed date of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Really, in many ways, it is only of passing interest, but for reasons I elaborated in one of my lengthy posts, I think the correspondence with the initiation of Humanity into the Piscean Era will make much more sense if we recognize that the church shifted the date a full century forward - for all the wrong reasons, thus confusing the average Christian (not to say, historian!) ... who might otherwise be able to see the full importance of the coming of (Christed) Jesus as Oannes, to inaugurate the Era (and thanks, Flow, for your commentary on that! :)).

Let me go ahead and quote the Tibetan, from his first book, Initiation Human and Solar (1919) in what, for me, is "the clencher":
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"[Master Jesus] is well known in the Bible history, coming before us first as Joshua the Son of Nun, appearing again in the time of Ezra as Jeshua, taking the third initiation, as related in the book of Zechariah, as Joshua, and in the Gospel story he is known for two great sacrifices, that in which he handed over his body for the use of the Christ, and for the great renunciation which is the characteristic of the fourth initiation. As Appollonius of Tyana, he took the fifth initiation and became a Master of the Wisdom."
The line that is of real interest here is the last, although some may find it helpful to ponder the deeper signficance of what is indicated by the appearance of earlier Joshuas and Jeshuas. Even to know that The Tibetan Master himself was the Biblical Benjamin, later Gaspar of the Three Magi, is useful information. (He was also Dharmajyoti, a bhikku of Shakyamuni Buddha, Kleinias, closest pupil to Pythagoras, and Arya Asanga, the Indian Saint and great exponent of the Yogacara system.)

Anyway, to focus on this last line of information from the quote, we see clear indication - from a reliable source - as to the necessary historical placement of Jesus of Nazareth ... namely, prior to the accepted time of his birth, by a full 33 years in the very least! The line of connection is complete if we also look at the two italicized portions of the above quote, which clearly tell us that Jesus took status as a High Initiate with the Renunciation (`Crucifixion'), or 4th Initiation ... which obviously must precede the later 5th Initiation which he took as Appollonius.

The objection that Christ/Jesus might somehow be too special a figure to warrant consideration within the context of the process and stages of Esoteric Initiation which apply to all lives upon the planet - only demonstrates ignorance of this Universal tradition, based upon God's own LAW which was brought to us and provided as the means or path of attainment for every Son of God. I do not mean to be pretentious, or presumptuous here. My own familiarity and expertise is obviously going to be limited ... perhaps to a wandering stream-entrant at very best. Yet the Christ-in-me testifies to the Christ-in-you, and indeed, to the Christ-in-everyone. But of course, there is more ...

As for a few more references, let's take HPB's testimony, from H.P. Blavatsky Collected Writings (vol 9:225), which will overlap with your mention of the precession of the equinoxes, Flowperson:
"[Jesus] is a deified personification of the glorified type of the great Hierophants of the Temples, and his story, as told in the New Testament, is an allegory, assuredly containing profound esoteric truths, but still an allegory. . . . Every act of the Jesus of the New Testament, every word attributed to him, every event related of him during the three years of the mission he is said to have accomplished, rests on the programme of the Cycle of Initiation, a cycle founded on the Precession of the Equinoxes and the Signs of the Zodiac."
In an article by David Pratt, entitled "Who Was the Real Jesus" (Sept. 2001), the following background is given on `Jesus the Nazar':
"The Hebrew name for Christians has always been notzrim, and although modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the 1st century CE, the 1st-century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a continuation of the notzri movement, which had been in existence for about 150 years. In the rabbinical tradition, Jeshu ben Pandera is also called Jeshu ha-Notzri (Jesus the Nazar). The Greek equivalent of notzri is nazoraios (or nazaraios/naziraios). The stem of this word means 'to keep oneself separate' -- an indication of the ascetic nature of this sect. The early Christians conjectured that nazoraios (variously rendered Nazar/Nazarite, Nazorean or Nazarene) meant a person from Nazareth and so it was assumed that Jesus lived in Nazareth. However, the original Hebrew for Nazareth is Natzrat and a person from Nazareth is a Natzrati. The expression 'Jesus of Nazareth' is therefore a mistranslation of 'Jeshu ha-Notzri'."
I find this interesting and helpful, though not a direct reference to the date 105BC. But David then goes on to quote HPB in the next paragraph, and this information does bring us one step closer (please see original for complete documentation) ...
According to Blavatsky, the Essenes were 'the converts of Buddhist missionaries who had overrun Egypt, Greece, and even Judea at one time, since the reign of Asoka' (mid-3rd century BCE). She states that although Jesus was a pupil of the Essenes, he was not a strict Essene as he disagreed with his early teachers on several questions of formal observance.
"[T]he Nazarene Reformer, after having received his education in their [the Essenes'] dwellings in the desert, and been duly initiated into the Mysteries, preferred the free and independent life of a wandering Nazaria, and so separated or inazarenized himself from them, thus becoming a travelling Therapeute, a Nazaria, a healer."
She describes the Nazars as 'a class of Chaldean initiates' and 'kabalistic gnostics'. Regarding Jesus' mission, she writes:
"The motive of Jesus was evidently like that of Gautama-Buddha, to benefit humanity at large by producing a religious reform which should give it a religion of pure ethics . . .

In his immense and unselfish love for humanity, he considers it unjust to deprive the many of the results of the knowledge acquired by the few. This result he accordingly preaches -- the unity of a spiritual God, whose temple is within each of us, and in whom we live as He lives in us -- in spirit."
I should add, that HPB, who verily attacked "churchianity" - surely redeems herself here, if not through her voluminous other publications, in the eyes and hearts of all but the most unforgiving of persons.

The final piece of testimony regarding the good possibility that Jesus of Nazareth lived a full fivescore years before the currently accepted dates, comes from this same Soul - the Master who is usually called Master J. in deference to the honor He served in Palestine, yet Who is by His own right now one of the more advanced of the Adept Hierarchy (Brotherhood). In the book Vision of the Nazarene (by Cyril Scott), Master J. relates the following in the chapter on `Of My Life Story':
"And even those who do not discredit me and my teachings have been puzzled in their minds as to whether I was not born fivescore years prior to the date of my reputed birth.
So have the sceptical negated, and the learnéd pondered, and the seers pronounced; yet ever does my life present a mystery baffling to the brains of men."
So, the very Master whose former incarnation we are dealing with, as well as one who traveled from afar as a Seer of that same time (Gaspar) - now also an advanced Adept, both give testimony that would either corroborate, or at least suggest, the earlier date of ~105BC. HPB, who was Initiated into the Mysteries to the extent that was capable under her circumstances (and more fully later, in her next incarnation) ... not to mention trained directly under the tutelage of a small handful of arhat and Adepts in Tibet ... also points to 105 or 107BC. But if all this is not enough, we will be forced to demonstrate that Appollonius of Tyana was born a full 30 years after the date currently accepted, in order for Jesus to occupy the time period conventionaly given.

Motive has already been indicated, although I could post at even greater length to show why the church found it necessary to adjust the facts as they are. And many will say it is all of no consequence. Again, I beg to differ, but if the `Teaching of Living Ethics' which Christed Jesus sought to establish - in whatever years he lived - are what is squarely at heart in the consideration of the earnest Christian, then yes ... dates are of little import.

Can't comment on the Sirius/Dogon thing right now, but I am aware. It's for another post, since I'm out of space! :eek: (big surprise there - :p)

Love and Light,

Thanks Taijasi,

Your extensive knowledge of the linkage of Tibetan masters with the history of the middle east is new to me, but then I've never looked for it. Was Blatavsky the founder of Theosophy? That seems to have stuck in my memory somewhere.

I always enjoy reading your posts.

flowperson said:
Thanks Taijasi,

Your extensive knowledge of the linkage of Tibetan masters with the history of the middle east is new to me, but then I've never looked for it. Was Blatavsky the founder of Theosophy? That seems to have stuck in my memory somewhere.

I always enjoy reading your posts.

Thanks ... yes, Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge founded the Theosophical Society in 1875 in New York, I think. Not to be pedantic, but it is of course important to distinguish this organization from any unique claims to Theos Sophia, Divine Wisdom ... and even Ammonius Saccas (3rd Century Greek philosopher and founder of Neoplatonism), though usually being credited as the first modern Theosophist, was only adding to tradition already ancient at the time (hinted at in the reference to the Buddhist influence over the Essenens and Alexandrians).

H.P. Blavatsky, both in that incarnation and in her earlier one as Allessandro Cagliostro, has been a much maligned figure over the decades ... and accused of many, many things unjustly - including charlatanism. Certainly she was a gifted psychic, had an early interest in Spiritualism, though also some very important moral objections, and she had numerous encounters with the Eastern Mahatmas (and their chelas) dating from the earliest days of her childhood.

The latter experience is true of Alice Bailey, who wrote from 1919 to 1949 for the Tibetan Master, this being the same Adept who dictated large portions of The Secret Doctrine to HPB. Various other Adepts also had a hand in HPB's many writings, such as Master Morya (who later dictated the Agni Yoga Teachings to Helena Roerich, another Russian), Master Kuthumi (or Koot Hoomi, who we are told is a Christ-in-the-becoming, sic - i.e., the future Bohdhisattva), Master Hilarion (who is the inspirational influence behind Spiritualism, John Edward almost certainly being one of his modern disciples - right down to appearance!), Masters Serapis and Tuitit Bey (of the Brotherhood at Luxor), and `The Old Gentleman' (Master Narayan, or Nylghara, `The Rishi of the Nilgiri Hills,' who is an expert astrologer among the Mahatmas).

I could name yet more Adepts who HPB, Alice, and other Messengers knew and assisted ... such as Master R. (Rakoczy), whom Johann Strauss even memorialized in a rather famous piece of music. Another half dozen are utterly unknown even to most esotericists - although Master P., Polidorus Isurenus, is not so unknown in his incarnation as Philo Judaeus!

I can also say, that each and every one of these former sons of men have attained to the same Divine Status (if that is how the average Christian prefers to regard it) as Jesus of Nazareth ... or at least, to similar participation and place of Great Responsibility among the Adept Brotherhood. So, too, HPB was said to enter into the Mysteries as an Initiate (3rd Degree) in a male incarnation, in about 1924, or 1926, I forget. My own belief is that she currently resides in another female incarnation, but that is an opinion which I have never had corroborated. I am aware of at least half a dozen individuals, mostly women, who have either claimed to have been HPB's tulku (reincarnation), or have had this claim made about them. Thus, there is much speculation ... especially among Theosophists, and it's perhaps as much a glamorized subject as that of The Mahatmas themselves!

Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say. ;)