Britain and America

[Quahom1]

Well having dairy products means one is part of a process involving cruelty (what happens to the male offspring of dairy cows, for instance). And like I've waffled on about elsewhere on this site: "To live is to kill . What are you going to do?" Yes, it's an unanswerable question!


Snoopy.

Nope, beef. It's what's for dinner.

 

[Snoopy]

Not in this house thanks; no dead animals on my plate

 

[Quahom1]

Not in this house thanks; no dead animals on my plate

Ah, but to me it isn't dead animals. It is protein, enzymes, nutrients and a blessing from above (and from the animals), to keep my family viable. I give back you see. I put salt and mineral blocks out, cut wheat and corn for fallow, allow tall grass for shelter, and only cull the aged or infirmed. We do not consume the young, nor the stout.

Difference of opinion I suppose.

 

[Snoopy]

Difference of opinion I suppose.

Definitely! Especially the bit about blessings.

Snoopy.

 

[flowperson]

Snoopy:

Sorry but I must congratulate Q on being diligent in carrying on a tradition of spiritual relations between the human and animal domains that have been going on for about...oh...in the neighborhood of 20,000 years or so.

The ancient peoples of the Eurasian continental plains recognized a bond between heaven and earth that was forced out of balance if they did not give spiritual and material compensation to the cosmos for allowing them to take animal spirits and bodies from time to time for the nourishment and sustenance of the community .

Beginning about 12,000 years ago these customs and rituals were continued in the New World by the Native Tribes of the Americas while the old world mostly began to rely on cultivation, although herding was also important. But the animals were customarily husbanded and cared for on a fairly personal basis until the mid 1800's. Truly blessings in this sense.

In modern terms my opinion is that Q is carrying on this ancient tradition and relationship between animal, humans, and the cosmos in updated ways as best he can. The real problem these days is that many domesticated animals are raised and taken for human use under industrialized conditions without appropriate spiritual compensations to the cosmos for their sufferings.

If they are pets then we love them and things are kept in balance close to us. But if they are part of an obscure animal processing function and we only consume them for nourishment and wear them on our feet, then this sort of bad stuff might be subtly mo-joing on us. You might call it some bad karma that has been accumulatuing for a long time now, and we somehow unconsciously experience it in negative ways. As was once said, we are what we eat, though not necessarily what we wear.

About fifteen years ago I noticed that I felt like crap for a few days after a sizeable red meat meal. So I now only eat veggies, grains, dairy, poultry, and fish.

Maybe this is a small but appropriate example of how bad karma works itself out through our lives because of such animal-based economies of scale that we invented over the years for profit and efficiency.

flow....

 

[Snoopy]

Our teeth tell us that we have evolved as omnivores: incisors to tear flesh and molars to grind vegetation but we do not have to be slaves to our evolution and past. We now know that a balanced healthy diet is possible without recourse to meat: it is not essential. Maybe if I lived where a good diet required meat or where a lack of education or information meant I was ignorant of the non-meat alternatives I could understand it. But living as I do in the UK, where a varied vegetarian diet is easy to follow and the information is readily available, I personally cannot see the point or need in breeding and killing other sentient creatures (that can feel fear and pain) for food. I think I would concur with the philosopher David Hume in that humans are part and parcel of the animal kingdom, not separate from it.

There are similarly spiritual / religious justifications for refraining from eating meat which I think are covered quite well at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

This is all a bit off topic though, so maybe it should continue (if at all!) at http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/calling-all-veggies-4793.html

Back on topic: How does this compare to the USA: last Christmas the vicar at a local church in a well populated area told my mother that he might not be opening the church on Christmas day this year as a congregation of two didn’t really make it a viable thing to do.

“Overall, figures show a 500,000 fall in typical Sunday congregations since the last comparable research in 1998.” – taken from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5349132.stm

Snoopy.

 

[17th Angel]

Differences.... From my own experience (so I guess it is most likley not all Americans.)

I find them.... "loud" Everytime on holiday or whatever, when I come across an American their voice is an invasion to the ears, talking in the loudest tone possible so all around them can hear about something "really amazing" that is happening in their life.... I ended up in Amsterdam, on a bus getting into a fight with one American because my patiences couldn't endure him and his mobile phone call.....

Americans also seem to say what they think more than us English, from comparision I would go for a meal, perhaps this meal wasn't up to my expectations, yet I would still smile and be thankful for the meal... (depends I guess hoooooow bad it truly was.) With Americans I have witnessed, the smallest thing they do not like they make sure someone knows about it. So I guess "fussy" can also come into my opinion of the americans I have met. One man I met from Texas, he found his scrambled eggs in Amsterdam too salty so he left in disgust... And he had made a mountain of food..... wasted. Just because of that factor he got loud shouting at the waitress and left.

But again this is only from my experience I haven't met ALL Americans, so I guess you get good and bad with every nation.. Alas I am yet to meet an American that doesn't rub me the wrong way.

 

[arthra]

You know it's hard to discuss because there are so many generalizations made... I think class is an issue that may separate Amercians from British but we certainly have class structure in America too...and in my view it's getting worse, that is the gap between rich and poor is greater now.

The educational systems are different as I think in America there is still an emphasis on the greatest good for the greatest number in education...but that too is being eroded in higher education which is becoming increasingly expensive and catering to well off people.

Religion is probably an important difference between America and Britain/Europe. More people seem to be religious or at least outwardly so.

It seems we have somewhat allied political systems as right wingers tend to suppport each other and our lefties do the same...

- Art

 

[17th Angel]

You know it's hard to discuss because there are so many generalizations made... I think class is an issue that may separate Amercians from British but we certainly have class structure in America too...and in my view it's getting worse, that is the gap between rich and poor is greater now.

The educational systems are different as I think in America there is still an emphasis on the greatest good for the greatest number in education...but that too is being eroded in higher education which is becoming increasingly expensive and catering to well off people.

Religion is probably an important difference between America and Britain/Europe. More people seem to be religious or at least outwardly so.

It seems we have somewhat allied political systems as right wingers tend to suppport each other and our lefties do the same...

- Art

America is very religious compared to Britain... Religion is a dying "thing" currently here on our glorious island

 

[manephelien]

As a teenager I lived for a year in the UK, but that was over 20 years ago and I'm sure the island's changed a lot since then. Little old Finland certainly has! Never been to the US, nor do I particularly want to at this time. The current political climate frankly scares the crap out of me.

The biggest difference I've noted is the way politicians are treated. Americans tend to see any attack on the President or other political institutions as something unacceptable, whereas in the UK criticizing elected officials is expected.

Americans make a big deal out of personal freedoms, and yet they arrest people without notice and keep them incommunicado indefinitely without access to a fair trial.

I accept that fighting terrorism is important, but the suspects need to be put in trial, not just held in camps indefinitely. The British Isles and many other parts of Europe have been dealing with terrorism for a long time, and with some success I might add, even though it hasn't happened overnight.

 

[wil]

... Never been to the US, nor do I particularly want to at this time. The current political climate frankly scares the crap out of me.... Americans tend to see any attack on the President or other political institutions as something unacceptable, whereas in the UK criticizing elected officials is expected.

Americans make a big deal out of personal freedoms, and yet they arrest people without notice and keep them incommunicado indefinitely without access to a fair trial.

I accept that fighting terrorism is important, but the suspects need to be put in trial, not just held in camps indefinitely. The British Isles and many other parts of Europe have been dealing with terrorism for a long time, and with some success I might add, even though it hasn't happened overnight.

This is quite interesting. Many in the US think the world view of America is just like yours...and we've created it. We also have concerns over the extent and breadth of the 'Patriot Act' (anytime we have a controversial law toss in Patriotism to insure support).

Reality is to me, it is quite safe for foriegners to visit our country, I think we have much more risk abroad due to US actions. As for political freedom of dissing those in power...no risk here, it is blatant and continual. On television, in sit coms, in op ed pieces, in cartoons and right across the street from the White House with protestors camping out. We don't have the jocularity of England in this regard...oh how I'd love a weekly public questioning in Congress and the Senate like is done to the Prime Minister across the pond.

As for unlimited incarceration, this is really limited, and if you've read me anywhere you know that I am not in favor of the war or much of our actions...but as I understand it the thinking goes...

a. the people picked up are suspected terrorists or supporting terrorists
b. they'll not be set free until they don't have a group to run back to and raise havoc with again
c. a public trial will necessitate the prosecutor giving up vital data wihich the terrorists would love to have and/or give the suspect the opportunity to spread disinformation over public airways.


I'm sure there is more reasons, and I can understand some of this reasoning, I don't like it, but it is where we currently are. I personally am fairly vocal and active and have no concerns for reprisal or being picked up off the streets...

 

[Quahom1]

Differences.... From my own experience (so I guess it is most likley not all Americans.)

I find them.... "loud" Everytime on holiday or whatever, when I come across an American their voice is an invasion to the ears, talking in the loudest tone possible so all around them can hear about something "really amazing" that is happening in their life.... I ended up in Amsterdam, on a bus getting into a fight with one American because my patiences couldn't endure him and his mobile phone call.....

Americans also seem to say what they think more than us English, from comparision I would go for a meal, perhaps this meal wasn't up to my expectations, yet I would still smile and be thankful for the meal... (depends I guess hoooooow bad it truly was.) With Americans I have witnessed, the smallest thing they do not like they make sure someone knows about it. So I guess "fussy" can also come into my opinion of the americans I have met. One man I met from Texas, he found his scrambled eggs in Amsterdam too salty so he left in disgust... And he had made a mountain of food..... wasted. Just because of that factor he got loud shouting at the waitress and left.

But again this is only from my experience I haven't met ALL Americans, so I guess you get good and bad with every nation.. Alas I am yet to meet an American that doesn't rub me the wrong way.

Want an MRE? lol

v/r

Joshua