Abortion, Hitler, the United States, and some big questions.

[Dor]

Do I value the life of a teenager or grown woman more than a bunch of cells which could potentially develop into a human being? You betcha!

So who decides when a human being becomes valuable.....you?
Of course are you going to decide when they become unvaluable again?

As long as a fetus can't survive on its own, even in modern pediatric ICU wards, it's a fetus, not a child

Well actually if I leave for a while, my 4 yr old would not survive on his own so I can actually just not count him yet right?

 

[Dor]

Oh yeah by the way.

Welcome to CR manephelien.

 

[kiwimac]

The needs of the Actual human being, the one that is pregnant must count over the needs of the potential human being, the foetus.

 

[Quahom1]

The needs of the Actual human being, the one that is pregnant must count over the needs of the potential human being, the foetus.

Apparently as of today at 10:01 AM, the Supreme Court of the United States disagreed. They will hear a second case concerning Partial Birth Abortion.

The response from the ACLU and affiliates was blistering, waylaid, and conceding (they lost the case). However, in their press release, the ACLU also compared the majority of Americans who agreed with the Supreme Court's ruling as the same as Iranian Ayatholla's (fanatical religious dictators). There is definitely a disconnect and a division between Americans, with little gray area.

 

[kiwimac]

With the US's continuing drift to the right, is such a decision really so surprising?

Kiwimac

 

[manephelien]

So who decides when a human being becomes valuable.....you?
Of course are you going to decide when they become unvaluable again?


Well actually if I leave for a while, my 4 yr old would not survive on his own so I can actually just not count him yet right?

No, I didn't mean that and I didn't say that. Of course a four year old child is a human being, so is a newborn baby, and killing either on purpose is homicide. A 12-week fetus cannot survive unless it is attached to the mother by the umbilical cord. The smallest babies to survive have been born at about 25 weeks, weighing a pound. In many parts of Scandinavia, abortions are very easily obtainable during the first trimester, after that, basically only if the mother's life is in danger, or if the fetus is unviable. Such as was the case with my aunt, she needed an abortion when the ultasound scan showed that the fetus she was carrying didn't have a full cranium, just some bones in the face. Passage through the birth canal would have killed this baby, and the first knock on the head would have killed him or her too, if the birth had been by c-section.

I don't support partial birth abortions, and would have no qualms banning them after, say, 20 weeks. A woman should know by then whether she wants the baby or not, and any medical conditions should in most cases be evident by then as well. Perhaps some medical reasons might be found, but they would have to be very exceptional.

Besides, I think that only the woman involved and her doctors should have any say in abortions. As long as men can't carry children to term, they have absolutely no say in the matter. The woman will have to live with her decision, no matter which it is, for the rest of her life. That said, a father should be given the option of resigning all his current and future rights to a baby, entitling him to opt out of child support payments.

Thanks for the welcome, Dor. I think we may have several very interesting discussions.

 

[wil]

Interesting concept on the four year olds...when my wife was doing her thesis for American Decorative Arts she did it on the changes in children's furniture over the years.

Not to very long ago children didn't get a lot of furniture...we didn't know how long they were going to live. Mothers were told don't get attached to them, up till five-six years old, this was risky times for kids...and often they did not make it. So they were really just a pain until they could start fending for themselves and be useful around the house in doing chores. Then of course when they got old enough you could farm them out, or put them to work in your fields, or sell them as indentured servants, and get some of your investment back.

Abortion then was truly rude, (I think Partial Birth Abortion definitely deserves its time in court.)

So largely this discussion is due to our economic and medical growth in this nation and the world. Kids normally live, and we treat them completely differently...but its only been a hundred years....

 

[Quahom1]

With the US's continuing drift to the right, is such a decision really so surprising?

Kiwimac

Maybe it is because we are sick of the thought of over 10,000,000 dead babies. Maybe, it is because the US is continuing to drift away from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, to the right of left (not right of center). I don't know.

In the political world here, there is no real center, but in the real world where people live, there is.

 

[Dor]

Besides, I think that only the woman involved and her doctors should have any say in abortions. As long as men can't carry children to term, they have absolutely no say in the matter.

Sorry I have to disagree with that also. Trust me as a man who had no say so in the act, 21yrs later I still wonder what my son would be like. So do not think it ever just effects the woman thats completely wrong.

 

[manephelien]

Maybe I haven't given men enough credit, and I count it as a credit to you that you still wonder what your son would have been like. So I admit I was a bit too harsh in saying "absolutely no say," but I still think that the woman should have the final say. So a guy can voice his opinion, but it's not his choice to make.

 

[Quahom1]

Maybe I haven't given men enough credit, and I count it as a credit to you that you still wonder what your son would have been like. So I admit I was a bit too harsh in saying "absolutely no say," but I still think that the woman should have the final say. So a guy can voice his opinion, but it's not his choice to make.

Ironically. Sarah laughed, yet God provided. The result was Issac...which means "ironic laughter".

If my spouse were to announce she would abort my child...you can best bet there would be a trial. You can also best bet that I would bankrupt my home, in order to insure that child had half a chance of surviving an abortion attempt.

The woman has the final say in keeping her legs closed to amorous actions of males (I will not argue rape or incest, since I agree, sadly).

edit: ...even if the child were not genetically mine...

 

[Saltmeister]

As long as men can't carry children to term, they have absolutely no say in the matter. The woman will have to live with her decision, no matter which it is, for the rest of her life. That said, a father should be given the option of resigning all his current and future rights to a baby, entitling him to opt out of child support payments.

I'm not one of the people saying abortion should be illegal, but if I do want to have an influence on how the legal system treats women, it would be to make life easier for them (ie. make abortion legal).

I'd like you to know that if I wanted to have an influence on how the legal systems changes on this issue, it's got nothing to do with power, ego or "men protecting women." This is about my personal dignity. It would be about letting women know that we do appreciate the things they have done for us. I would recoil from the idea that women somehow thought we didn't appreciate the pains they went through in childbirth and bringing up children, that somehow they thought men were selfish, arrogant and didn't appreciate what women did.

But what I want to say is that we do appreciate what you do. We needed you. You were there for us. We value what you do. What you do is important to us. You are important to us. Maybe we can't thank you enough.

If any of us want to help you by making abortion legal (or keeping it legal) it's because we appreciate that childbirth makes life hard for a woman. It would not be about "men protecting women" (not condescending) but "men appreciating women" (recognition).

Maybe I haven't given men enough credit, and I count it as a credit to you that you still wonder what your son would have been like. So I admit I was a bit too harsh in saying "absolutely no say," but I still think that the woman should have the final say. So a guy can voice his opinion, but it's not his choice to make.

No sorry, it's the other way round. We want to give you credit. You bled for us, but we weren't able to bleed for you because we had nothing to bleed. Childbirth takes courage. Abortion also takes courage.

In the end a decision has to be made . . .

Even if we don't understand, we at least appreciate (or strive to). Appreciating is hard to do, but we strive with all our heart and soul to do it -- to comprehend what someone else has done for us.

What I'd like to say is that I'm sorry that I'm a man and that you're a woman. I didn't choose my sex. Maybe this is one of the ironies that God has embedded in His creation -- where the woman outdoes the man, even though manhood in theory symbolises strength. Maybe that's the thing about women complementing (completing not praising) men.

There are some things a woman will experience, see or hear that a man will not. That, I guess, is something to regret from being born male. I don't get to go through the stuff you do. Not that you enjoy it. It's just honourable. See it as something to be proud of!!!

 

[Francis king]

well, the title of the post was quite reactionary, wasn't it?

My personal opinion is that we should sterilise everybody at birth, and then wait until ppl were deemed worthy of having children, and then they could have their sterilisations reversed. If you lived on a council estate and were on heroin, or had a IQ less than 90, u wouldn't get the operation. Same too if u had certain disabilities which would definately be passed onto ur children and seriously adversely impact on their quality of life. Cleft palates we can fix, spina bifida with hydrocaephalus we can't. Yes, it seems harsh, but in truth eugenics benefits everybody. Within a few generations we could eradicate a whole lot of nasty conditions, and if we don't have sick ppl, we don't have any of the costs associated with caring for these sick ppl either.

As you can probably tell, I am in favour of abortion. That does not mean that I am in favour of late abortions (beyond 22 weeks) as 22 weeks is five and a half months, and no matter what anyone says, thats a pretty big baby, and babies who are born premature can survive at this stage. Thankfully, delving into a womans womb and slicing and ripping a baby apart limb by limb and sucking the pieces out with a vaccuum cleaner just because they can't be bothered to be mothers doesn't happen very often, and thats usually because women do not decide to terminate the life of their child because it clashes with an important society function, or because she can't be bothered to "pay" for her sexual encounters. She does it because she feels she has to, for whatever reason, and we cannot tell her that her reasons are invalid, because we do not live her life for her. Funnily enough, society considers abortion distasteful, and ppl do not have abortions because they are an acceptable form of birth control, because it is not, nor will it ever be, and even peasant women understand this. It is better to have 10 ugly peasant children and not be able to feed and clothe them properly than it is to have an abortion, even today, even in the most dire of circumstances...

Quahom... if only all men were as stubborn as u, hey? U would bankrupt ur self and sell ur home to prevent ur wife having a termination... I can't imagine lying there, screaming in agony for 2 days, delivering a baby I didnt want and could not look after just because my husband and a judge had decided that I did not have the right. I would throw myself down the stairs or drink gin and buy a pack of knitting needles first. Most likely I would commit suicide, and take my child with me, rather than allow it to be grown in a home like I imagine urs to be...

As for babies not surviving past 25 weeks. That is tosh. Currently in the UK, where our polititians do not try to appease the christian right, we are considering lowering the maximum time limit on abortion because we realise that premature babies can survive at this stage. Below 22 weeks, the medics reckon a child has little chance to survive without medical intervention. After 22 weeks, and with the help of a good neonatal ICU, there is a good chance the child will survive.

to prevent the need for abortion, that would be a good thing. To stop filling young childrens' heads with sexual images, to stop them thinking that losing their virginity made them adults, would be a good thing. To stop pretending ppl didnt have sex without being married, would be a good thing. To give out free contraceptives to all ppl who wanted them would be a good thing. To educate children would be a good thing. And guess what? In civilised countries like the UK, this already happens, and ppl still have abortions, although most of those would-be abortions are never needed, because ppl are educated enough to get themselves down to the family planning clinic and take the "morning after" pill...

 

[cavalier]

I don't think anyone has yet related a personal experience, so here goes.

Several years ago my then time girlfriend and I decided to abort our baby. It was very early on in the pregnancy so technically it wouldn't have actually been a baby, but I would agree with Thomas that the question of when a foetus becomes an individual is unimportant. The intention, as he pointed out, is to stop life, that was our intention.

The conception was a mistake, I'm not going to go into details, but just say that we both made assumptions that turned out to be incorrect. We were stupid and we were reckless. To touch on China Cat's point, would better sex-education have prevented it? Yes, I think it would.

So, we found out that she was pregnant. Our decision to abort was quick, not easy, but quick. Was the decision taken, as Thomas suggested, to rid ourselves of an inconvenience? Well, yes. It's crudely put, but yes it's true. That was only part of the decision though, we also thought about what was best for the child.

We had been together for only a few weeks, we always knew our relationship would be short lived as we were both about to leave England for new lives in different countries, countries half a world apart. The simple truth is that we didn't want the child.

Some people believe we should have had it anyway, we had had our fun and should accept the consequences. I understand the point, but when the "consequence" is a child, an actual living, breathing human being, I don't think it's that simple. We would not have been the only ones to pay a price for our stupidity, our child would have also paid. It would have been born into surroundings where it would have been less than 100% wanted, it would have been the cause of anger, disappointment, hostility, and heartache. I don't believe that we would have been right to bring a life into such a circumstance.

Maybe other people in our situation could have had the baby, loved it and lived happily, maybe we could have at a different stage in our lives. The simple truth is that, at that time, we could not.

A baby should not be a punishment, or a concequence you have to deal with. It should be whole-heartedly wanted and loved, sadly ours would not have been.

 

[juantoo3]

Just wanted to say, thanks for the heartfelt response, Cav. I feel for you and this young woman.

 

[Dor]

Yes Cav. Thanks for that heartfelt response. Just one question. Ever hear of adoption? There are plenty of able and willing bodies that pray daily for a child.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Let me post another version of Cavs story.. I was 18 and a senior in HS.. uneducated on how to take birth control pills got pregnant in a relationship a month old.. Went to planned parenthood for a pregnancy test in which they pushed me to have an abortion..they were a free service btw and this is how many young girls are treated when they go in.. they were telling me that there are so many unwanted children and giving me statistics on early parenthood leading to poverty... not taking no for an answer.. I finally said.. listen Im a Christian and I wont murder my baby.. so then I tell the father of the baby who said he wanted me to have an abortion.. he wasnt ready to be a father and it wasnt fair to the baby to bring it into a world like that.. I said NO.. I would raise the baby myself.. he then told me to put the baby up for adoption.. I said NO.. I will admit Im too selfish to do something like that.. SO I had the baby.. the father stuck around till the birth then took off.. I never asked for child support and I never will...


This is my daughter Jackie shes almost 15 yo.. shes on the honor roll in HS.. She is extremely intelligent and kind and beautiful and one of the most important people in my life..Im not going to say it was easy or there werent tribulations.. but dear God.. is anything in your life worth a damn that was easy?

 

[InLove]

Hi All--

Been mulling this thread over and finally decided to post.

I'd like to add that I think along with a certain amount of public education and improved adoption processes, it's the attitude in our homes that can help tremendously. I know too many women who have had abortions in their teen years at the behest of their own parents, many of whom would publicly denounce the act. Understandably, this has left these women (as well as the young fathers) with lifelong emotional scars.

That said, I also know from experience that we as parents can only do our best to let our children know that we love them even when they make big "mistakes". Personally, I struggled with my own thinking in regard to offering birth control to my daughters. I was afraid that if I made it available, it might send the wrong message and even lead them to promiscuity. I was not just concerned with unplanned pregnancy, but even more so with life-threatening illnesses that can result from irresponsible intimacy. I ultimately decided to make it very clear that, while I believed the best thing to do was wait until marriage, if they decided not to do so, I would make sure they legally had proper birth control. I am, after all, realistic about these things. But even though I reminded them on a regular basis...well...I will leave the rest of my story there, except to say that both my girls have established families, and I am pretty young to have five beautiful grandchildren.

Abortion is a tough issue. I think it is really an issue that should be between a woman, a man, and even though this is on the politics board, I am going to say "God", or for those who don't interpret things this way, perhaps the "Higher Consciousness" or "Source of Being" or simply "Love" (I'm trying). And while I want to believe that we cannot and should not legislate morality, we do and must in some areas. But in a democracy, unless the majority of people say so in a fair voting process, the government should not dictate family planning. To me, personally, it is a sad thing, but necessary if we are to avoid a theocracy. And individually, I see much harm in the hostile condemnation of those facing dire circumstances which we may not have the ability to comprehend.

Oh, and your daughter is lovely, FFS--I can relate to your story. And cav, even though I have not experienced what you have, I know that we are all humans, struggling with our situations, so thank you for sharing, too. And Francis, please forgive me, but for what it's worth to you, I think perhaps your imagination is running amuck in regard to how it must be at Q's house.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[cavalier]

When I read stories like yours Faithful, I do wonder what might have been.
In truth though, these feelings have never lasted. I have doubted that we made the right decision.
Yes, the intention of abortion is to stop life, but so is the wearing of a condom (given you're not worried about STD's), so is withdrawing.

I do not believe that abortion is murder. I realise that some of you will disagree with me, but this does not trouble me any more than the fact that I disagree with you, troubles you.
I accept that God may not agree, but I know and God will know that my actions were based on love. If there is something to forgive I believe God will forgive.

 

[Saltmeister]

When I read stories like yours Faithful, I do wonder what might have been.
In truth though, these feelings have never lasted. I have doubted that we made the right decision.
Yes, the intention of abortion is to stop life, but so is the wearing of a condom (given you're not worried about STD's), so is withdrawing.

I do not believe that abortion is murder. I realise that some of you will disagree with me, but this does not trouble me any more than the fact that I disagree with you, troubles you.
I accept that God may not agree, but I know and God will know that my actions were based on love. If there is something to forgive I believe God will forgive.

With this debate on anti-abortion and pro-choice, I think the interesting points people have raised is that many of you consider abortion to be "murder" or "avoiding responsibility." I'm thinking that although abortion may be a moral issue, I'm not exactly in favour of the idea of it being a legal issue.

Sure, abortion may be seen as one of the most dirtiest acts we can do as human beings in the way of getting someone pregnant and stopping a life because we were too cowardly to accept the consequences of having fun.

But, should we change the legal system to ban it?

It makes sex sound like criminal behaviour. Do you think people who recklessly have sex should be deemed "criminals?" The thing about making abortion illegal is that it sounds like a criminal offence. I don't think abortionees deserve that "label." Imagine turning up to an abortion clinic where everyone looks at you in that shameful way as if they think you're a murderer. Not all moral issues require a legal equivalent. We all screw up, or someone else screws us up. Consider the possibilities.

1) You were raped
2) You had sex because you had emotional needs
3) The couple were drunk
4) Your boyfriend or husband left you
5) It's impossible to support the child financially
6) The shame of not bringing up the child properly is worse than aborting it

Reckless sexual interactions are small issues that can accidentally become big issues. Consider all the other blunders in life that we make that don't require "abortions." Also consider that fact that it's an issue women have to deal with that men don't. Aren't we making life a bit unfair for women? Unwanted pregnancies and abortions are certainly a very dirty and unclean matter but that's life. The world isn't perfect.

Moreover, I don't agree with the idea of making rules like that. I don't agree with the idea of always having to shape a legal system to achieve justice. Justice isn't about legal systems and having rules. Justice is about resolution of damage done to the personal dignity of people. While murder itself may be a violation of one's personal dignity, the dignity of the person killed, I think it's most valid when that person has actually set foot in this world. An unborn baby has not yet set foot in this world. The personal dignity of that life is less important than the mother. That life has not lived. A life unborn has less need for fulfillment than one that is already alive. A life that has not lived is better off than one that is already living. Abortion, therefore, spares the unborn life of the pains in this world. Don't we all want the best for each other? Isn't that what Justice is about? Healing and compensation? Resolution and reconciliation?

The mother has been alive longer. We all have a life story. We all want to be valued and appreciated for who we are and what we've done. That's what it means to have dignity. The mother may see abortion as a well of restoring that dignity and honour. It's a chance to start afresh after some bad choices. In addition, what's happened is not always the mother's fault. There may have been things that happened in her life that have driven her to that decision.

Justice isn't about legal systems and making rules. A legal system is just an implementation of the ideals of justice, but it is driven by assumptions on what justice means and how it's defined. Let's not dehumanise and impersonalise justice. Justice is about resolution of damage done to one's dignity. Justice is personal. This is why I think the mother should be able to make her own decision. It's her life. It's her choice.

Justice is not always as systematic as we think. Sometimes it's as simple as seeing, hoping for and desiring the best in people. Justice is not all cold-blooded calculation and no heart. Justice is about what we value, what we love. I agree that abortion is a dirty deed, but it may actually be a necessary one.

Legal systems run on utilitarian value. It's about getting everyone to follow the same rules. But if we all have to follow the same rules then we're ignoring that everyone is different. We suggest that your life story, your thoughts, feelings and emotions don't matter. So how do you feel about that? Do you appreciate that? Do you feel unimportant? If so, then you're right. Legal systems do have a way of becoming impersonal and dehumanising.

A legal system is just a structural and systematic framework with rules, protocols, processes, checks and balances to implement what one defines as "justice." But it treats everyone the same. It assumes that one shoe fits all sizes.

I guess my question is -- do you really know what Justice really means? Is there really one single answer to that question? We've all been taught that justice comes from a legal system, but do we realise it's just an implementation? Point -- the legal system is not "God." Are we trying to "create God" with our legal system?

Does it really mean abortion should be illegal? Does it mean everything that is a moral issue should be implemented in a legal system? Do you consider legal systems to have limitations, in terms of appreciating the social and emotional element of human existence?