Abortion, Hitler, the United States, and some big questions.

it is a moral issue. I would like to pinpoint in time when it became standard practice to exterminate a life..before Roe vs Wade even.. I can almost bet changing that one decision would undo a lot of other moral issues that are deemed acceptable today. Its amazing to me that people can reason in their minds that its not putting an end to a life.. or that its a lesser being because it cant thrive on its own. Im not attacking you cav.. you are getting backlash from past emotional pain though because your answer is what might have been if I had been raised with different beliefs.
 
While murder itself may be a violation of one's personal dignity, the dignity of the person killed, I think it's most valid when that person has actually set foot in this world. An unborn baby has not yet set foot in this world... A life unborn has less need for fulfillment than one that is already alive. A life that has not lived is better off than one that is already living.
I agree
 
Im not attacking you cav.. you are getting backlash from past emotional pain though because your answer is what might have been if I had been raised with different beliefs.
I don't think so. It's in our nature to consider the path not taken, especially if, like me, you're a dreamer. It does not mean that you should have taken that path, or that that path was the correct one, it is simply the one that remains unknown.
Backlash is a word much too strong for what I sometimes feel. The decision we made did not come without pain or sadness, and yes, sometimes I think on what might have been. I am always sure however that deep pain and heavy sadness is what would have been.
 
I meant you were getting emotional backlash from ME. :)
Yes, I've just re-read your words. I apologise.
I was sitting there earlier thinking to myself, "why is this person telling me how I feel?" I must learn to properly read posts before I reply to them.
 
Maybe the wrong place and it may hurt feelings but I read something this morning that just happened to be mentioned to me last night that Faithful heard on the radio so I felt obliged to share it.



"Here is something else that is worthy of note, but it may shock you!. During the time that Israel was straying away from God and taking up with idols, they were introduced to the worship of the pagan god Molech. The representation of Molech was a hollow image, in which a fire was built. It had an opening through which sacrifices were made at the time Molech was to be appeased or entreated. The sacrifices were human - in fact the sons and daughters of the worshipers! As depraved as that may appear to many, and as abhorrent as it was to The Father, a case could be made that today's slaughter of innocents may be a parallel. The name has been changed. Today's Molech is called "convenience"! 'If this child is inconvenient, do away with him! After all, it is legal, and since it is a matter of choice for his mother, it must be moral!' From a devotional by Roy Dettwiler.
 
yeah even more disturbing.. the infants would burn in the stomach of the statue we mimic that by burning the fetus with saline solution.. The caananites would sacrifice the babies to the god of prosperity because they wanted material wealth.. we abort the children because we cant afford children and its inconvenient to have them when we arent ready.. They didnt consider the babies to be real children and we have the argument that fetus's arent real children..

the similarities in the cultures is very disturbing to me... we are supposed to learn from history and yet we are reliving it..
 
"Here is something else that is worthy of note, but it may shock you!. During the time that Israel was straying away from God and taking up with idols, they were introduced to the worship of the pagan god Molech. The representation of Molech was a hollow image, in which a fire was built. It had an opening through which sacrifices were made at the time Molech was to be appeased or entreated. The sacrifices were human - in fact the sons and daughters of the worshipers! As depraved as that may appear to many, and as abhorrent as it was to The Father, a case could be made that today's slaughter of innocents may be a parallel. The name has been changed. Today's Molech is called "convenience"! 'If this child is inconvenient, do away with him! After all, it is legal, and since it is a matter of choice for his mother, it must be moral!' From a devotional by Roy Dettwiler.
No, it's not the same. Put very simply, and a lot more crudely than I would like; there is a huge difference between burning things to feed a fire, and having a fire to burn unwanted things.

Anyone who thinks the issue of abortion is as simple as to be described as a mere choice of convenience has no idea what they are talking about.
 
Just to be technical...

What is this about burning with saline? Assuming that there is not some bizarre thing that I don't know about, saline is a physiological solution meaning that you can store biologicals in them without damage, deformity, etc. It's what's in eye drops, it's what's in IV's when meds aren't there, etc. etc.
 
sara[h]ng;82288 said:
Just to be technical...

What is this about burning with saline? Assuming that there is not some bizarre thing that I don't know about, saline is a physiological solution meaning that you can store biologicals in them without damage, deformity, etc. It's what's in eye drops, it's what's in IV's when meds aren't there, etc. etc.

Have you ever poured salt on a slug? saline is salt.. its not only a preservative its also corrosive. It has the same effect.
 
Anyone who thinks the issue of abortion is as simple as to be described as a mere choice of convenience has no idea what they are talking about.

Sorry Cavalier but these were your words

So, we found out that she was pregnant. Our decision to abort was quick, not easy, but quick. Was the decision taken, as Thomas suggested, to rid ourselves of an inconvenience? Well, yes. It's crudely put, but yes it's true. That was only part of the decision though, we also thought about what was best for the child.

Im trying very hard to stay calm about this subject but how can killing the child before it has a chance to live... be whats best for the child??

You say you may not have wanted the baby or the mother didnt .. but you totally discount the pure biological experience parents have that we consider the parent/child bond.. you see the same thing in animals.. what do you think it is that causes a mothers breasts to leak when she hears her baby cry.. its not just emotional its physiological.. Ask any parent they will tell you the same thing.
 
Originally Posted by cavalier

Anyone who thinks the issue of abortion is as simple as to be described as a mere choice of convenience has no idea what they are talking about.

Sorry Cavalier but these were your words
really?

cavalier said:
So, we found out that she was pregnant. Our decision to abort was quick, not easy, but quick. Was the decision taken, as Thomas suggested, to rid ourselves of an inconvenience? Well, yes. It's crudely put, but yes it's true. That was only part of the decision though, we also thought about what was best for the child.
Hey, it seems you were right. Except for two things, 1. I was referring to our choice to abort, not to the issue of abortion. 2. See the part highlighted in red.

I ask you to please refrain from misrepresenting me in this way. I wrote about one case, not about the entire issue. Even when writing about that one case I made it very clear that it was not merely a choice of convenience.



Faithfulservant said:
Im trying very hard to stay calm about this subject
You're not the only one.
Faithfulservant said:
but how can killing the child before it has a chance to live... be whats best for the child??
I refer you to my original post, you may not agree with this, but this is what I believe
cavalier said:
We would not have been the only ones to pay a price for our stupidity, our child would have also paid. It would have been born into surroundings where it would have been less than 100% wanted, it would have been the cause of anger, disappointment, hostility, and heartache. I don't believe that we would have been right to bring a life into such a circumstance.
Yes, there are a huge number of cases where a baby originally unwanted becomes the best thing that ever happened to its parents. There are also a huge number of cases where an unwanted baby remains an unwanted baby and has a desperately unhappy childhood.

For you the right choice was definitely to have the baby, but ours are different cases, we are different. Your faith gave you a strength to pursue one course of action. It was a course of action that was right for you. It would not have been for us.

Too many children are born into desperately unhappy lives. I'll go to hell before I choose for that to happen to another.
 
Cav...Having gone through a similar situation myself many years ago I must agree with you on this one. It's a terrible choice forced upon us by the conveniences of medical technology that now exist, and I fear that many will be increasingly placed into situations in the future where they will have to make unexpected life-death decisions of many kinds.

flow....:eek:
 
I think its a case of having a god-complex.. who is anyone to decide if a child would rather live and be unhappy than die and never have a chance to live... people dont OWN children like a dog that can be euthanized because they dont have time for it anymore.. Unhappy children at least have a chance to grow up and be happy people with families who love them.. Dead children are just dead with no voice. yay for pro-choicers.. huh... some choice the child has.

I firmly believe that one day everyone is going to stand in front of the Judge of us all and have to make an accounting for what they did in life and I cant help but wonder what that child would say to the parents who made that choice...

probably I forgive you
 
I think its a case of having a god-complex.. who is anyone to decide if a child would rather live and be unhappy than die and never have a chance to live... people dont OWN children like a dog that can be euthanized because they dont have time for it anymore.. Unhappy children at least have a chance to grow up and be happy people with families who love them.. Dead children are just dead with no voice. yay for pro-choicers.. huh... some choice the child has.

I firmly believe that one day everyone is going to stand in front of the Judge of us all and have to make an accounting for what they did in life and I cant help but wonder what that child would say to the parents who made that choice...

probably I forgive you
Or more likely, nothing at all. There was no child.
 
I've kind of thought about writing this for awhile and I wasn't sure I wanted to get into it, but here we go. I think this is a unique perspective on the issue.

I get a newsletter every few months from Edgar Cayce's ARE (Association for Research and Enlightenment). One of the sections in this newsletter is one where people write in and ask questions about the readings; what they mean, if there are any readings on a specific topic, or what have you. A few months ago, someone wrote in and asked what Cayce did say or would have said about abortion. One of the things that Cayce specifically said was that the time of the soul's entry into the body was usually either a few hours before or a few hours after birth - though it was possible to go in much earlier or as much as four years later (interesting thought!). However, anytime at, before or after conception, there may be one or more souls hanging around and evaluating the conditions that an incarnation at this time, with these parents, etc. would offer.

There was a case (I don't quite remember the specifics and I can't find the newsletter, so forgive my liberty with the facts) where a woman, early in her pregnancy, decided that an abortion was the best option, but at the same time, she didn't want to do it if it was a horrible thing to do to the child/soul. I don't remember if it was a rape case or she was ill or what - but it was a valid reason to want an abortion (though to insert my personal opinion, the acquisition of any unwanted early pregnancy is a valid reason to want an abortion). So anyway, this woman was advised to pray and to meditate in an attempt to communicate with the soul that intended to incarnate through her, and let the soul know that she had nothing against it, there was nothing wrong with it, but that the time was simply not right. Following these things, she had a natural miscarriage. If I remember correctly, when she became pregnant again years later, married and all of that, it was that soul that came back to her.

Sounds pretty slick to me. People would probably consider me to be callous about the issue of abortion, but I do not place priority in the physical. I do believe that Cayce was correct and that the soul does not go into the body until late and so until then, it's a hunk of the mother's flesh. But let's say that that's wrong. Say when you abort, you kill a baby and break the physical-spiritual bond, releasing the soul. Where does the soul go? I would say that it is then free again to incarnate into another body as it chooses. The soul hit a dead end. Who cares? There are plenty of other roads.

The question for me is, ideally, one would want to try to contact the soul and go about things spiritually, naturally, with consideration, etc. But is that really necessary? Is the pill in some way offensive to the soul? Well, it seems to me that if the intention to do the incoming soul good, whether by birthing it no matter the unfortunate circumstances it might come into, or by guarding it against those, I think the soul (and God!) will know and understand that you are trying to make the best choice.
 
are you 110% sure of that?? who can be other than God..

But if that makes you feel better than Im not going to beat you up about it..

on another note.. they have released documentation in light of the bill being passed in legislation regarding partial birth abortion.. the tests conclude that 20 weeks and later the babies or fetus whatever you want to call it.. it feels pain. This becomes more than personal.. it becomes me and others like me saying this is inhumane and it needs to stop NOW. We treat unwanted pets better than we treat our unborn children.
 
interesting story Sarah.. the caananites that worshipped dagoth or molech they believed that the soul of the baby they sacrificed would come back into the next child they had...

no accountability in that reasoning... where is the accountablity.. there is none. We live in an age where everyone tries to pass the buck and deny any personal responsibility for anything. Its tragic.
 
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