bananabrain
awkward squadnik
Re: what is islams belef on the crucifiction
i would just like to say that the idea that i often see repeated on this board that we jews possess a "corrupt" verion of the Torah is *profoundly* offensive to me and to all jews. the often quoted verse from jeremiah does *not* refer to the Torah as a whole, but to the behaviour of the royal court in the first Temple period when the people behaved wickedly and worshipped idols. and if the text is corrupt, why couldn't that verse of "evidence" itself have been corrupted?
this doctrine represents an attack on our identity which cannot be tolerated. the suggestion is that we are in error and that our errors can only be rectified by embracing the "final revelation" and the "truth". you will no doubt be aware that many cultures, not least christianity and islam, have our conversion a priority over the last few millennia, but we're still here, just as we were thousands of years ago, the only surviving culture of the ancient world. you can say what you want about us, but it doesn't make it true.
i appreciate that this is the islam board, but does that mean i can discuss matters that are offensive to muslims on the judaism board? suppose i say "the Qur'an makes false claims about the authenticity of the Torah"? is that OK? i suspect not. it is not for muslims, or christians, or anyone else to tell jews that we are mistaken or not. that is between us and G!D.
let me remind you that the truth and authenticity of the Qur'an, islam and its prophet are all axiomatic. that is to say: they are *your* opinion.
every single "proof" brought, here and elsewhere, that these things are "true", "correct", "accurate" are all based on the *opinion* of muslims, supported by evidence based on the authority of the Qur'an - so actually, you have to believe that the Qur'an is the Truth and the Word of G!D before you can take it as an authority. muslims do not admit the authority of external scrutiny to judge the Qur'an - why should we accept the authority of the Qur'an and muslims to judge the Torah?
if you are so keen on your superiority and so keen to sneer at our alleged falsehood, let's submit the Qur'an to the analysis of the so-called "objective" and "impartial" bible critics and scholars. let's see what they come up with. or is that simply not permitted? if so, why should we ourselves permit it? judaism has weathered this storm and has survived it. the Torah remains intact despite the questions and perhaps the stronger for it. i see very little evidence that muslims are prepared to permit such discussion of their holy text - if people made in public about the Qur'an similar statements to those made about the Torah, there would surely be demonstrations, riots and violence.
this doctrine is underpinned by nothing but "because we say so" writ large. you are of course at liberty to believe what you wish - there is, as it says, "no compulsion in religion" - but if you expect islam to coexist with the rest of the planet, the triumphalism will have to go.
was-salaam
bananabrain
i would just like to say that the idea that i often see repeated on this board that we jews possess a "corrupt" verion of the Torah is *profoundly* offensive to me and to all jews. the often quoted verse from jeremiah does *not* refer to the Torah as a whole, but to the behaviour of the royal court in the first Temple period when the people behaved wickedly and worshipped idols. and if the text is corrupt, why couldn't that verse of "evidence" itself have been corrupted?
this doctrine represents an attack on our identity which cannot be tolerated. the suggestion is that we are in error and that our errors can only be rectified by embracing the "final revelation" and the "truth". you will no doubt be aware that many cultures, not least christianity and islam, have our conversion a priority over the last few millennia, but we're still here, just as we were thousands of years ago, the only surviving culture of the ancient world. you can say what you want about us, but it doesn't make it true.
i appreciate that this is the islam board, but does that mean i can discuss matters that are offensive to muslims on the judaism board? suppose i say "the Qur'an makes false claims about the authenticity of the Torah"? is that OK? i suspect not. it is not for muslims, or christians, or anyone else to tell jews that we are mistaken or not. that is between us and G!D.
let me remind you that the truth and authenticity of the Qur'an, islam and its prophet are all axiomatic. that is to say: they are *your* opinion.
every single "proof" brought, here and elsewhere, that these things are "true", "correct", "accurate" are all based on the *opinion* of muslims, supported by evidence based on the authority of the Qur'an - so actually, you have to believe that the Qur'an is the Truth and the Word of G!D before you can take it as an authority. muslims do not admit the authority of external scrutiny to judge the Qur'an - why should we accept the authority of the Qur'an and muslims to judge the Torah?
if you are so keen on your superiority and so keen to sneer at our alleged falsehood, let's submit the Qur'an to the analysis of the so-called "objective" and "impartial" bible critics and scholars. let's see what they come up with. or is that simply not permitted? if so, why should we ourselves permit it? judaism has weathered this storm and has survived it. the Torah remains intact despite the questions and perhaps the stronger for it. i see very little evidence that muslims are prepared to permit such discussion of their holy text - if people made in public about the Qur'an similar statements to those made about the Torah, there would surely be demonstrations, riots and violence.
this doctrine is underpinned by nothing but "because we say so" writ large. you are of course at liberty to believe what you wish - there is, as it says, "no compulsion in religion" - but if you expect islam to coexist with the rest of the planet, the triumphalism will have to go.
was-salaam
bananabrain
