Proverbs

[Cage]

What is the "fear of the lord" that Soloman spoke of in Proverbs?

Proverbs 2

1. My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2. So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3. Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4. If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5. Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

I think many mainstream Christians view it as 'respect', or actual 'fear' of God, but I there's more to it than that. If we are to understand the knowledge of God, then it's nescessary to understand the fear of the Lord, right? I think it's also nescessary if we are to understand Solomans Proverbs in the right light.

Proverbs 1

7. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.


Proverbs 9

10. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


I've been reading that book lately and was wondering what the liberal Christians thought. I have my own views, but want to hear what others think before I make them known. I think I've been lacking in this department, so I'm really just looking for different perspectives right now.

It's not conventional wisdom, right? This kind of wisdom was present in the beginning with God according to Soloman...

Proverbs 8

23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Thanks, and...


Much Love,

 

[wil]

I have been told that the hebrew word that is translated into fear has no direct translation, but means more in the line of honor and respect than fear.

But then I was told that I should learn the language myself rather than rely on others for information.

 

[seattlegal]

5. Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

I think of fear as a warning device to steer clear of something.

{Isn't it interesting that we have the tradition to use scary images as warning labels, like the old skull and crossbones on bottles of poison?}

 

[wil]

I think of fear as a warning device to steer clear of something.

Namaste Seattlegal...

love your new avatar by the way...loved the old one too....I was gone a week come back and see these avatar changes on the board and was soooo confused....who are these people??

anywhoo.....steer clear of??

I prefer to nestle right in there like a grandchild in gramma's lap in the rockin chair... askin questions with the same amazement as a kid the first time they have a magnifying glass in their hands...

If I were on the wrong side of the law, I'd have a fear of reprisal. But one that is on the right side of the law, has no worry (of course it is different when they keep changing the laws)

With G-d I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them. The laws have been laid down, I have no need to fear G-d, the reprisals in this case are clear and caused by my actions, no tit for tat, no eye for an eye, I pushed the pendelum and unless I now act to get out of the way (forgive, repent, wake up) it is coming swinging back and I will learn what momentum, acceleration and inertia are....and gain a respect for the law.

But fear of G-d, steer clear of G-d...no, I am 100% comforted that I am in the midst..that there is no where I can go without having the love and understanding that is...

 

[Cage]

My fear is walking in a manner contrary to what I hold as truth. I fear that lack of compassion, or rather lack of understanding of what it entails, has lead me to cast some stones, when what I hold as truth should lead me to acceptance, and not its opposite. To walk contrary to my personal beleifs could cause delimma, I think?

In other words, knowing/understanding 'what' and what 'not' to do is wisdom, and it's difficult at times. (Love, compassion, understanding, and discretion.) The fear of the Lord is walking contrary to these values for me, and it is also what I am beginng to see as Solomans wisdom.



Love,

 

[seattlegal]

My fear is walking in a manner contrary to what I hold as truth. I fear that lack of compassion, or rather lack of understanding of what it entails, has lead me to cast some stones, when what I hold as truth should lead me to acceptance, and not its opposite. To walk contrary to my personal beleifs could cause delimma, I think?

In other words, knowing/understanding 'what' and what 'not' to do is wisdom, and it's difficult at times. (Love, compassion, understanding, and discretion.) The fear of the Lord is walking contrary to these values for me, and it is also what I am beginng to see as Solomans wisdom.



Love,

If someone you loved was about to unknowingly walk down what you knew to be a dangerous path, would it not be compassionate to forewarn them?

 

[Cage]

If someone you loved was about to unknowingly walk down what you knew to be a dangerous path, would it not be compassionate to forewarn them?

I guess it depends on the circumstance, seattlegal. Like how dangerous is the path, and can it lead to a good end if experienced? I think mistakes are of nescessity and can lead to correction if that person is willing to see it. The truth is a person can only lead inasmuch as he/she can see, and its hard to know the end of any given path. The blind leading the blind so to speak. (for me anyway, I have but a narrow view)

I know what I believe in, and I can somewhat see what it entails for myself, but the path of others is very hard for me to see, as I am doing my own traveling. If they are walking contrary to what I view as light, then I might suggest a different perspective as they walk that path, but it's not for me turn them from it unless it could be deadly, right?

Now, if others see me walking on a dangerous path, I would very much like to be warned. I'm willing to open myself up for correction (for the most part) whereas some others may not be. The hard part is knowing who is open minded enough to accept correction, or a bit of guidence. Of course this is a personal thing, and we all have different views of what's right.

It's a very tough call, seattlegal. I truly want the best for others, but what if what I view as the best really isn't the best for them? Sometimes compassion is allowing others their comfort, and not aggrevating their minds, right? Love is simple, but compassion a bit more complex, I think? That's why I'm trying to understand different views, as I believe there is favor in most everyone.


Love,

 

[wil]

My fear is walking in a manner contrary to what I hold as truth.

Namaste Cage,

This is the game of life...
first we wander without a care...
and then we eventually see the error in our ways...
we have to go through the regret of our past...
and then forgiving ourselves...
we want others to have what we now have...
till they push us away...
and we see the error in our ways...
and we learn to temper ourselves..
we step off the path (a manner contrary)
and identify that...
[we should truly revel in the fact that we have identified the path and that we stepped off, for there was a time...when none of it mattered...(oops thats me)]

Seems we'll always have something to work with, always be growing, always occasionally not meeting upto our own standards.

Its learning to correct those moments before they happen...while in the midst of being contrary...and when I slip up apologizing quickly...

its called life...

 

[Cage]

Namaste Cage,

This is the game of life...
first we wander without a care...
and then we eventually see the error in our ways...
we have to go through the regret of our past...
and then forgiving ourselves...
we want others to have what we now have...
till they push us away...
and we see the error in our ways...
and we learn to temper ourselves..
we step off the path (a manner contrary)
and identify that...
[we should truly revel in the fact that we have identified the path and that we stepped off, for there was a time...when none of it mattered...(oops thats me)]

Seems we'll always have something to work with, always be growing, always occasionally not meeting upto our own standards.

Its learning to correct those moments before they happen...while in the midst of being contrary...and when I slip up apologizing quickly...

its called life...

Life is quite the journey, isn't it?



Love,

 

[JosephM]

Hello Cage,

yir'ah, yir-aw'; feminine of Hebrew 3373 (yare'); fear (also used as infinitive); moral reverence :- × dreadful, × exceedingly, fear (-fulness).

It seems to me that moral reverence is more applicable than fear. Why? Because perfect love casteth out fear. There is no room in love for fear.

On the otherhand, I personally see the whole concept of fear of the Lord to be a myth. To me it sounds more like something those in power would say or write to followers of a low conscious level with intent to keep the carnal nature in check. In the reality of love no fear exists and fear is just a concept of mind. A relative absence of Love is fear and as we go to a greater absence we arrive at a concept we call hate. Fear and hate seem to go hand in hand. Just some thoughts to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[flowperson]

I have always viewed the OT G-d as the G-d of fear and jealousy, and the G-d of the NT as the G-d of all-encompassing love. Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts ?

flow....

 

[Cage]

I have always viewed the OT G-d as the G-d of fear and jealousy, and the G-d of the NT as the G-d of all-encompassing love. Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts ?

flow....

I get confused about this, lol! I was going to write what I thought, then decided I had no idea what I was talking about, hahah!

Whats your take?


Love,

 

[flowperson]

I get confused about this, lol! I was going to write what I thought, then decided I had no idea what I was talking about, hahah!

Whats your take?


Love,

It's OK Cage...confusion is the general condition of the world these days IMO.

But I was trying to say that the G-d of the OT seems to me to focus on punishing wrongdoing, holds grudges, and even states several times that He is a jealous G-d.

However the G-d revealed to us in the NT is predominantly a G-d of forgiveness and all-encompassing love without much of the punishment stuff. What do you think about this distinction, and why do you believe there is this difference between the two images and concepts ?

flow....

 

[path_of_one]

It's OK Cage...confusion is the general condition of the world these days IMO.

But I was trying to say that the G-d of the OT seems to me to focus on punishing wrongdoing, holds grudges, and even states several times that He is a jealous G-d.

However the G-d revealed to us in the NT is predominantly a G-d of forgiveness and all-encompassing love without much of the punishment stuff. What do you think about this distinction, and why do you believe there is this difference between the two images and concepts ?

flow....

Personally, I think people learned better. Or at least some people learned better (recent polls show there is still a lot of people in the US who believe God is at best distant and at worst jealous, angry, and vindictive).

My experience has been that if we love God, we do not fear Him. We trust that He knows that we love Him and we are trying to please Him because of this love, and that His grace is sufficient.

I think "fear" in those passages is really something like "awesome respect." There was no really good English translation, and I think when it was translated, "fear" worked better for controlling people.

The closest I can come to an explanation of what I mean by "awesome respect" is what I also feel for nature- for wilderness. I do not fear wild places- I love them and I find them refreshing. But I have a very healthy understanding of the power in them (whether it be fire, wind, water, animals, whatever) and I respect that. I know I am very small and weak compared to that power. Multiply that by several degrees and you get how I feel about God.

 

[lunamoth]

Personally, I think people learned better. Or at least some people learned better (recent polls show there is still a lot of people in the US who believe God is at best distant and at worst jealous, angry, and vindictive).

My experience has been that if we love God, we do not fear Him. We trust that He knows that we love Him and we are trying to please Him because of this love, and that His grace is sufficient.

I think "fear" in those passages is really something like "awesome respect." There was no really good English translation, and I think when it was translated, "fear" worked better for controlling people.

The closest I can come to an explanation of what I mean by "awesome respect" is what I also feel for nature- for wilderness. I do not fear wild places- I love them and I find them refreshing. But I have a very healthy understanding of the power in them (whether it be fire, wind, water, animals, whatever) and I respect that. I know I am very small and weak compared to that power. Multiply that by several degrees and you get how I feel about God.

Great reply Path and I agree with this (so what else is new ). Good to see you back posting again!

luna

 

[JosephM]

I have always viewed the OT G-d as the G-d of fear and jealousy, and the G-d of the NT as the G-d of all-encompassing love. Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts ?

flow....

Most definitly Flow,

It seems to me the God of the OT is a projection of God from the standpoint of the ego of man. And the NT is a projection of God from the divine spirit in man. But if any are offended by that, it is only my perception at this time.


Love in Christ,
Jm

 

[path_of_one]

Great reply Path and I agree with this (so what else is new ). Good to see you back posting again!

luna

Thanks, Luna! I am still working on the dissertation, but I'm trying to find a little balance- it seems like I just work, work, work. I had to get a little escape to CR again.

 

[path_of_one]

Most definitly Flow,

It seems to me the God of the OT is a projection of God from the standpoint of the ego of man. And the NT is a projection of God from the divine spirit in man. But if any are offended by that, it is only my perception at this time.


Love in Christ,
Jm

Rather than be offended, I find this closely matches what I would think as well, and it's put much more succinctly than I'd be able to put it.

 

[Dondi]

I have always viewed the OT G-d as the G-d of fear and jealousy, and the G-d of the NT as the G-d of all-encompassing love. Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts ?

flow....

Not with verses such as this:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matt. 10:28

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." - Luke 12:5

But I think of fear as having regard for God. God is God. He is the Creator of the Universe. He is so All-Powerful, He could wipe us out of existance in a single instant if He wanted to. He can squash us like a bug. His Holiness is such that even Isaiah, after giving stern rebuke and "Woes" in Chapter 5 to the people of Israel, is suddenly overwhelmed in Chapter 6 with his own woe, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

People who have no regard for God do not know what they are in for. Do you suppose that they will be able to stand before Almighty God so non-chalantly?

The NT is replete with people and exhortations to fear God, while at the same time told not to fear.

"And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles." - Acts 2:43

"And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things." - Acts 5:5

"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." - Acts 10:1-2

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." - 2 Corinthians 7:1

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." - Ephesians 5:21

You have to have a fear of God, not in the cowering sense, but in the sense that you recognize God in your life. That you are accountable to Him in all your thoughts and actions. It is a fear that drives one to submit to His Love. You cannot experience God's Love until you've experienced that fear.

THEN when you have humbled yourself before God and He has granted you forgiveness, mercy, and grace, God will fill you with the Love that does not fear.

 

[flowperson]

Sorry Dondi:

AS I stated on another thread, some of us don't believe as you do, and quoting bible verse is not going to change me, at least. That is not a general overview that you have presented, but specific references to support your contentions.

We all know that one can find bible references to support any specific argument. This sort of "coercion" into love that you refer to, or rather the appearance of love, is not an all encompassing love at all and can never be IMO. It cannot be honest because the fear present at its roots always causes resentment and loathing down deep. Love cannot grow in such a polluted garden of the soul. "Respectful love" and "fear of power" that can crush us like we were bugs are two entirely different concepts.

Respect connotes a bilateral, conversational, and mutually beneficial relationship. What you have described and supported connotes a master and slave relationship to me. What I was referring to in contrasting the OT G-d to the NT G-d was to illuminate that the G-d of the OT generally evoked a master-slave relationship and that the NT G-d generally evokes a mutually respectful relationship of trust from which love tends to naturally evolve.

I understand your viewpoint and belief in this discussion, but as I said, you cannot convince me that this is the "way" that Jesus came here to teach us about. I've just seen and experienced too much to the contrary to allow me to be.

flow....