Predestination vs. Free Will

[cavalier]

While looking through these forums I have seen a few posts talk about free-will within Christianity, however I have never seen anybody either refute free-will, or refer to predestination.

The Christian upbringing and education I had taught that the Bible clearly states that free-will does not exist, that God predestined who would be saved and who would not, that all that has been done and all that will be done is purely to reveal the glory of God. The problem for me in this is that, if some are chosen, then some necessarily are chosen to be damned to Hell. I am inclined to say that I will not worship such a God, a God who creates life that will be tortured eternally so that his own glory will be shown more clearly.

However, just because I do not like this, does mean that is not the real state of things, consider these texts:

Romans 8:30 ..those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me...It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me..."

Ephesians 1:4 ..he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world
v.12 ..so that we...might live for the praise of his glory.


What thoughts do any of you have on this?

 

[wil]

I think we've all been called....

it is upto us to listen...

We all have the spark of G-d, of Christ, within us, the kingdom is within...it is our choice to go there.

Free will gives us the right to ignore spirit, to get kicked out of the garden, to choose our own path...to listen or not listen to that still small voice.

 

[Dondi]

*sigh*

I don't know how many times I've gotten into this kind of discussion in another forum website. I really hope this doesn't turn into a spat between freewill and predestination advocates. Things can often turn nasty.

But it is a legitimate question, and I will try to answer as best i can. I happen to be a free will advocate. But I qualify this by saying that I believe our free will is limited. I think God is in control and that He has a destined purpose for mankind in general. For example, an arbitrary perusal of the book of Revelation will indicate that something heavy will eventually come down. That there will be someday a massive change to the world in what's known as a New Heaven and a New Earth. It is God working in the macronism of the world. But I also believe that God gives a certain leeway in the micronism as individuals, particularly in the manner of the choice to worship Him or not. To violate such a choice would reduce us to automons who are compelled to do His bidding. But I don't think this is what God intended for us. For God to love us means the reciprocal risk of us rejecting that love in hopes that we would accept and return that love. If we aren't able to freely love God, then what is the point?

When in engaging in a subject such as this, it is important that we execise proper hermanetics is our exegesis of certain passages. It is instructive to learn for example, the audience the particular book is intended and to take whatever passage of scripture in context with the surrounding scriptures.

Let's take, for example, the first verse you quote:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30

This appears to be a verse about predestination, and I can see by itself it would appear so. But note that the verse begins with the word "moreover". This tells me that this a continuing discussion off the verses before it. So lets take it in context:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30

Now the idea is a bit more complete. It starts out with God's foreknowledge, that is, God knows the ones who will come to Him. But this foreknowledge is not imply causuallity, but rather foresight of the ones who will believe in Him. God knows the end from the beginning, He is the Alpha and Omega, so He knows who will choose Him, not that His has already choosen them.

BUT, now that He knows who will choose Him, these are the ones who will benefit from His plan for all who come to Him. As a collective group, His plan from the foundation of the world is to conform them into the image of Christ. He has predestined Christians as a whole to be called according to His purpose and justified and glorified. Do you see the difference here?

Back up to Romans 8:28:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

See, it is those that love God who are called according to His purpose, not the other way around.

The same principle can be applied to Ephesians 1:1-5, 12 and the following verses:

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Notice that in the introduction Paul is addressing the saints, those who have already chosen God, those who have already been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. He is talking to those who are already Christians. It is in that context that we are predestined for the adoption as children before the foundation of the world. Paul is talking about all saints presently in Ephesis. Verse 12 even says, "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." So those who first trusted in Christ, God has made the promise to them that they will be holy and without blame in love. It was God's plan since the foundation if the world for Christians for this.

I will get to John 6:44-45 in my next post.

 

[Dor]

We have free will and he knows everything....so yes he knows which of us will answer the call. He also knows which of us will not answer him. He also knows which of us will try to answer but do it in such a weird corrupted way.

 

[cavalier]

I think we've all been called....

it is upto us to listen...

We all have the spark of G-d, of Christ, within us, the kingdom is within...it is our choice to go there.

Free will gives us the right to ignore spirit, to get kicked out of the garden, to choose our own path...to listen or not listen to that still small voice.

Hey Will

This is pretty much what I believe, I'm just curious as to what you feel about those verses.

Andy

 

[Devadatta]

Here I’ll give a non-inerrantist point of view, which is bound to be at cross-purposes with what’s been said so far. So it’s only to offer another point of view, not to launch a debate that won’t have any legs.

For a non-inerrantist, citing St. Paul or this or that bible verse on predestination is not to the point. What is to the point is the pattern of treatment predestination receives across the Abrahamic tradition. In the Tanakh we have the outstanding example, among others, of God hardening the Pharoahs heart; in the Gospels the Jesus sayings claiming that some by nature do not have the “ears to hear”; in the Koran, predestination is most explicitly and repeatedly alluded to and looms large in the Islamic tradition, i.e., in the end all is the “Will of Allah”.

The root problem is a certain idea of “sacred history” (there’s a fancier name for this which unfortunately escapes me at the moment), the idea of a fairly simple, even one-to-one correspondence between our everyday bloodletting, striving & ignorance and some divine template. The essential hideousness of this idea is well characterized in King Lear, with the comparison of the gods to children pulling the wings off flies; aspects of human history are so absurd that only a sadistic god could have written the ground rules.

The idea of a limited free will, that God only foreknows but does not predetermine human choice, merely begs the question. Under this crude notion of sacred history, whether God condemns certain of his creatures to failure or merely knows that some are bound to fail is immaterial to the creatures themselves who are failing, and therefore suffering.

So for me the problem is not free will/pre-destination, but the problem of a narrow view of sacred history, tied up with the notion of inerrancy and the idea of a single narrative line that is not only anthropomorphic but tangled up with human-all-to-human social & political perspectives. If there is a sacred history, it is far grander, and far less amenable to our limited reasonings.

Again, this is only my alternate perspective, but I think it’s an error to look for spiritual comfort in these limited narratives; besides, comfort is far more available in the Kingdom immediately at hand. To approach that larger narrative, the true sacred history, I’m guessing we need to pass through a cloud of unknowing.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

 

[cavalier]

Dondi, I'm sure you're a good person, and thanks for the reply but I really don't appreciate the way that you started off your post,

*sigh*

I don't know how many times I've gotten into this kind of discussion in another forum website.

The words rude, and arrogant spring to mind. You're very correct when you say that this

is a legitimate question

It is also a question that has troubled some of the greatest theologians, so I don't really think that patronizing comments

Do you see the difference here?

are really called for.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30

Now the idea is a bit more complete. It starts out with God's foreknowledge, that is, God knows the ones who will come to Him. But this foreknowledge is not imply causuallity, but rather foresight of the ones who will believe in Him. God knows the end from the beginning, He is the Alpha and Omega, so He knows who will choose Him, not that His has already choosen them.

BUT, now that He knows who will choose Him, these are the ones who will benefit from His plan for all who come to Him. As a collective group, His plan from the foundation of the world is to conform them into the image of Christ. He has predestined Christians as a whole to be called according to His purpose and justified and glorified. Do you see the difference here?

Thankyou, yes I do see the difference there, but I do see that it necessarily refutes predestination. As for Romans 8:28,

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

See, it is those that love God who are called according to His purpose, not the other way around.

I think you've got it completely wrong, it is the other way around. The second part of the sentence, "to them who are called according to his purpose." is used to clarify exactly who the "them that love God" are.

As for Ephesians 1:1-5, 12, your reasoning just doesn't make sense

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Notice that in the introduction Paul is addressing the saints, those who have already chosen God, those who have already been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. He is talking to those who are already Christians. It is in that context that we are predestined for the adoption as children before the foundation of the world.

The text is pretty clear, Paul addresses the saints, who have been blessed according to the fact that God chose "us" before the foundation of the world.
Nowhere does it say that these people chose God. In fact, elsewhere in Romans 3:11 it is made very clear that men do not choose God'
"..there is no one who seeks God."

Finally Ephesians 1:12. Depending on what version of the Bible you have, it could read like this

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

or possibly "..who were the first to trust in/set our hope on Christ."
Either way, it means they did trusted in Christ before other people trusted in him, not before God gave them the gift of grace.

Whatever I might have written here, I am, in all honesty, looking forward to your reply

Andy

I will get to John 6:44-45 in my next post.[/quote]

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Cavalier!

Actually, this subject has come up before, some time ago, and the thread is long buried. Truth be told, I'm just being too lazy to dig it out of the vault. The subject has also been raised within the context of other threads as well.

This is one of those unanswerable questions. We go with what we *think* we know, and most likely it is not quite the same as the next person.

If G-d has, fully, the capacity to foreknow all creation, why did He create the devil? Why did He create evil? Why did He and why does He continue to create horrible people who choose to do terrible things? Why did He intentionally create His own adversary and any (let alone all!) who stand against Him?

And in the midst of it all, why does He allow repentence?

Strictly my opinion, I do think there are some few, very few, that G-d has a direct hand in leading (as in the opening of the book of Jeremiah, "I knew you in the womb"). These are special cases, these are emissaries of the Almighty. The rest of us are given the basic tools to work with and a playing ground on which to develop, and we are turned loose with free-will to choose what we will do with ourselves as a gift in return to our Creator. We will gravitate towards the One who loves us, or we won't. The choice is ours.

To imply all is predestination, is to imply there is no such thing as sin, no penalty or consequence. If you are chosen; you can rape, pillage and plunder with impunity, "'cause you're goin' t' heaven!". If you are not chosen; you can be the most saintly person to live, and "you're gonna burn in hell!" Something there just doesn't make sense. Where is the justice? Where is the balance? Why serve such an impudent god? Not to mention, everything hinges on your human perception of assumption that you are in fact one of G-d's chosen. Last I checked, G-d tagged a person on the shoulder about two thousand years ago and spoke from the heavens "this is My son, in whom I am well pleased." But He hasn't done that since. So I have no guarantees of just who is chosen and who isn't. BTW, if we go by the Good Book, the chosen are the Jews, not Christians. So if predestination is being used to support Christianity, it ain't there.

Yet, if predestination is being used to undermine Christianity, the focus needs to be adjusted. Christianity is the way for those *not* chosen to have an opportunity otherwise not available. Christianity is kinda the side door entrance, in a manner of speaking. It does not preclude Christians from the same responsibilities required of all others, it is just another path into the living room upstairs.

I think there is *some* predestination over our lives, but by far the greater exchange is that of our own free-will. G-d may well have called me, but I have to choose to listen and answer and do.

PS, I didn't really see anything arrogant or rude in Dondi's post. Exasperation, perhaps? Nevertheless, perhaps it would be well to try to overlook this for now and focus on the subject at hand, and see how it goes.

 

[Dondi]

cavalier,

I meant no disrespect. Nor was it my intent to be arrogant or rude. If it passed as such, please accpet my apologies. Those were just general statements I made to no one in particular. I'm sure that there are those on both sides of the issue can attest to what I am refering to in the debates on this subject

.

juantoo3, I'm glad you brought up the point that the Jews are the one's chosen for that is what I was going to get to in regards to John 6:44-45:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

This is of course the famous "I am the bread of life" passage. You will note that after Jesus fed the 5000, He left for the other side of the sea and they followed Jesus. When the same people sought Him out, they didn't seek Him for the works and miracles that Jesus performed, but because He had fed them. But notice what Jesus said,

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed" - John 6:27

Here it gets a bit complicated, but bear with me for a moment. You have to understand that at this point in time, before Christ died and rose again; Israel was under the covenant of God according to the promises of the Old Testament. In regards to Israel, God's promise still stands. God has Israel sealed. There will be a time in the future when Israel will return to God. The quotation in verse 45 is taken from Isaiah 54:13, but let’s look at Isaiah 54 in context as it talks about Israel:

3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left;
your descendants will dispossess nations
and settle in their desolate cities.
(Israel was scattered around the world for centuries)
4 "Do not be afraid; you will not suffer shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband—
the LORD Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6 The LORD will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected," says your God.
7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
(Israel finally reformed as a nation in 1948. This is the beginning of the major events of prophesy to come concerning Israel. God is still Israel’s Redeemer)
8 In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,"
says the LORD your Redeemer.
9 "To me this is like the days of Noah,
when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.
So now I have sworn not to be angry with you,
never to rebuke you again.
(Jesus said in Matthew 24:7, “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Only the next time, Jesus won’t bring a flood, but fire, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” – 2 Peter 3:10 )”
10 Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.
(The covenant with Israel is still intact)
11 "O afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted,
I will build you with stones of turquoise, [a]
your foundations with sapphires. [b]
12 I will make your battlements of rubies,
your gates of sparkling jewels,
and all your walls of precious stones.
13 All your sons will be taught by the LORD,
and great will be your children's peace.
14 In righteousness you will be established:
Tyranny will be far from you;
you will have nothing to fear.
Terror will be far removed;
it will not come near you.
(Jesus as Messiah will come again and establish the righteousness of Israel in the last days.)
So in context, verse 13, which Jesus quoted in John 6:45, refers to Israel. When you understand the promises of God for Israel, you will see that what Jesus is talking to are the election of Jews under the promise of Abraham. This is a different group than Christians. There is a remnant God has reserved now:

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
” – Romans 11:5-8

In Romans 9-11, which many verses here are misapplied for predestination as well, the topic is “that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” – Romans 11:25. Now is the time of the Gentiles whereby God’s grace is available to anyone who believes.

BUT THEN, after the time of the Gentiles, “…all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” – Romans 11:26-27.

 

[mee]

Jehovah has set the number of those who will go to heaven.144,000 ,he has set that number , but the individuals making up that number are not predestined, but the number is.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, mee!

Jehovah has set the number of those who will go to heaven.144,000 ,he has set that number , but the individuals making up that number are not predestined, but the number is.

Seems to me that number is drawn from the book of Revelations, and it is specific reference to members of the tribes of Israel (minus Dan) leading others through the tribulation. (This is what some mistakenly refer to as the 144,000 Jews of the tribulation, but the Jews comprise "only" 12,000. Likewise 12,000 Levites and Benjaminites, and 12,000 each of the remaining tribes of Israel.) Further, there is a innumerable sea of people surrounding the throne singing praises to the Almighty.

In the end, I choose not to pretend to know who G-d will save, and who He will not. I trust that He has a lot better handle on things than I ever could.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I don't subscribe to the notion of predestination. I don't think, though, that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive...theoretically. Your beginning and end could be entirely predestined while everything in the middle could be a complete free-for-all. But I don't buy that. I don't subscribe to the notion of whole systems either. No hierarchically arranged system can encompass absolutely all possibilities. The universe isn't perfectly ordered, rather, the illusion of order is a product of a state of near perfect chaos. But, there's always a slight wobble somewhere.

Chris

 

[cavalier]

Dondi

Apologies accepted, perhaps I should not have reacted as I did.
Perhaps now I'm laboring the point, but I want to explain my reaction. I'm still very new to this site and haven't used any other, I am completely unaware that there have been discusssions on this point before. I started the thread for help in thinking about this issue. On that score, thanks greatly for your in-depth replies, they've really helped me think about the issue.
The "*sigh* I don't know how many times..." at the beginning though made it seem like you had to really trouble yourself to give an answer.

Juantoo suggests it was exasperation, and that I should forget it. That certainly would be the easier thing to do, but I really feel that a public show of exasperation because a new member has asked a question on what for him is a completely new topic, is just wrong.

Anyway, a sincere thanks for your replies. It's an interesting point that you and juantoo make about the Jews being the ones who were chosen. I'll have to think about that a little.

Andy

 

[mee]

Kindest Regards, mee!


Seems to me that number is drawn from the book of Revelations, and it is specific reference to members of the tribes of Israel (minus Dan) leading others through the tribulation. (This is what some mistakenly refer to as the 144,000 Jews of the tribulation, but the Jews comprise "only" 12,000. Likewise 12,000 Levites and Benjaminites, and 12,000 each of the remaining tribes of Israel.) Further, there is a innumerable sea of people surrounding the throne singing praises to the Almighty.

In the end, I choose not to pretend to know who G-d will save, and who He will not. I trust that He has a lot better handle on things than I ever could.

yes as you say , 144,000 is from the book of revealation , these are the amount that will go to heaven to rule with christ Jesus, and also as you say a great crowd of others who welcome and recognize the Almighty , and his son Jesus as their king . these are the gread crowd which has no number ,and they will live on a paradise earth.
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. revealation 7;9-10

 

[Dondi]

yes as you say , 144,000 is from the book of revealation , these are the amount that will go to heaven to rule with christ Jesus, and also as you say a great crowd of others who welcome and recognize the Almighty , and his son Jesus as their king . these are the gread crowd which has no number ,and they will live on a paradise earth.
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. revealation 7;9-10

Yes, but look at where they all are standing and worshipping--before the throne of God in Heaven. So how can you say they are on the Earth?

 

[lunamoth]

I don't believe in predestination in the sense that we will end up in a certain way regardless of the choices we make. Certainly much of our destiny is shaped by factors beyond our control, where we are born, what genes we inherit, etc.. In a way we are like a sailboat. We can't control the wind, but we can decide how to set our sails.

Everything we have is a gift, and God as omniscient knows what we will do with those gifts and how it all turns out for each of us, but this is different from Him choosing our destinies for us. Without free will we would be automotons, not free to love God or each other.

2 c,
lunamoth

 

[wil]

Seems to me we are predestined to find our way back to G-d, how it all happens is free will.

We go this way and that, take the wrong path, find some vices, ignore some virtues, commit some sin, break some commandments, but eventually the house wins and we find our way back home.

(no matter how many lifetimes it takes)

 

[9Harmony]

I think we've all been called....

it is upto us to listen...

We all have the spark of G-d, of Christ, within us, the kingdom is within...it is our choice to go there.

Free will gives us the right to ignore spirit, to get kicked out of the garden, to choose our own path...to listen or not listen to that still small voice.

i agree.

on the issue of predestination, i think it's more along the lines that God knows us better than we know ourselves, so though we are not necessarily predestined for anything inparticular, God knows what our choices will be before we do.

 

[path_of_one]

That's pretty much my take on it, 9Harmony.

We're all chosen. And I do tend to think we all make it back to God somehow. This is God's stated will- that we all come to be in communion with Him. I don't see how our puny selves can really, in the end, thwart God's will for us. He's omnipotent- so His will will be done.

We can thwart this will temporarily in our lives and in broader ways on earth. But what we perceive to be so linear and neat and tidy- time marching along in one direction, with our choices and their consequences in similar progression- is clearly not so for God, whom we can't begin to understand, and isn't even founded on what we know to be the case in modern physics.

I think this debate is partially a result of our being stuck in incorrect understandings of time, space, cause-effect events, and how this might relate to an omnipotent, omniscient Being that exists outside all this (eternal and infinite- basically without placement in space-time). I've been reading some really interesting work by astrophysicists and it's dovetailing nicely with my long-held suspicions that much of our difficulties with interpreting the scriptures and the nature of the relationship between God and humanity, as well as Christ's gift of salvation, are a result of our mental limitations rather than real contradiction.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

Yes, but look at where they all are standing and worshipping--before the throne of God in Heaven. So how can you say they are on the Earth?

I believe mee was referring to the earth after the millenial rule spoken of in Isaiah and other OT prophets. This is long after Har-Meggido (Armageddon), after satan is bound for a thousand years, after the wolf sleeps with the lamb, after we beat our swords into ploughshares and do not learn war anymore, after Messiah walks among us teaching us all ("the whole world") correctly, after satan is loosed "for a little season," and after satan is ultimately destroyed along with all who follow satan instead after all that was done. This "paradise on earth" may very well not be in a physical form, that much I struggle with, it may well be in "angelic" bodies. But if I am to believe the Bible and the prophets, all I have just stated is written. The Book of Revelations only hints at it, it is OT material.