Abortion, Hitler, the United States, and some big questions.

Faithfulservant said:
are you 110% sure of that?? who can be other than God..

But if that makes you feel better than Im not going to beat you up about it..

on another note.. they have released documentation in light of the bill being passed in legislation regarding partial birth abortion.. the tests conclude that 20 weeks and later the babies or fetus whatever you want to call it.. it feels pain. This becomes more than personal.. it becomes me and others like me saying this is inhumane and it needs to stop NOW. We treat unwanted pets better than we treat our unborn children.
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It is not a matter of feeling better about it. That implies that there is something to feel bad about in the first place. It's true that Cayce was not a prophet on the level of Jesus or Mohammed, but then again, I don't recall Jesus ever saying that using RU-428 is a sin. Murder, yes, but define murder. Is partial birth abortion murder? Is abortion at 8 weeks? 6? 4? The death of a ball of 4 cells? Is the prevention of implantation of a fertilized egg? Is the accumulation of fertilized eggs in the freezers of fertility clinics? Is the disposal of said eggs? What about birth control?

Does God judge when you cannot know right or wrong but you think long and hard and do your best?

As for feeling pain, that is no indication of humanity. Plants can be said to feel pain. Animals feel it. And I doubt you have qualms about inflicting it on those categories of life. So, pain is not the issue at hand. It is, at what point in development does the fusion of two cells become human? And unfortunately for all in the debate, there is no way to prove when that happens, there are only opinions. Which brings me back to the idea that every person, that must make such a decision, needs to analyze the facts for him or herself and arrive at what they believe to be the most humane option.
 
Faithfulservant said:
interesting story Sarah.. the caananites that worshipped dagoth or molech they believed that the soul of the baby they sacrificed would come back into the next child they had...

no accountability in that reasoning... where is the accountablity.. there is none. We live in an age where everyone tries to pass the buck and deny any personal responsibility for anything. Its tragic.
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Recognize that history is written by the winners of wars. Maybe the Canaanites were real nasty people and maybe they weren't. But I would suspect that whatever we might know about them today is heavily biased to put them in a bad light.

It is an interesting thing. We all know about the hideous sacrifices to the Aztec gods. The Aztecs themselves were simply following their religious texts and philosophies to the letter and they thought that they were doing the right thing. If you go back and read those texts, they often sound very similar to things that other religions say. I don't have time to go dig up some quotes now, but they promote the sacrifice of the body for higher ideals. Not literal sacrifice, but rather, that the ignoring of the desires of the body is the way to greater spirituality. Using this example, we already saw how the Aztecs could mistakenly misunderstand their own lofty ideals and pervert them into something ugly. Additionally, say that Cortez never landed on the coast and say that like the Mayans, instead some disease or something had happened to the Aztecs, they were all wiped out, and all we had to understand who they were as a people, was those religious texts. We too might draw from them that they were a bloody people - or we might have understood the texts as they were meant to be understood, and think they were like anyone else.

The point is, so many things can go awry though the intentions may be the best. Can anyone judge where and when things went wrong and then fault someone else who wasn't clever enough to see it?

As for accountability, that's simply not true. The woman did her best to make the best choice. That she used paths that you would not have, or that she arrived at a conclusion different than yours, does not make either of you wrong.
 
Sara:

If you haven't already you should check out a book written around the late 80's that examines the extensive history of the Mayan people and their environments, titled , A Forest Of Kings.

Then go see Apocalypto by Mel Gibson which is coming out soon. Early reports are that it is a stupendous film, and that it shows the brutality of the Mayans in vivid and stark reality. Mostly indigenous actors were employed for the major roles. I don't go to the movies much, so we'll want a full report from you at some later date.

flow....:cool:
 
flowperson said:
Sara:

If you haven't already you should check out a book written around the late 80's that examines the extensive history of the Mayan people and their environments, titled , A Forest Of Kings.

Then go see Apocalypto by Mel Gibson which is coming out soon. Early reports are that it is a stupendous film, and that it shows the brutality of the Mayans in vivid and stark reality. Mostly indigenous actors were employed for the major roles. I don't go to the movies much, so we'll want a full report from you at some later date.

flow....:cool:
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Hey great timing. I'm really into books like that and was thinking just yesterday about going in and talking to my Anthropology prof for some recommendations. Thanks! :D

And yeah, I've heard a little bit about Apocalypto. One thing I heard was that the whole thing is in that Mayan language that I can't remember the name of and which just so happens to be a dead one. Quite a bit of extra work for those actors. Hope it's good! Btw, do you care if the report's formal? Cause I really hate MLA bullsh....

:p
 
sorry sarah its really useless for us to discuss this issue.. I cant reason with your beliefs and you cant reason with mine.. so we just agree to disagree..

You dont believe in my bible and I dont believe that human suffering equals to mowing the lawn..

Good luck
 
I wonder who would be judged more harshly at the pearly gates...

The woman who couldn't properly care for her child and aborted...

Or the leaders that send troops thousands of miles to their deaths and in the process kill hundreds of thousands of innocents and leave a country in complete dissarray...but at least those leaders appoint pro-life judges...

It is all quite complicated, none of it cut and dry on either side. And truly upto none of us to judge...we've all got our own logs...
 
Sara:

I ran across this article in the LA Times today and thought that you might wish to take it into account when you report to us on apocalypto.

flow....:)

In 'Apocalypto,' fact and fiction play hide and seek - Los Angeles Times

Faithful...seriously...I have had days when mowing the lawn defined human suffering for me. In the film, Lawnmower Man, the man in question was named Job. Suffering !

flow....:cool:
 
Faithfulservant said:
sorry sarah its really useless for us to discuss this issue.. I cant reason with your beliefs and you cant reason with mine.. so we just agree to disagree..

You dont believe in my bible and I dont believe that human suffering equals to mowing the lawn..

Good luck
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I will not agree to disagree in this instance. I consider your previous comment to be rude for two reasons. One, never yet have I disrespected your beliefs or not made an effort to understand where you are coming from. If you recall, I said that neither you nor a woman who has had an abortion is 'wrong', but that the two actions are just different conclusions to the same caring thoughts. What I have done, is disagree, and that is my right, particularly on a 'comparative religion' forum. I am offended partly because that indeed, I am disagreeing with you, you imply that I'm both ungodly and immune to human suffering - and partly because I don't feel like you have read my responses and given them the same respect that I have given yours - even if it's a disagreement.

I believe that I have made some very practical points in regards to when a human becomes a human and the impossibility of black-and-white legislation. The thing that maybe bugs me the most is that because of your lack of response on this specific issue (when is a human a human?) I have to assume that you don't have an answer for it, which means that while this is truly a gray area for you (as I think it is for anyone who really thinks about it), you are very enthusiastic about degrading others who look at this gray area and maybe see a shade different than you do.
 
there is no gray area murder is murder..

have a nice day sarah no disrespect intended... we are just totally different people.
 
Faithfulservant said:
They werent always like that though.. noone is born wanting to kill people its learned and like anything if its done often enough you develop a callous for it.
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I can't believe that... We are an animal... All animals kill... To live. Unlike the other animals, we've made it our specialty killing our own kind.. :) A self destructive animal that will not quit until it has brought on it's own extintion.
 
I believe that the late Robert Oppenheimer said it best when the first nuclear explosion (trinity) occurred at Alamagordo, New Mexico in 1945, "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." This is from the Baghadavita (sp?) if I'm not mistaken. So 17th, I guess I will agree with you on this one also.

flow....:eek:
 
flowperson said:
I believe that the late Robert Oppenheimer said it best when the first nuclear explosion (trinity) occurred at Alamagordo, New Mexico in 1945, "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." This is from the Baghadavita (sp?) if I'm not mistaken. So 17th, I guess I will agree with you on this one also.

flow....:eek:
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Indeeeeed! You also spelt Baghadavita correctly. :D
 
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