Britain and America

[cavalier]

There is also a general mindset against (in the United States) "owing" someone (I'm not talking about money). No favors, no assistance, we don't like it. On the other hand, we have a tendency as a nation to forgive, or forget a debt owed by others to us. Britian is not so quick to let go of markers.

Could you give me a couple of examples? I'm not asking to dispute, but because I don't know too much about it.

I don't think the citizens of Great Britian, for example are so cohesive in their declaration of who they are. British citizen, yes. But I'm Welsh, or I''m Scottish, or I'm English, seems to be the common identifiers.

Yeah, I'm only British if a Scottish, or Welsh guy is doing well in sport.
By comparison to the Scottish and Welsh, I think that the English are much more inclined to call themselves British. Protestants from Northern Ireland though will always call themselves British.

 

[InLove]

Texans tend to readily call themselves "Texans". I think it depends on the audience.

 

[Booko]

I live in a city which used to be considered a suburb of a big metroplex. It has, over the past couple of decades, simply melded into the whole huge thing. All around me, in other cities that have pretty much evolved in the same way, there is public transport. But our city won't approve it.

We've had similar difficulties with our public transport, always over racial issues. You hear things like "people will come here and steal our TVs!" Meaning of course, "black" people. The problem being, I've never even seen anyone on MARTA with a TV. The thieves in our town use cars just like everyone else.

There are some pretty good rail and bus systems in the U.S., but they are few and far between. I notice that in cities like New York, senior citizens (no, I don't quite qualify yet, but I l will someday, and I want to be able to get around) are more likely to be out and about on their own, because they do not have to rely on a car to get them where they are going. I would imagine that it is the same way in places like London.

Yes, well I've noticed that in the US we have no respect for older people or younger people. We only care about the ones with the ready cash. And if it isn't a problem of the middle class, it isn't a problem. Strange, considering even those with means have children and parents.

Another benefit of a good transportation system, in my opinion, is that it would help people who can't afford to get to a well-paying job because cars are so expensive, and then there is the gas to make the expensive car go....

I know that the UK has advantages in geography when it comes to public transport. Things are just closer together. But even in parts of this country where things are mighty close, we still don't have it.

Of course, we had that conspiracy between the automakers and tire companies to ruin rail in this country. That was back in the 60s, and boy did it sure work like a charm for them. The Brits seem to have been saved such silliness.

 

[Booko]

The United States American, does seem to have a decidedly more independant/stubborn streak that many take for arrogance. However, I believe that comes from ancestors driving the point home that we are born with nothing, therefore we must go out and earn our way, because no one is going to help unless they see a determined effort, and that may only be a lucky break. I'm not so certain that that is a good thing all the time...Katrina comes immediately to mind. Help was offered by people all over the world, including some of the most unlikely of countries, and we thanked them, but declined for the most part.

Excellent point. I remember hearing someone high up say, "Americans don't live in tents." Well, as opposed to what -- living with no shelter at all?

And there was the attendant furor over calling people "refugees." If it was a 3rd world country, those people would have been called refugees without a further thought. The idea that so many Americans could be so devastated and so neglected was just too much for many people to handle.

If one thinks about it, the United States comprises of 50 united nation states, under one common federal law and government, one common language, but containing 50 seperate State laws and governments, with people from all walks and nations contained therein, that differ from state to state. But we aren't really comfortable with saying, "I'm a Michigander, or a New Jersian, or New Yorker (well ok, maybe New York has no problems with it)", most of the time its "I'm from Michigan, or from Texas, or Oaklahoma, or Washington", but I'm an American, is the standard identifier.

But before the Civil War, that was the typical way to introduce yourself. State first, and the US was not so relevant unless you were talking to "foreigners."

I know the Canadians are not so tight about National identifiers. I'm not so certain about Australia, but it seams New Zealanders hold the same national identity, that Americans do.

I've never heard Canadians refer to their province as if that were more important than the nation, with the possible exception of Quebec.

I also note that United States citizens call themselves by the entirety of the continent on which they live (or are in proximity to). And it seems to be something that everyone world wide accepts and understands, even by those who live in other parts of the American continent...which I find very interesting. Last time I noted that in history was Rome...

Yeah but, how stupid does "United Statesians" sound? Yanks would even be better, though Southerners would be ticked off by that.

 

[Quahom1]

Could you give me a couple of examples? I'm not asking to dispute, but because I don't know too much about it.

Well, I suppose the $43 Billion lend/lease program to the British, Russian and Chinese nations during World War II with, the understanding before hand that the money would not be paid back, in order to avoid the same financial fiasco that occured after World War I might be a good start.

Or consider the U.S. attitude after World War II. Americans spared no weapon in the fight to vanquish Germany and Japan, even using atomic weapons against the latter. But once the war ended, Americans helped both these vanquished peoples rebuild, and today both countries are among America's staunchest allies and fiercest economic rivals.

Then there is the time that France was near economic collapse in 1956. The US sort of propped them up, until they could get on their feet. The US also rebuilt France, Germany and Indias' railway systems.

After the Asian Tsunami, in 2005, the US did provide over $500 million in aid and cash.

The United States is by far the biggest donor, supplying more than half of global food aid. In 2004, 99 percent of it was tied into food and goods, not cash. The European Union, its member countries, Australia, Canada and Japan are also major food donors. New donors like India, China and South Korea have just started donating their surplus food.

Recently, even while Kim Jong II rattles his sabre at the world (and US in particular), his people are living off of food and fuel ( averaging 700,000 and 500,000 metric tons respectively per year since 1996), given by the United States. Unfortunately, this is the first year that America has not given North Korea anything (officially).

I may be wrong, but Americans don't seem to mind giving back to the people they originated from, and don't think to ask for a return receipt...

Indeed, the only thing we won't give away, is our freedom. Right, wrong or indifferent, we value that so highly, that it is worth dying for.

v/r

Q

 

[cavalier]

Well, I suppose the $43 Billion lend/lease program to the British, Russian and Chinese nations during World War II with, the understanding before hand that the money would not be paid back, in order to avoid the same financial fiasco that occured after World War I might be a good start.

Or consider the U.S. attitude after World War II. Americans spared no weapon in the fight to vanquish Germany and Japan, even using atomic weapons against the latter. But once the war ended, Americans helped both these vanquished peoples rebuild, and today both countries are among America's staunchest allies and fiercest economic rivals.

Then there is the time that France was near economic collapse in 1956. The US sort of propped them up, until they could get on their feet. The US also rebuilt France, Germany and Indias' railway systems.

After the Asian Tsunami, in 2005, the US did provide over $500 million in aid and cash.

The United States is by far the biggest donor, supplying more than half of global food aid. In 2004, 99 percent of it was tied into food and goods, not cash. The European Union, its member countries, Australia, Canada and Japan are also major food donors. New donors like India, China and South Korea have just started donating their surplus food.

Recently, even while Kim Jong II rattles his sabre at the world (and US in particular), his people are living off of food and fuel ( averaging 700,000 and 500,000 metric tons respectively per year since 1996), given by the United States. Unfortunately, this is the first year that America has not given North Korea anything (officially).

I may be wrong, but Americans don't seem to mind giving back to the people they originated from, and don't think to ask for a return receipt...

Indeed, the only thing we won't give away, is our freedom. Right, wrong or indifferent, we value that so highly, that it is worth dying for.

v/r

Q

Yes. People seem to love to attack America then neglect to mention any of the tremendous good that your country does.

I did read an article the other day about which countries gave the most as a percentage of GDP, forget who was top but both the U.S. and U.K. were a few places down the list.

Since you mention freedom, I just wanted to ask about the phone tapping thing I've been reading about. It seems that Americans are having a few freedoms taken away from them there. Could you or anyone else shed some light for me?

 

[jiii]

originally posted by cavalier

People seem to love to attack America then neglect to mention any of the tremendous good that your country does.

It seems that Americans are having a few freedoms taken away from them there.

Well, to quote a comedian I recently saw, what people tend to dislike or attack as far as America is the "hypocrisy of our democracy". Not too many people have a case against America so far as being benevolent, but many would counter that the hand that is charitable is supplied by the hand that is, well, a little more self-interested. Yet, some might argue that such problems come with the territory.

The unfortunate aspect, so far as I see it, is that personal freedoms can really only be encroached upon from here on out. Nowadays, its a game of what can be trimmed from the list of personal freedoms without encroaching upon basic ideals of freedom...thus the recent controversy over phone taps and what not. Politicians don't really stand much of a chance of magically creating enhanced personal freedoms out of thin air, but if they aren't reforming in some way then they are out of job. Thus, they have come to focus more and more critically upon: "What of personal freedom should be specifically restricted for the good of public interest?" The concept of 'public interest' or 'public safety' has, over the last few decades, become a somewhat fuzzy term that doesn't always seem to correspond to the real public, or its actual need for safety.

 

[Snoopy]

This could go on forever, couldn't it!
Reading through: I see some comments about Americans not doing so well at preserving their (not so) old buildings as us old Brits. Well we've done a pretty good job at demolishing lots of old buildings and town centres and replacing them with identical shops, buildings and car parks. So now most towns in the UK all look the same. Marvellous. Never been to the USA and only holidayed in Italy but the Italians seem to have a better idea at maintaining civic structure. (But then I'm sure they've got other gripes).

One other point to Americans: if you come to Blighty, if you refer to your fanny pack you may get strange looks. I don't know what they are and I don't even want to ask.

 

[Snoopy]

Just read about accents in the UK

If someone lives about 10 miles from where I live then they will have a different accent. You do the maths (so to speak!)


I think a lot of Brits think Americans just eat junk food, y'know fries, coke, burgers, fatty greasy stuff (Super Size Me...)....

Brits like a lot of "ethnic-style" food, especially Indian, Chinese and Italian. Our "official" national dish is Chicken Tikka Massala, apparently invented in, no not India, but Birmingham, UK. Vegetarianism is also relatively big in the UK compared to a lot of countries that you might compare us to (eg USA and Europe), not just strict veggies but people who "replace" meat in a percentage of their meals; a growing part of the market. I remember a friend on holiday in the USA asking a waitress in a Texan restaurant what she recommended for veggies and she recommended that they leave Texas. Oh how we laughed.

Snoopy.

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

One other point to Americans: if you come to Blighty, if you refer to your fanny pack you may get strange looks. I don't know what they are and I don't even want to ask.

http://uniquepowersports.com/images/products/Fanny Pack Small.JPG

You did ask. I would've tried harder to find a picture of Snoopy wearing one, but I don't know if Charles Schulz drew one.

Phyllis Sidhe _Uaine

 

[Quahom1]

Yes. People seem to love to attack America then neglect to mention any of the tremendous good that your country does.

I did read an article the other day about which countries gave the most as a percentage of GDP, forget who was top but both the U.S. and U.K. were a few places down the list.

Since you mention freedom, I just wanted to ask about the phone tapping thing I've been reading about. It seems that Americans are having a few freedoms taken away from them there. Could you or anyone else shed some light for me?

Sorry I took so long to respond Cav, I've been occupied...

As far as the GDP vs. how much is given by the US. Well, let's see, Sweden gives a tremendous amount of it's GDP towards charity (some of the largest by far). But it is only in the millions of dollars (USD), but not saying they do not contribute their heart to folk world wide, because that is exactly what they do. They give what they can, and think nothing of it. Relatively speaking, it is awesome!

The US however, gives only a paultry three percent of it's GDP to charity, but my friend, it is in the billions of dollars (USD). Like 350 billion per annum. (mostly from civilian contributions, as opposed to compulsive govermental requirements). Compare that to China, or India, or Canada, or Great Britian. In fact, the charity level is almost exactly the same as the moneys spent on defense. (3.5% of GDP, compared to 10% during WWII). We spend nothing on defense, really.

You know, the folk about "town" seem to think that the world would be better off without the United States' existence...but I truly wonder...

And for certain, we would not exist without England, not as "These United States"...as they currently exist. (Nor without France's influence, nor Spain's, nor Africa...).

It's your collective fault. You made us. Then we took off and made ourselves. It doesn't stop with the Europeans...not by a long shot. The Irish, British, French, Spanish, Itallian, Maltese, Portugeuese, Africans, Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Malyasians, the Indians, Russians, the Arabs...

lol, You ALL made the United States colonist's citizens in their own right, every last one of you. You continue to this day. (you re-inforce the concept).

And we took it from there...I suspect there in lies the problem. We weren't supposed to take it anywhere...

But we did.

damn the bad luck, eh?

 

[Booko]

This whole thread is interesting. I would love to go visit the other side of the pond sometime. Anyone gotta couch I can crash on so I can get some firsthand experience.

We've got a sofa and an inflatable mattress in Atlanta. Best not be allergic to cats, though -- we have 4 of them.

 

[InLove]

Brits like a lot of "ethnic-style" food, especially Indian, Chinese and Italian. Our "official" national dish is Chicken Tikka Massala, apparently invented in, no not India, but Birmingham, UK. Vegetarianism is also relatively big in the UK compared to a lot of countries that you might compare us to (eg USA and Europe), not just strict veggies but people who "replace" meat in a percentage of their meals; a growing part of the market. I remember a friend on holiday in the USA asking a waitress in a Texan restaurant what she recommended for veggies and she recommended that they leave Texas. Oh how we laughed.

With the exception of Indian-style curry dishes, I didn't realize this about the Brits. I have always thought that meat was a big deal there. Your comments made me wonder--I know it has been over a half-century, but during WWII, I know that there was a severe shortage of meat in Britain. I wonder if the trend toward vegetarianism may be in part left over from that. Then, of course, there are the health issues in general along with the Mad Cow scare of recent years. And the Britain's religious mix may serve as an influence as well.

LOL--I was a fairly strict vegetarian for a few years, but in a place where cattle have been the mainstay for a couple of centuries or so, it wasn't all that easy. Things have changed a great deal in the past twenty years or thereabout, but vegetarianism is still looked upon by many as "unhealthy". Haha--forget about herbal remedies and such--just have yourself a big ol' steak! Well, you can usually get a bowl of beans, but it's likely to have a bit of bacon to flavor. And most other veggies? Fry'em if ya got'em!

Edited: The recent spinach scare hasn't helped, either. Y'all heard what Willie said about getting busted, didn't ya? Something like, "It's a good thing that I was only caught with a bag of marijuana--if it'd been spinach, I might be dead."

InPeace,
InLove

 

[flowperson]

And may G-d bless the United States of Willie !

flow....

 

[Snoopy]

With the exception of Indian-style curry dishes, I didn't realize this about the Brits. I have always thought that meat was a big deal there.

Meat is still a big deal, but relative to other countries such as USA and continental Europe I would say the UK has quite a veggie strand; about 5-10%, depending on the research. (the USA seems to be about 1-2%).

Your comments made me wonder--I know it has been over a half-century, but during WWII, I know that there was a severe shortage of meat in Britain. I wonder if the trend toward vegetarianism may be in part left over from that.

Interesting idea but I don’t think so. The (UK) Vegetarian Society was formed on 30 September 1847. Vegetarianism really started to take off in the late 70s, not in response to WW2 but a new generation concerned with issues such as nutrition, ethics, economics, the environment and animal rights.

Then, of course, there are the health issues in general along with the Mad Cow scare of recent years.

This certainly didn’t help the meat industry! This probably led to more people having a meat-reduced diet, rather than becoming strictly vegetarian.

And the Britain's religious mix may serve as an influence as well.

The UK is still by and large white, Christian or secular but the ethnic populations are obviously the providers of the food outlets.

LOL--I was a fairly strict vegetarian for a few years, but in a place where cattle have been the mainstay for a couple of centuries or so, it wasn't all that easy. Things have changed a great deal in the past twenty years or thereabout, but vegetarianism is still looked upon by many as "unhealthy".

As a vegetarian this notion to me is, well, laughable!!! (but sad as well… )

Snoopy.

 

[InLove]

As a vegetarian this notion to me is, well, laughable!!! (but sad as well… )

I know what you mean, Snoopy. I didn't mean to make you sad. Where I come from, it is just part of most people's way of life. I will never forget when I was a little kid, my granny and grandpa had a farm in Arkansas--they were farmers all their lives. They had a milk cow that I fell in love with. But they needed to sell her one year, and the people on the next farm bought her. They did not see her as a dairy cow. Oh, man--It still upsets me....guess it probably doesn't make you feel any better either.

But like I say, it is a way of life and sustenance for many people. At least the farmers I mentioned didn't mistreat the animals they took for sustenance, unlike many of the big producers.

<sigh>

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Snoopy]

Well having dairy products means one is part of a process involving cruelty (what happens to the male offspring of dairy cows, for instance). And like I've waffled on about elsewhere on this site: "To live is to kill . What are you going to do?" Yes, it's an unanswerable question!


Snoopy.

 

[InLove]

My story was kind of pathetic, wasn't it? Sorry about that. I guess it might even sound comical, but believe me, I was devastated at the time! Anyway...back "on track".....

I am going to be trying a recently restored statewide train service later today. I have never traveled this far on public transportation here. Maybe I'll check back in when I get where I am going and give a report, since we have been discussing the issue on this thread.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Snoopy]

Hey, no, not pathetic at all. Withdraw that apology immediately (or when you're able!)

Snoopy.

 

[InLove]

LOL--apology withdrawn.